7 minutes??

Is the US going to a 7 minute time limit?

Not unless someone has started the AMA rules change process.

Are they?

>Is the US going to a 7 minute time limit?

Not this time around, as far as I know.

Is there any reason to go to 7 minutes?

The only good reason I can think of is to get one more stunt flyer through in one hour. But is that any advantage at all. Mayber if you have 30 plus in one skill class. It might shorten the day by one hour for the judges.

Seven minutes is a tough target to strive for.....those that I know that try out for the US Team are always a bit taken aback by the 7 minute limit when they first practice for FAI....
A 7 minute limit might serve to ease judge boredom, and is another challange.

See Ya

>Seven minutes is a tough target to strive for.....those that
>I know that try out for the US Team are always a bit taken
>aback by the 7 minute limit when they first practice for
>FAI....

You have to pay a little more attention to getting started quickly, I imagine that everywhere except big contests with the top competitors, the day would actually take longer, because if the engine doesn't start in the first 15 seconds or so, you have to take an attempt.

we strive to gt a run between 6:30 and 6:45 now. It is the same process to find a seven minute flight time as it is to find an 8 minute flight time. At most contests I attend, the majority of the fliers are in the ready box prepared to move onto the circle as soon as the last flier is coming off. I would have no problem with a 7 minute limit. We work very hard to establish a quick starting procedure, and still feel the remains of the 1:00 min. from signal to launch bonus points.
I don't think that a Beginner or Intermediate should be held tothis, though. But Advanced and Expert should have no problem.
Anyways, when the pattern is over I want to get on the ground rather quickly!
Bill <><

I fly 5.85 laps, and sometimes a tad slower, on 70 ft. lines. This makes it almost impossible to get a 7 minute run. I usually get down at 7:15 with only 2-4 laps after the clover. My motor is beeping before the clover. (Cant fit any more fuel into the tank.)

I guess I would have to shorten the lines.

Steve had a funny idea. Give a bonus for flights finished under 6 minutes total. Steve gets the G Nobler down at 5:45...

I am with Brett I bet it would actually make contests longer due to people very quick to take attempts.

It's my feeling that the "higher" the class, the closer to 7 minutes things go, and the quicker that the contestants march through the circle. I have been to contests where Beginners take twice the time, per flight, than Experts....they just aren't as "ready".

A pit boss like the Woodster is what makes things work, not a minute difference in time.
At the W.C.'s things seemed more like waiting for fertilizer to kick in rather than the usual glue drying process that we see here in the USA.

See Ya

Paul Smith

I guess the question is: "Why should the US use 8 minutes while the World standard is 7 ???"

Two answers:

1. It takes a little more skill to measure the fuel and get the engine run uder 7 and still complete the pattern.

2. The 7-minute rule prevents extremely slow airplanes from completing the pattern.

Obviously, the real "world class" flyers have learned to live with 7 minutes.

Unfortunately, AMA rules changes are voted on by 11 guys that don't always listen. I'd vote for 7 minutes if I had a vote.

I am fairly sure that if you were to stand by and watch, you would find that 99% of the class flyers from Intermediate to open are finished flying before the seven minute mark.

However just because the world is flying the seven minute rule doesn't make it the standard! I sure if the PAMPA or CLAPA both (SIG's) with the backing of their members, expressed to AMA the need for a rule change there would be a vote. Still what would be the expected gain? One flyer more per hour.

I don't see this as a big deal.

>I am fairly sure that if you were to stand by and watch, you
>would find that 99% of the class flyers from Intermediate to
>open are finished flying before the seven minute mark.
>
>However just because the world is flying the seven minute
>rule doesn't make it the standard! I sure if the PAMPA or
>CLAPA both (SIG's) with the backing of their members,
>expressed to AMA the need for a rule change there would be a
>vote. Still what would be the expected gain? One flyer more
>per hour.
>
>I don't see this as a big deal.
>
>Mike Clark

One flyer more per hour could be important at a contest with many entries (or when the thunderstorm is lurking on the horizon). But I think you are right, Mike. Most people are done before 7 minutes. We usually try for about 6 minutes 20 seconds. Give 5 or 10 seconds (on a bad day) to start the engine, and we are done in 6 1/2 minutes. And easily, on a real bad day, under 7. So, whether the limit is 7 or 8 or 12 becomes really immaterial. What is material is how long the people are actually taking, not what is allotted. As soon as one flyer is done and off the circle, on comes the next. So, except for the one or two stragglers who would have otherwise been penalized with over runs had they been limited to 7 minutes, it will make very little if any difference at all to the contest as a whole. Perhaps that is why no proposals have been made in that direction.

I agree with you Len. Most time is lost by people who wait until they get into the circle to start getting ready to start. They SHOULD be fueled and ready to go when the previous flier lands. Moving in as the last flier is moving out. I have seen as much as 10 minutes lapse from the time one plane lands and the next SIGNALS that he is ready to start. That amounts to one flight slot lost.

Bigiron

That's my point, Marv....the Experts seem to be, as a whole, ready....there stuff has fuel in it, starts, and there are no surprises .... I would venture that actual flight time is about the same per class.

See Ya

Rich, Big iron, et.al., (never met that et al guy)

I agree. I am not an Expert class flier, but I try to get on and off the circle as quickly as possible, with out rushing. I fuel up when the flier in the circle is in his hourglass.

Anytime that Aaron, and I, are flying the complete pattern we time the flight from start signal to roll out end.

Can anyone tell me why/when the 5 point one minute start was dropped?
(it was 5 points wasn't it?)

Thanks
Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-04 AT 12:58 PM (CDT)
 
>Paul Smith
>
>I guess the question is: "Why should the US use 8 minutes
>while the World standard is 7 ???"

Uh, *FAI* standard is 7 minutes. Given that that probably represents around 50% of the world's stunt fliers, the rest being from the US, that doesn't exactly make it the "world standard". Half the world standard, maybe.

I see no intrinsic value in complying with FAI rules just because other countries use them. 15-20 people have to do something a little different once every two years. That didn't seem to cause a whole lot of problem for them this time around.

But there is a whopping big down side, in that the FAI rule change process is not at all accessible to the participants in the event, and in fact are frequently decided by people not involved in the events.

AMA has a CLPA contest board. We know who is on it, they are all involved in the event, and they are charged with taking input from the pilots.

>
>Two answers:
>
>1. It takes a little more skill to measure the fuel and get
>the engine run uder 7 and still complete the pattern.
>
>2. The 7-minute rule prevents extremely slow airplanes from
>completing the pattern.
>
>Obviously, the real "world class" flyers have learned to
>live with 7 minutes.

Right, it's not a problem in Expert or Open, or FAI. It's a problem for lower skill classes because of the "attempt" rule. But of course, if it's not a problem, and most people get down in less than 7 anyway, changing the time limit wouldn't matter in terms of how long it takes to run a contest.

My assesment is that if you change the rule, most people are unaffected, and some people end up taking attempts and making the contest longer, not shorter.

>
>Unfortunately, AMA rules changes are voted on by 11 guys
>that don't always listen. I'd vote for 7 minutes if I had a
>vote.

Which is a whole heck of a lot better than what you get in FAI!!!!

The Contest Board listens. But they don't just instantly comply with any scheme proposed. Which this *hasn't* been, as far as I know. If it were, I would strongly argue against such a proposal, as it has negligible value in time savings and does induce people to rush to get their flights started.

I would vote against it also. "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Bigiron

Paul:
Campaign to be a Contest Board member....that way you could become part of the problem.

See Ya

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-04 AT 10:52 PM (CDT)
 
My view is that we could change the time limit to 7 minutes, in order to make the event seem even more impossible for the newguys, or we could leave it alone, so the event would stay relaxed and more enjoyable. Which makes more sense, when we are trying to grow the sport? Many times (when judging), I check my watch when the flier has finished the pattern, and frequently it is around 5:30 > 5:45. The judges need a minute or two between flights, too...need drink, need raingear, score runner didn't show, etc. Steve

PS: One thing the FAI doesn't recognize, is that it takes a lot of fliers to fly an event and make it interesting, exciting and worth doing. Their focus is only on the World Championships, and should be on aeromodeling as a whole, supporting and leading people to the W.Champs. Did Sandy Pimmenoff make an annoyance of himself as usual? Send me a PM if you have a story...

LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-04 AT 04:19 PM (CDT)
 
>Is the US going to a 7 minute time limit?
7 minutes

The advantage of a forum like the Stuka Stunt Forum is that topics can be discussed world wide, not only nation wide.
I do not rate the “ 7 minute rule “ a very important issue. The question whether we can fly 7 or 8 minutes doesn’t have much actual impact on contest procedures. However I do not like the way this topic is handled.
Among other topics this one is typical to describe the difference between the FAI and the AMA world. Please note : it’s not the technical aspect - it’s the viewpoint. To insist on a national view doesn’t help to solve problems.
I’m a member of the CIAM control line subcommittee ( CIAM = International Committee of Aero Modelling = the aeromodelling department of FAI ). So I know how this group of people works. I cannot say that I’m overly enthusiastic about how this group works. It just works as any democratic institution in our world works. And the US is part of this institution. To think that this group is working any worse than any other group is simply stupid.
In the forum I read several statements, like:
“just because the world standard is flying the 7 minute rule doesn’t make it the standard.”
“… that probably represents around 50 % of the world stunt fliers … the rest being from the US … half the world standard maybe … see no intrinsic value in complying with FAI rules just because other countries use them … “
This seems to be a very widespread viewpoint in America. We are Americans, we live in America, and we don’t care about the rest of the world. Have you ever considered the reaction of this rest of the world?
Please be assured that I know about this “number” problem, I have discussed it many times with my American friends. The fact that only one voice represents a whole nation when it comes to voting is not a new problem. Actually it exists in any election process. I have to admit that I cannot offer the perfect solution. When you have found a perfect solution, please stand up and let us hear. I’ve had a conversation with Ted Fancher concerning this topic. Maybe he’ll find a way to come closer to the ideal.
Now let’s come back to those 7 minutes technical wise. Someone claimed to fly 5.85 lap times, which might give him problems with the 7 minute rule. I remember very well when I met Jim Casale at a world championship, and I asked him why he didn’t fly those 6 sec lap times which were so popular in America during these times ( at least published in magazines ). Jim answered: if I’d have tried to fly such lap times, I’d not have made the team. So much for lap times! Have you checked the lap times of the American team members at Muncie ? Enough said.
Whatever the practical aspects of this 7 minute rule - there’s one aspect which has been totally ignored. As somebody said: it’s a tough target. Yes, it is. But - what’s wrong with this? Have you been on a typical RC flying field recently? Have you seen the flyer’s ability to start the engines ( pardon - the lack of it ) ? Have you experienced the desperation of sport RC flyers or beginners when their engine didn’t start; even with electric starter !!! When we decide to enter a contest, we know that we should be able to start our engine very quickly. Under FAI rules even within 1 ( ONE ! ) minute ( to get 10 points for starting ). THAT way we have learned to start our engine very quickly. Not only that: we quickly realize what’s wrong with the engine if it doesn’t start instantly! Others just don’t know this. Have you ever watched FAI team race, and how quickly these guys can start their diesels? The rules have forced them to do it, and they have learned it. What’s wrong with that?! We ( stunt flyers ) are the only ones who can start their engines FIRST FLICK - BY HAND ! Have you ever thought about that ?!
I’ve always emphasized the importance of simple rules. I’ve always emphasized the necessity of simple technology, to make our ( aerobatic ) event accessible to people with limited technical knowledge, too. However I do not support the idea of avoiding and deleting challenges. Within the borders of simple technology everybody has the chance to excel. Just learn to start your engine, and calculate the correct tank volume. The “rest of the world” does it quite well ( and, by the way, some Americans, too !).
What I mean to say: a rule is not just a rule to control contest procedures ( or other trivial things). A rule can also guide a contest class into a certain direction, can develop new technologies, or can motivate people to develop skills. Which is not such a bad side effect. After all these skills can help us in other aspects of our life, too.
The 7 minute rule has some other benefits, too. But these are not so important, so I don’t mention them here. I just wanted to open some eyes and minds to be able to consider some deeper understanding of rules, and to allow a glance beyond national borders.
One important note: I DO NOT insist on a 7 minute rule. If necessary I can live with the 8 minute rule. My dream is that we can meet somewhere in the middle and find a rule which can be accepted by all countries. But I also expect other nations to go the same step towards FAI as we have gone in the past - and are willing to go in the future.
7 or 8 minutes is not a technical problem. The viewpoint is.

Regards, claus

LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-04 AT 04:52 PM (CDT)
 
>The advantage of a forum like the Stuka Stunt Forum is that
>topics can be discussed world wide, not only nation wide.
>I do not rate the “ 7 minute rule “ a very important issue.
>The question whether we can fly 7 or 8 minutes doesn’t have
>much actual impact on contest procedures. However I do not
>like the way this topic is handled.
>Among other topics this one is typical to describe the
>difference between the FAI and the AMA world. Please note :
>it’s not the technical aspect - it’s the viewpoint. To
>insist on a national view doesn’t help to solve problems.
>I’m a member of the CIAM control line subcommittee ( CIAM
>= International Committee of Aero Modelling = the
>aeromodelling department of FAI ). So I know how this group
>of people works. I cannot say that I’m overly enthusiastic
>about how this group works. It just works as any democratic
>institution in our world works. And the US is part of this
>institution. To think that this group is working any worse
>than any other group is simply stupid.

Well. I thought I read something in about April from a prominent German CIAM member to the contrary. Have to go find that.

>In the forum I read several statements, like:
>“just because the world standard is flying the 7 minute rule
>doesn’t make it the standard.”
>“… that probably represents around 50 % of the world stunt
>fliers … the rest being from the US … half the world
>standard maybe … see no intrinsic value in complying with
>FAI rules just because other countries use them … “
>This seems to be a very widespread viewpoint in America. We
>are Americans, we live in America, and we don’t care about
>the rest of the world. Have you ever considered the reaction
>of this rest of the world?

We are Americans and will do what's best for Americans is a bad idea? I'm incredulous. Of course. Why should someone flying intermediate in Texas be forced to rush through his pattern because of a rule designed to make the W/C run faster? More generally, why should anyone be subject to rulings that aren't even able to influence from other countries.

As far as CIAM goes, any comparison to the CLPA contest board is strictly coincidental. I can call up my representative any time, or the chairman, any time, and say my piece. They also are required to publish and allow time for comment at every step. As opposed to what happened at the March CIAM meeting, where the previously agreed-to W/C format was torpedoed with no opportunity for comment, and the carefully-crafted compromise rules package was picked apart line by line, also with no opportunity for comment from the general public. Need I also add that we now have CB for each event- so we don't get people from other events, that, no matter how well-meaning, deciding what the stunt rules should be.

Your underlying assumption is that globalism is intrinsically superior to addressing issues at a local or national level. If that's your point it then I (and many other Americans) don't really believe that, then you are precisely correct. The entire concept behind the formation of the country is based on the idea that local problem solving is superior to "one size fits all" central control. That's been getting wheedled away at for years, but the basic idea remains.

What I don't understand is why anyone in another country would care one way or another what we do at local AMA contests? How does it effect you? I'm not confronting you, I really don't understand it. How does it hurt anything to have it be different?

I guess it boils down to why you think having a world standard provides any advantage?

>Now let’s come back to those 7 minutes technical wise.
>Someone claimed to fly 5.85 lap times, which might give him
>problems with the 7 minute rule. I remember very well when
>I met Jim Casale at a world championship, and I asked him
>why he didn’t fly those 6 sec lap times which were so
>popular in America during these times ( at least published
>in magazines ). Jim answered: if I’d have tried to fly such
>lap times, I’d not have made the team. So much for lap
>times! Have you checked the lap times of the American team
>members at Muncie ? Enough said.

Hey, hold on there! That's over the line. I have timed several of Doug's flights and they were definitely in that ballpark even when he finished in the Top 5. So I think the suggestion that it might not be true is way, way, over the line.

I might also point out that there may have been some technical breakthroughs since the last time Jim Casale flew in a W/C. That other people have not chosen to fly so slowly doesn't make it impossible or even unwise. Maybe your standard RTF Discovery Retro models don't like that speed too much, but it's entirely possible. For instance, I was flying about 5.62 this weekend - and I won the contest. I ran about 7:05.

>Have you ever watched FAI team race, and
>how quickly these guys can start their diesels? The rules
>have forced them to do it, and they have learned it. What’s
>wrong with that?! We ( stunt flyers ) are the only ones who
>can start their engines FIRST FLICK - BY HAND ! Have
>you ever thought about that ?!

Yes, indeed we did. Starting points, and the requirement to start the engine by hand, were REMOVED from the AMA rules for *safety reasons*. At Bobby Hunt's proposal, after Jim Casale cut himself severely in the hand trying to start his engine. Interesting convergence of facts, huh?

Of course, you can argue (and several have) that this doesn't entirely sovle the problem but we did indeed change that rule for a reason.

Claus, you know I respect your opinion, but I think you are *way* off base here.

I have no problem with folks that say Raiders first, Chiefs first, Germany first, West-Eastern lower Slovainia first. You live there, you like it there, be proud of the if or move.

I like it here. I'm proud of it here. I like the way we fly the event here. I'm not impressed with the idea of changing something just because someone else does it that way.

As with dropping the hand flip rule and allowing starters, if you can show me a good reason for it, I'll probably go along with it. Starters make sense, though I don't use one, I would have voted for the change. If I was to attack the discipline of Team Race, I'd fly it with FAI rules. I don't know that there are any others, are there?

But you have to have a better reason than everyone else is doing it that way and then belittle my patriotism when I say 'So?'

>. I'm not impressed with the idea of
>changing something just because someone else does it that
>way.

I have to wonder if "the world" thinks less of us because we prefer football to soccer, English to metric, etc. I'm really not trying to start an argument, I just don't understand it. I don't think less of people in, say, Germany, enjoying large quantities of beer at Oktoberfests, even though I don't drink beer myself. It doesn't harm me or offend me that the British, Japanese, and Australians drive on the "wrong" side of the road. Heck, even the EU can't agree on that one.

I know Claus reasonably well, and I have to assume that this is not coming across the way he intended - although his English is infinitely better than my German, (and in fact his English is better than most American's English, too!) I have to wonder if something isn't being lost in translation.

The Australians drive on the wrong side of the road?

Dang, and I was just startin to like them folks too!

I can see doing things engineering wise in one set of units, but you can't just change 3 highways signs in Kansas, you gotta change most if not all of them at once, and that's a bunch. Doubt anyone in California would notice the difference, they measure in hours there. "How far away from work do you live?" "About 3 hours" That could be 5 miles/7.5k for the rest of us. But in Kansas you definatly need to know just how far it is. If it's a mile farther than you thought, it probably isn't worth going too.

Another tempest in a teapot I think.

"the fact that only one voice represents a whole nation when it comes to voting is not a new problem. Actually it exists in any election process. I have to admit that I cannot offer the perfect solution. When you have found a perfect solution, please stand up and let us hear. "

I'd offer the solution that the US Founding Fathers came up with to balance the large states and the small states- a dual legislature with representation by state(the Senate) and representation by population(The House). Along with our much-maligned Electoral College in the Presidential election, all three do an excellent job of balancing the needs and rights of both the small states and the large states. I suspect it would work pretty well for CIAM too.

I've dealt with the CIAM rules process before, and I agree with Brett. The CIAM process leaves too much of the technical aspects to people who are not involved in the events in question. It also is highly politicized and not open to public scrutiny.

>I've dealt with the CIAM rules process before, and I agree
>with Brett. The CIAM process leaves too much of the
>technical aspects to people who are not involved in the
>events in question. It also is highly politicized and not
>open to public scrutiny.

Precisely. I'm perfectly willing to accept representative voting. But not when it's in secret, not when my representation is disproportionately small, and not when I don't really get to have my say.

It's hardly a unique situation for C/L Stunt - I don't think anyone in America who has dealt with the FAI in any event would have anything good to say about it. At least I haven't heard anyone who does - and I used to sit one desk over from a CIAM representative at work. Look what's happened to rocketry - although in that case, the vast majority of the competition fliers *are* Europeans.

As long as what happened in March can still happen, I would very strongly oppose any proposal to "unify" the rules under the FAI banner.

And I STILL haven't heard any good reason, besides vague notions of "world uniformity" (which is a very very bad reason to do anything), that there can't be multiple sets of rules that vary depending on the local conditions and desires.

> And I STILL haven't heard any good reason, besides vague
>notions of "world uniformity" (which is a very very bad
>reason to do anything), that there can't be multiple sets of
>rules that vary depending on the local conditions and
>desires.
I don't think anyone's arguing that there shouldn't be local club, state or country rules if that's what's wanted but if you wanted to fly in a competition run by a local club that had a rule restricting engines to a 40 then you either use a 40 or you don't fly. What if every state in America used different rules? It'd be chaos, but this is avoided by having your AMA rules so you can confidently compete with the same model in any state.

Now consider Europe. Some of those countries are as small as your states, they can cross country borders as quickly as you can cross state borders. How do they avoid the chaos where every country has their own rules? They come under the umbrella of the FAI which controls all types of non military or commercial sporting aviation such as hang gliding, ballooning, parachuting etc. I have no idea why, historically, the FAI came to control all sporting aviation and America didn't but someone, somewhere, had to do it.

Having one set of rules is particularly important if you want to set a world record, let's say in 2.5cc speed. If AMA rules allowed mono-line and unrestricted fuels then no matter how fast the model went it wouldn't be recognised as a world FAI speed record. It'd simply be a local (American) record. Stunt however (along with a couple of other classes) is a purely subjective event so doesn't need to be as strictly regulated as the objective events but regardless, some rules are necessary both at local and world levels.

Of course this "world uniformity" goes far beyond FAI/AMA. In America you have your Indy car racing but how many of them have ever competed in Formula 1 racing when the circuit (circus ) comes to America? Not a single car. Why? Because they don't meet FIA specifications. However there's one advantage to having local rules. They can be changed to suit local conditions as was done many years ago in CanAm racing. The CanAm rules were changed to make the Porsche 917 ineligible because no American car could beat it

>> And I STILL haven't heard any good reason, besides vague
>>notions of "world uniformity" (which is a very very bad
>>reason to do anything), that there can't be multiple sets of
>>rules that vary depending on the local conditions and
>>desires.
>I don't think anyone's arguing that there shouldn't be local
>club, state or country rules if that's what's wanted but if
>you wanted to fly in a competition run by a local club that
>had a rule restricting engines to a 40 then you either use a
>40 or you don't fly. What if every state in America used
>different rules? It'd be chaos, but this is avoided by
>having your AMA rules so you can confidently compete with
>the same model in any state.

Funny you should mention it - there's a lot of local rules, and local rules are tolerated by the AMA - all you have to do is make it clear in the contest announcement. Sort of like having a special dispensation for local rules in the W/C - that's retracted when someone complains at the last minute.

I have absolutely no problem with local rules. As long as I know what they are ahead of time, I'll either comply with them or decline to participate. And we do use FAI rules for our Team Trials, and *could* use them at any local contest we felt like. Just no one cares to.

>Now consider Europe. Some of those countries are as small as
>your states, they can cross country borders as quickly as
>you can cross state borders. How do they avoid the chaos
>where every country has their own rules? They come under the
>umbrella of the FAI which controls all types of non military
>or commercial sporting aviation such as hang gliding,
>ballooning, parachuting etc. I have no idea why,
>historically, the FAI came to control all sporting aviation
>and America didn't but someone, somewhere, had to do it.

That's fine - I have no problem with that in any sense. Plus, "FAI controls all sporting aviation" is a little bit of a misstatement, since there are other sporting aviation sanctioning bodies.

>Of course this "world uniformity" goes far beyond FAI/AMA.
>In America you have your Indy car racing but how many of
>them have ever competed in Formula 1 racing when the circuit
>(circus ) comes to America? Not a single car. Why?
>Because they don't meet FIA specifications.

And this is a problem? Just because F1 cars aren't allowed in the Indy 500 doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other, or that one or the other should be merged into the other.

What is being suggested here is, for no particularly good reason, that we change the NFL to use World Cup soccer rules, or change baseball to cricket. Or more accurately, go ask Bernie Ecclestone to decide how to run the Indy 500.

I just have yet to hear any good justification that the two can't coexist.

What's next? We all standardize on Esperanto as a world language? Or if the FAI had their way, French?

However there's
>one advantage to having local rules. They can be changed to
>suit local conditions as was done many years ago in CanAm
>racing. The CanAm rules were changed to make the Porsche 917
>ineligible because no American car could beat it

Race sanctioning bodies are hardly what I would use as a model of egalitarian behavior! Bernie Ecclestone, Mike Helton, Tony George, etc, are, effectively, dictators, and not necessarily benign.

BTW, plenty of US racing ideas have been banned. Jim Hall made a career out of making people rewrite rules. Actually, between Hall and Colin Chapman. the rules have changed radically. Movable aerodynamic devices (i.e. Chapparal) are banned in every single circuit I am aware of, and ground effects (Lotus 78, 79, 80) are very severly restricted.

I haave read what threads were attached to this. Claus has a valid point as far as rules on the World Championship level. Now count how many tried out for the Team to represent the good ole USA. Does that make 50% of the world stunt fliers? I am going to be flying in the advance class from now on as someone pointed out to me that I was only looking to collect trophies. Right now I feel that I have beaten myself more than being beaten by my competition. Leave the rules alone as far as Intermediate and advanced. The Experts might think about 7 minutes if they want to become World Class competitors. Oh, what a though another class for stunt. Right now we have four classes and then the AMA age classes. The other question is how many different types of stunt events do we need? I went to Tulsa and tried to fly Old Time and Classic on Saturday, then flew Intermediate on Sunday. I was wore out. Any way watch out all you advanced fliers on the local level I will be practicing more. Later, DOC

Well, I don't give an obese rodent's posterior as to the time limit. As I said earlier.
But, I, too, am an American. A Southern redneck American, and with all due respect, I also don't give an obese rodent's posterior as to what the rest of the world thinks when I am having fun at my (American) AMA local, or otherwise, contest. We do not need to do everything like the rest of the world does it.
Of course, we could call in our debts, with interest, from the rest of the world and probably wipe out our national debt. It seems that a very few people in the rest of the world realize just what America has done for them in the past.

I do have friends in other countries, and I cherish their friendship.

OK, that's as much as you get from me on my view of the world. It is not a personal thing with anyone here. Just an older man who has lived long enough,worked hard enough, and gave enough, to see what it is all about.

With all due respect,
Bill <><

My gosh, read the question, the answer as of now is no. But as is the
norm lately, after 27 posts, we are in a mine's bigger than yours again.

Walter...
Maybe there will be a huge push to use metric stopwatches....that would solve the problem.

See Ya

I don't remember anything being broke.

Paul Smith

The 7-minute time limit is an essential step in making Amarika more like France and Germany. When I am elected president, I will enact this needed legislation without delay.

I am JOHN KERRY and I approve this message.