Sig Banshee with chopped nose

I 've read on the Alameda Aeromaniacs webpage that it recommended to shorten the nose of the Sig Banshee 1 - 1 1/2 inches ( for the record, Sig also enclosed a small bit on this in the kit ). Has anyone flown their Banshee with this modification and, if so, what were the results and your impressions.

DAVE

I've got a banshee with a shortened nose - the nose is somewhere in the range of 6 inches - the kit was given to me this way - I cut the turtle deck back and added a cheek cowl and a chin cowl to it - mostly for looks but the other benefit was that these mods strengthened the front end and added some wieght back to the front where I needed it. The plane balance an inch and a quarter behind the L.E. and the plane flew very well - I also have a slightly larger stab and elevator on my plane as well. It's got a KB stallion unmuffled and a Perfect #11 - I also added wheel pants and LG fairings as well

I didn't really plan this - the kit I got was a hodge podge of parts from a more experienced builder so I may have just been lucky with this particular plane.

I'm wondering if the Aeromaniacs read Len's bit on "Your Nose is too long".

DAVE

If built with any one of the modern 35 -40 size Schnurle-ported engines. Like the OS FP, LA, Magnums, etc., The nose needs to be shorter in order to balance at the design CG. These engines are all heavier than an un-muffled Fox 35 by a good bit--plus the muffler makes it worse. If left un-bobbed, you will need to add un-wanted weight to the tail to get it in balance.

They fly very well by the way. Make it straight and as light as you can.

FWIW

>I'm wondering if the Aeromaniacs read Len's bit on "Your
>Nose is too long".
>

The nose-cutting-off idea long predates the SSW website! In fact, it probably predates the internet in total by about 25 years! Even "in the day" the model was know to come out nose heavy almost all the time, even with a Fox, particularly if it came out light.

Of course, you don't just cut off the nose. You shorten the nose during construction and scoot the motor mounts back accordingly, so that you will still get the full length of mount. May seem obvious, but apparently not to everyone.

Thanks. BTW, I took your suggestion and put O.S.25 FP-S on the Twister. Smith's 4 oz. metal tank with muffler pressure. Absolutely one of the sweetest set-ups I've ever had. I haven't had the pleasure to see what it will do in the heavier winds, but a great Sunday sport flyer by all accounts. Thanks for the input.

DAVE

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 05:25 PM (CDT)
 
>Thanks. BTW, I took your suggestion and put O.S.25 FP-S on
>the Twister. Smith's 4 oz. metal tank with muffler pressure.

Ok, if the Twister will fly good with a modern .25 on it wouldn't the banshee also? Would you still need to perform rhinoplasty and rear implant surgery?

Edit for spelling

>>Thanks. BTW, I took your suggestion and put O.S.25 FP-S on
>>the Twister. Smith's 4 oz. metal tank with muffler pressure.
>
>Ok, if the Twister will fly good with a modern .25 on it
>wouldn't the banshee also?

Except for the fuse and wingtips, it's darn near the same airplane.

Would you still need to perform
>rhinoplasty and rear implant surgery?

Probably. I seem to recall that back in the day, when a modified Banshee with a Veco 19BB was the hot setup for WAM "A" Stunt, they shortened the nose. The FP is heavier than the Veco, with the preferred stock muffler.

I have built nine of the Banshees, I would say that you really need to do as the plans say and shorten the nose about an inch and a half for the fox stunt 35. For heavier engines you will need to shorten it even more, or else add lead to get it to balance. I put ST G-21/46 engines in two of mine and had to shorten the nose 2 1/2 inches before it would balance without a BIG chunk of lead on the tail. I lengthened the motor mount beams back to the LE of the wing so that all I had to do was just cut the outboard ply doubler out farther back to accomodate the engine case, and then re shape the nose around the engine to make it look good. On two of the Banshees, I sheeted the leading edge back to the spars and that made it fly much better than the stock version.
I currently have two kits, but no flyable ones.

Bigiron

Marvin,

I take it that the added weight of the sheeting wasn't really a factor. What you say certainly makes sense and since the wing is not yet covered, this could still be accomplished and would add a structural strength bonus as well as keeping the covering from sagging into the rib bays. Thanks for your help.

DAVE

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 04:15 PM (CDT)
 
Leftwing, if the wing is already built, do not try to add LE sheeting as after the fact. You will have to cut the ribs down to allow for thickness of the sheeting and then add capstrips etc. I cut all ribs like the center section ribs and then sheeted the center section and LE with the same thickness sheet and then added cap strips to bring the rib contour up to the plan size. I built those planes to use in a team stunt show program that me and my son used to perform at shows. (We had GOOD mufflers of course) Back to back wing overs, simultaneous consecutive loops and eights (vertical as well as horizontal, one flying upright and the other inverted for head-on passes etc. loads of fun, but often hard on planes. One time in the back to back wingovers, we got a wee mite too close to each other directly overhead and my engine gnawed on his outboard wing. We had two other identical planes for backup for just such emergencies.

If you wish, you can call me on the land line and I will be happy to give you more input. I even went so far as to make templates from 1/16" ply so I could clone them.

My phone# is (316)838-8494 Bigiron aka Marvin Denny
I am the central daylight time zone

Not bad for an old notorious combat legend.

DAVE

You mean Race God.

The last two Banshee's I've built I cut 2 inches off the nose and added 3 inches behind the wing. Increased the size of the tail by about 2 inches as well and powered it with an os40fp. It is a good flying combination.

Flushing Meadows era stuff. Shorten the nose about 2 inches. S.O.P. for Sig Banshees. Build straight, Sig Banshees seemed to be intolerant of misalignment.

>Flushing Meadows era stuff. Shorten the nose about 2 inches.
>S.O.P. for Sig Banshees. Build straight, Sig Banshees seemed
>to be intolerant of misalignment.

Mr. Graham, would you mind restating this for me? My brain hurts a lot when thinking of a straight airplane which is also misaligned. Or are you intentionally creating a conundrum?

The SIG folk--best friends CL Guys have ever had--were most unhappy with me following some sort of review of their Banshee and in which I bitched about the long nose, especially since I did not have the good sense to shorten it during construction.

While it may have been a coincidence, I am told it wasn't too long afterward that instruction set modified to suggest exactly what I should have done in the first place.

>>Flushing Meadows era stuff. Shorten the nose about 2 inches.
>>S.O.P. for Sig Banshees. Build straight, Sig Banshees seemed
>>to be intolerant of misalignment.
>
>Mr. Graham, would you mind restating this for me? My brain
>hurts a lot when thinking of a straight airplane which is
>also misaligned. Or are you intentionally creating a
>conundrum?
>
>
>>Dan

Your right Dan. Improper wording.
Make sure you take care to build the Banshee especially straight. While most profiles (most stunt ships for that matter)- need to be built straight for best flight performance, my personal experience with the Banshee's is build them REALLY straight. The high percentage of formally educated participants on this Forum dictates the need to write clearly and concisely. As Martha Stewart would say, "It's a Good Thing."

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-04 AT 04:13 PM (CDT)
 
>Your right Dan. Improper wording.
>The high percentage of formally
>educated participants on this Forum dictates the need to
>write clearly and concisely. As Martha Stewart would say,
>"It's a Good Thing."

Ah, the most unkind cut of all, quoting Ms. Stewart.

And yet it is really hard to not feel a bit of pity for this woman. Found guilty of lying about a crime she did not commit? Give me a break, "It's most definitely *not* a good thing!"

>The SIG folk--best friends CL Guys have ever had--were most
>unhappy with me following some sort of review of their
>Banshee and in which I bitched about the long nose,
>especially since I did not have the good sense to shorten it
>during construction.
>
>While it may have been a coincidence, I am told it wasn't
>too long afterward that instruction set modified to suggest
>exactly what I should have done in the first place.

Which makes one wonder why they still sell the kit with the long nose. The Banshee could be a nice, out of the box kit with just a few simple mods.

V/r

I have 2 banshees. I simply moved the wing forward 1 1/2 inches. They both fly great and balanced well with a fox 35. I personally like this better than shortening the nose. Lee

>I have 2 banshees. I simply moved the wing forward 1 1/2
>inches. They both fly great and balanced well with a fox
>35. I personally like this better than shortening the nose.

That's probably better, but it's also more difficult.

>
>>The SIG folk--best friends CL Guys have ever had--were most
>>unhappy with me following some sort of review of their
>>Banshee and in which I bitched about the long nose,
>>especially since I did not have the good sense to shorten it
>>during construction.
>>
>>While it may have been a coincidence, I am told it wasn't
>>too long afterward that instruction set modified to suggest
>>exactly what I should have done in the first place.
>
>Which makes one wonder why they still sell the kit with the
>long nose. The Banshee could be a nice, out of the box kit
>with just a few simple mods.
>
>V/r
>
>Bob Kruger

Yes, some "mysteries" are just so hard to figure out. My guess is tooling costs, modified plan set, updated instructions (assuming pictures are involved), all slapped up against a mature product in their line, and a low-volume kit at that.

Even if Mikey were to do the work for free--and I don't believe he does free at this point in his life--it would still add to cost of each kit.

The SIG Banshee **is** a nice, out-of-the-box kit, one which responds well to simple modifications, at least one of which the good folk at SIG were kind enough to mention in an updated set of instructions.

Ditto.
I have also built and flown banshees in there stock form - the balance is forward a bit but the plane still responds well - especially for a beginner/still learning pilot. I have a second banshee that is stock and a banshee wing in a p40 look alike - this is a very proven design that is easy to modify slightly to get a whole new flavor of airplane.

Joe:

Where are you at in Philly ? I'm just down the road in Newark, DE.

DAVE

Right down the road from Penn valley hobbyshop in Lansdale. At least til the end of the month.

I bought a fox 35 from somone down your way who was getting out of the hobby - pretty nice engine for next to nothing.