PAMPA Question.?

I joined PAMPA in 1994 at the US Nats in Lubbock. Tom gave me the whole year up to that point and off I went without any knowledge about what PAMPA was really about. Here I was a memeber of a great organization that is designed to run the Nats and the TT and I thought it was about a rag.

My question is to those who have just called up Shareen and joined. What do you receive in the mail? Is it just the rag and you go from there? No By-laws and proposal forms and rules committe procedure stuff????

Before anyone gets huffed up and thinks I am knocking things. I just have an idea about how to stop some of the things we see going on here time and time again.

It seems as though people are joining an organization without actually knowing what the org is really about or what it's main course of action is.

It would seem that in the future all of the forms and the By-laws should go out with the new or retread members first issue. That way they will have all the info about the org they just joined. If this is already happening then tell me and I will be quiet.

Things to go into the first mailer of a new member.

SN
Bylaws
Rules change proposal form
Rules committee procedures

and all

PAMPA Guides

This would go along way to inform the general PAMPA public what the thing is really for. As it stands now many believe it is for the publication of SN and this is where this slant towards the Sport Flier is coming from. What SN publishes has nothing to do with what PAMPA really does, well almost nothing. The two are almost separate.

It was probably not that way in the begining. But now it is big and there are many many types of flyers who have joined. It would be good if they started off with all the info in their castor stained hands. Even if they dont read it at least PAMPA is making the effort to keep them informed of it's REAL dutties.

Another thing PAMPA could do to keep the membership informed of its real purpose would be to have the stuff published in SN, the letter for PAMPA I might add, once a year EVERY year.

In the first issue

Publish the Bylaws

Second issue

Publish Rules change proposal forms
and the Rules Committee Procedures

Third issue

PAMPA guide for contest directors
PAMPA guide for Nats event director

Fourth issue is reserved for the NATs CD to publish anything he had to do at the nats out of the ordinary and how he came to his decision to do so. Example cancel the first round due to wind, or a protest was filed and how he handled it, no names have to be given. What and why and the results and blah blah blah...

Fifth Issue

Publish PAMPA guide for Nats tabulators and the Nats judging guide.

Sixth issue

PAMPA guide for Stunt Clinics

This core elements of PAMPA should be on display in the rag every year. If they were there I think there would be alot less confusion about what PAMPA was really intended to do.

This stuff should be common knowledge in the PAMPA membership. One way to get it there would be to publish it every year. I know it wont get into everyone's head but it sure might help clear up some stuff.

Is there a proposal I have to make to get this(First mailer with all the info to the new member, and a once a year publication of each of the PAMPA items) started?

I swear I am not trying to start anything or point a finger. I am simply trying to figure out a way to better inform our own membership. Including myself.

Doug,

A good start would be checking the PAMPA web site:

http://www.control-line.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=1

The bylaws are prominently displayed and contact information for any questions is also there. Don’t forget the Reference manual with all members’ names and contact info.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-04 AT 00:50 AM (CDT)
 
Seems to me like the "Reference Manual" is the place to put the by-laws and other procedural information. In Tom Morris' (and the team that helps) behalf, I would strongly object to Doug referring to Stunt News as a "rag". Low blow to ones who do not deserve it, by a long shot. It's not too late to edit your post, Doug. Steve

Funny how people react to buzz words.. Maybe different parts of the country have various definitions for certain words. I am sure Doug didn't use "Rag" as anything other than an affectionate term for a magazine he loves. I think your comment was totally uncalled for..

>Funny how people react to buzz words.. Maybe different parts
>of the country have various definitions for certain words. I
>am sure Doug didn't use "Rag" as anything other than an
>affectionate term for a magazine he loves. I think your
>comment was totally uncalled for..

Ever been editor of your club's newsletter? It's a lot of work, if it's going to be any good. The editor and crew will not appreciate their product being called a "rag". Trust me on this one. Steve

Steve,

Bob is right and you are wrong.

Yeah, Your right Doug. When I joined I thought it was just a magazine I didn't even know there was a web site etc. I was just learning which end of the handle was up??

Doug, I think you've made some very good points. I'd tend to agree with Steve H., that the Reference Manual would actually be a great place for a lot of that information. At the moment it's little more than an email and address directory to members, but it could be so much more. Granted, it might tend to get too thick, but then maybe it could be split into a "Member Directory" and a "Reference Manual".

The impetus that finally got me to join was Larry Foster offering a deal on Fox 35 mods to new members. While I am not a competitive flier, and joined mainly to get SN, I did know in advance what the primary purpose of the organization was, having hung out here for a couple of years, and in addition all the fliers in this area are PAMPA members as well. Even with that, I did not realize until just recently just how important PAMPA is as a voice within the AMA. Of course, since I live in Canada, even that is not likely to directly affect me in the near future, but I do now finally "get it".

One thing, last spring I got a pile of prior issues of SN from a friend, and I've been reading back through them. The earliest issue is from 1995, and I've got issues from each year since then. I have to say, it's a very different magazine now than it was then. I do intend to contribute what I can, but as I'm just a "sport flier" at present, I don't expect to be able to contribute much, however, I do think that more experienced modelers should consider contributing as often as they can - it would make the magazine better.

Tim

As with any "great" proposal, there are always slight differences.

I would agree that sending out the constitution and by-laws to every new member might be a good idea. Certainly these can be found on the web site, but not everyone has access yet (??) and some simply will not go there. How many people go to a site, see a "user agreement", click on it without reading, and go on. Same with our constitution and by-laws. How many competitor members have read it? Sending each new member a copy of the constitution and by-laws I think is a good idea so that people might know what it is that they are joining. Contact your director and make that proposal.

I would disagree with sending out rules change proposal forms and the like to everyone, however. First of all I think any rule change proposals ought to be very carefully thought out. When you hand everyone a rules change proposal, it is an open invitation to chaos. Right now we have people going wild with rule change proposals concerning the builder of the model. (Nothing submitted yet, just talk.) But some of this talk is dead wrong. I am not talking a difference of opinion which we often have with one another I am talking just totally off base to reality. I took the last Stunt News and threw it across the room after reading some of this stuff that was totally off reality. (Franky I didn't see much of anything worth reading in that last issue. I still sent in my renewal, however, since I am a member of an organization.)

My real point, however, is why should non-competitors have any say in rules that affect competitors only? Why should non-competitors, for instance, have any say in whether your airplane is or is not going to be be eligible to compete in any event? Or whether you should fly an upside down outside triangle? We say "this is a democratic society". Yes, but let's use some common sense here. Should I make the rules on how large the stitches ought to be at the ladies' quilting circle? I think not.

>My real point, however, is why should non-competitors have
>any say in rules that affect competitors only?

Ooooooo...that may be a double edged sword.

What was the last contest you flew in Len? I have never known if you ever flew in a Nationals. You appear to have a lot of influence on competition issues, and a significant voice. No one appears to not listen simply because you are not an actual competitor.

It is a double edged sword.

>
>>My real point, however, is why should non-competitors have
>>any say in rules that affect competitors only?
>
>Ooooooo...that may be a double edged sword.
>
>What was the last contest you flew in Len? I have never
>known if you ever flew in a Nationals. You appear to have a
>lot of influence on competition issues, and a significant
>voice. No one appears to not listen simply because you are
>not an actual competitor.
>
>It is a double edged sword.

Oh, I totally agree. My point has to do with voting. When the question arose as to whether or not to "suspend" the rules and allow this year only for anyone to enter the Open competion without builder of the model applying to them, ballots were sent only to those who had actually competed in the last few years. That was fair and logical. A second vote was again taken at the pilots' meeting the year previous. A ballot was not sent to all PAMPA members to decide a competition issue.

Now I have been involved in competition for a number of years, served as coach, stooge (my favorite position) and judged Intermediate one year at the Nats. But, you are right. I have not entered competition for quite a while. I would feel it quite fair if only those who have competed would be asked to decide competition issues that would affect rules under which they are currently flying.

If you are proposing new competition, such as was done in bringing about classes such as beginner, Intermediate, and so forth, ask those who might be involved. But when changing rules to an existing event, I think those who are involved are the ones who should have a say-so.

Okay guys,

A call to the person who does the work would eliminate a lot of consternation!

When we get a new member the first thing he/she receives is a "new member packet". In that packet is a membership card for the current year, two PAMPA decals, a PAMPA brochure (for handing out to someone who might be interested in PAMPA and stunt), a "Welcome Aboard" letter that tells the new member what is in the packet and a bit about what to expect from Stunt News and announcing the "Reference Manual, a membership form for handing out to someone who might want to join up right away, and, last but not least, a copy of the BY-LAWS! Each new member receives and has received a copy of the By-Laws since I have been in the position of Secretary/Treasurer. This is a tradition that Tom Morris started before I ever took over.

As for the Reference Manual, we eliminated a number of pages when we were not as affluent due to the postage costs of mailing to each member. It could be enhanced once again but that needs to be discussed directly with Tom Morris--not here on the forum.

Shareen Fancher
PAMPA Secretary/Treasurer

Shareen,

Love you Lady!

Doug, Brad,

Consider yourselves taken out "behind the barn" and getting a most deserved "attitude adjustment" I really hope you guys chocolate coated your shoes. Sorry I'm not in Dallas today.

>Doug, Brad,
>
>Consider yourselves taken out "behind the barn" and getting
>a most deserved "attitude adjustment"

What is this supposed to mean? Did you not read my whole post? It sure doesnt look like you did. Go back and show me where I had a bad attitude that needs adjusting.

Good point Shareen. I had forgotten about getting that packet. Sure enough when I checked my archived stuff from PAMPA, there it was. I may even read it some day. Thanks for the reminder.

Bigiron

Shareen,

Thanks for the post. That answers the question I posted. I didnt get that new memeber packet. I fully understand that was probably due to the fact that I was joining at the Lubbock nats. Steve joined that day also.

As I said in my original post tell me what happens and I will be quiet.

Len, I fly ONLY for fun. When it gets where it is not fun, I will quit. I enter competition because it is fun. HMMM Does that make me a noncompetitive competitor? Should my opinion and vote in a "competitive" issue count?? If not, why not?? Should my friend down the street who is a member, but never enters ANY contest but helps at all the local contests, not be permitted to vote on "competition" issues?? How about his vote on officers?? Not there either?? Horrors!!!! He might aid in voting someone into office whom the "top competitors" might not agree to. HORRORS!!!!

Bigiron

PS Also there may be some members who do not own computers or like me cannot find the stuff you mention on the structure of PAMPA.

B

Marvin, I agree that there are those without computers and we need to reach all. Shareen has reminded us that the newcomers' packet does include the by-laws. (It has been too long for even me to remember.)

You do enter contests, however. I remember talking to you at the Nats a few years back (don't know how many that was). I am not proposing a change at the moment, but would certainly hate to see a rules proposal change submitted (and especially approved) on the basis of the support of the "majority" of PAMPA members, knowing that most of these will never even attend a contest much less participate or help one who does.

It would be like me voting to ban all use of guns to make our society safer because I don't use them and am afraid someone might force me to do so. (NRA take notice. Here comes the SPAM). This is the way I see some of the people reacting to our model airplane competitions without knowing the facts.)

Len,

I'm somewhat confused. Are you really stating that the majority of members of an organization, be that a nation, club, society, etc...etc... should not have a voice in the decisions of said organizations?

As I read history of this nation and history of some other nations, I don't think that position has worked out real well. IMHO

>Len,
>
>I'm somewhat confused. Are you really stating that the
>majority of members of an organization, be that a nation,
>club, society, etc...etc... should not have a voice in the
>decisions of said organizations?

This was my take.

BTW John, I think, (at least in this particular instance) that I am not deserving of a trip behind the barn.

In my heart I do believe that there are some fliers who feel that the majority of PAMPA members should not have an equal voice in some matters.

Gee Whiz Zilla,

Do ya really think? Very astute, and you got it right away too. As I remarked in another thread, I think we are seeing a bad case of "fear itself."

Tight lines,

>Len,
>
>I'm somewhat confused. Are you really stating that the
>majority of members of an organization, be that a nation,
>club, society, etc...etc... should not have a voice in the
>decisions of said organizations?
>
>As I read history of this nation and history of some other
>nations, I don't think that position has worked out real
>well. IMHO
>
>Later, John

As in all of this, people take it out of context and twist. We start jumping up and down and say, "Hey, I joined this club. Now I want it to do things my way." Carry it one step further. What if you say, "I don't care for your stunt pattern. Let's abolish it. Let's create a whole new stunt pattern consisting of one loop. Majority vote. Majority win."

Absurd? No. That's what you are advocating. And if that is what the majority feel, and if the majority should then "flex their muscles and do something stupid such as that (which you say is all right) they would kill the organization.

I do not have an answer. But I am certainly sensing the problem.

Somehow I sense that an attempt is being made to only allow competitors to vote.

Who will make the rules that define what constitutes a competitor?

I wonder what PAMPA would do if some genuine problem ever appeared?

Scary to think about it.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"Character is what you are in the dark." -Dwight L. Moody

Len,

You know as well as I do that no proposal from a new guy off the street is going to pass. Simply because about 99% of the time it has already been thought of and tried. I know this from experience. I would get an idea and post it on RCO, prior to SSW, and Ted or Kieth or Brett or someone would always tell me when and where this had already been tried and not used for whatever reason. No need to worry. If there is a good proposal it will be taken into consideration for sure. No need to worry about proposals. They hardly ever happen and it is very rare that one is actually good enough get passed. At least History tells us that.

Besides no one actually makes that many proposals. They like to sit here and talk about it instead.

Dave Cook's stuff will NEVER pass. WAY WAY WAY to complicated.

No need to worry.

>Len,
>
>You know as well as I do that no proposal from a new guy off
>the street is going to pass. Simply because about 99% of
>the time it has already been thought of and tried. I know
>this from experience. I would get an idea and post it on
>RCO, prior to SSW, and Ted or Kieth or Brett or someone
>would always tell me when and where this had already been
>tried and not used for whatever reason. No need to worry.
>If there is a good proposal it will be taken into
>consideration for sure. No need to worry about proposals.
>They hardly ever happen and it is very rare that one is
>actually good enough get passed. At least History tells us
>that.
>
>Besides no one actually makes that many proposals. They
>like to sit here and talk about it instead.
>
>Dave Cook's stuff will NEVER pass. WAY WAY WAY to
>complicated.
>
>No need to worry.

I agree, both on the comment about Dave's concept and your above comments. But that was the only reason for my original comment which seems to have been taken way out of context. I just didn't see the good that would come from in sending a new member both the PAMPA by-laws (a very good idea and what is being done, as we now know) and then also sending him a sheet for rules proposal changes as if we are telling him, "OK, we have rules, but let's see how we can change them."

The problem with any rules proposal change is it could happen if enough people, not familiar with what we are doing and the reasoning behind the present rules, get into the voting. Hey, even the Cubs might make it into the world series some day! So I didn't feel the open invitation to invite change from the person who just joined was, perhaps, a good idea.

But yes, many times what somebody proposes as "new" has been proposed (and found wanting) many times in the past.

Well!!! I am about to vote for a American President in November. However, I have never been involved in running the US government, so technically, I guess I am not qualified to vote for the President???

Ge-e-e-e-e-se, Roy!

Read the Constitution. You HAVE been involved in running the U.S. government. Even if you had never voted, the decision not to vote is a decision on policy. The decision of the majority of U.S. citizens not to vote last time was not only an embarassment, but determined the outcome and a sharply dilineated policy. Even in a republic, choice of executives, representatives, and local court figures, and ballot issues ultimately determine policy. But you really did know that!

'loved your "Pegasus".

SK

LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-04 AT 09:20 PM (CDT)
 
>Ge-e-e-e-e-se, Roy!
>
>Read the Constitution. You HAVE been involved in running the
>U.S. government. Even if you had never voted, the decision
>not to vote is a decision on policy. The decision of the
>majority of U.S. citizens not to vote last time was not only
>an embarassment, but determined the outcome and a sharply
>dilineated policy. Even in a republic, choice of executives,
>representatives, and local court figures, and ballot issues
>ultimately determine policy. But you really did know that!
>
>'loved your "Pegasus".
>
>SK
Excellent dodge of the point of Roy's statement, Serge!

Ha!

I'll ignore your civics lesson. Thanks for the compliment. I respond much better to model talk than I do to politics of any kind.

I don't really know why I am replying to this. But, I will probably never fly in the advanced or expert level of precision aerobatics. I fly for the fun especially when things work. I have been helper, assistant event directer and event directer for racing and navy carrier. That is where my first love of modeling is. With my son we did try to compete on the national level. Have also in the past tried to compete in F2C racing. If I was not so hard on pilots maybe I might have made the team. As far as voting on competition rules, if it pertains to Advanced Class I would like a vote cause that is where I will be next year. OK Richard and Robert. Later, DOC

My real point, however, is why should non-competitors have any say in rules that affect competitors only? Why should non-competitors, for instance, have any say in whether your airplane is or is not going to be be eligible to compete in any event? Or whether you should fly an upside down outside triangle? We say "this is a democratic society". Yes, but let's use some common sense here. Should I make the rules on how large the stitches ought to be at the ladies' quilting circle? I think not.

Leonard Neumann

So it’s up to the top twenty flyers to make the rules on PAMPA Issues?

Now I'll read the rest of this.

OH when I joined PAMPA I was told where to find ALL of the rules and BY-LAWS....Nothing was hidden.

Scott

Just where do you think tomorrows competitors will come from??? I would guess the majority will come from the so called sport flyer that are all ready in PAMPA. If they are not discouraged by all this dribble that is currently going on!! Of course, I won't be one, I am age "challenged".

>Just where do you think tomorrows competitors will come
>from??? I would guess the majority will come from the so
>called sport flyer that are all ready in PAMPA. If they are
>not discouraged by all this dribble that is currently going
>on!! Of course, I won't be one, I am age "challenged".

I think the problem here is once again misinterpreting my intent. I was originally replying to Doug's proposal to include both the Pampa By-laws and forms for rules proposal change in a newcomer packet. This is an open invitation to chaos. I think any rules proposal should be very carefully thought out with the logical rational behind it. Those who propose such changes also need to understand what the rules are and how they apply.

In your case, if you are a sports flyer and want to enter competition, you are not only encouraged to do so, but will be welcomed and helped in most any way even by your strongest competitors. One of the things that I have constantly been amazed by in this hobby of ours is that the competitors in the event will help anyone who is having troubles so that he can get his equipment working properly and beat them. It has happened numerous times over the years.

If, then, you joined the competition ranks, and after due consideration felt there was something you could offer that would improve the process--including a rules change--then submit it. But why would you even want to submit one before you ever competed in the event? (Unless you are trying to say, "Your line length limit is 70 feet. I have an airplane that flies on 75 foot lines. So until you change your rules to allow my longer lines, I won't compete." Doing that probably means you won't compete.) And, carrying this one step further (and here is where I got my head bit off) why would you want to force your vote upon those who fly in competition if you have no interest in competition? And especially so...and this is where my real concern lies...if you don't even know what is truly going on? We could end up having a rules change proposal having to do with competition that is decided by people who have never participated and don't even know what it is all about. (Maybe this is why the exit to the clover is overhead into the wind.)

I would think that those who know me would give me more credit than you do Leonard, realizing that you do not personally know me. I have no rule changing suggestions, I merely feel that I have a right to vote because while I might not fly in a contest this month or year, I might next year. I would want some influence as to how it effects me. No more--no less. I pretty much go along with the majority, but not with this elitest attitude.

Sorry Scott I was replying to message #14 and not your post. See ya.

No problem Roy.