How about $2 grand?

It seems to me that the cabal of Northeast Toy Aeroplane Guys might be well served in buying a defibrillator and making certain that it arrived at each of the 10 or so contests that we fly annually?

The folks at Phillips say that one of these critters is $2,000....or about $200 per contest.....the cost of trophies.....

It would be work and require a bit of responsibility of the CD's to transport this , but it would seem easier than shipping a dead guys stuff back home?

They are proven life savers .... ...

What do you guys think?

See Ya

If I could only be so lucky to go during a contest, then YOU wanna screw it up for me?

I think if YOU want to go spend YOUR money on it, go right ahead, I'd be a little more concerned with first aid kits for the cut fingers that always occur.

And remmeber, when that pain shoots up your left arm, smile, you've still gotta get throught he cloverleaf and two laps before you can go.

Oh, and as a CD I gotta say thanks for opening me up for further litigation. We use the shocker on a guy and he still pops, guess who is going to get sued.

I think its a great idea to have one on site. It might be possible to BORROW one tho..perhaps the local EMS could help. For special events.

Or a local corporation.

We have one in the budget for our plant--they definitely can save a life.

Not sure if there is still any special certification required to use one tho. Early models could kill you if you were'nt in fibrillation.

They've gotten smarter tho and that might be a thing of the first generations only.

>I think its a great idea to have one on site. It might be
>possible to BORROW one tho..perhaps the local EMS could
>help. For special events.
>
>Or a local corporation.
>
>We have one in the budget for our plant--they definitely can
>save a life.
>
>Not sure if there is still any special certification
>required to use one tho. Early models could kill you if you
>were'nt in fibrillation.
>
>They've gotten smarter tho and that might be a thing of the
>first generations only.

Guys,

The potential for doing *harm* (and being held liable for it) scares me bigtime. The only folks who are qualified to decide if/when/how to use such equipment are trained medical professionals, IMHO. Now maybe you can pay an off duty EMT to hang around during a contest, with your equipment available for him to use in accordance with his best professional judgment. He would also be qualified to administer CPR and immediate first aid to severe trauma injuries too. Frankly, if you have cell phones and EMT response time is good at your venue, dialing 911 is still probably the way to go. This should only be an issue only for very remote contest sites, where the response time might be too long. It would certainly be prudent to look into EMT response times at the contest venue prior to holding the event.

FWIW,

Andy

I should say that there are a couple of reasons that I began this line....
First...we had a guy die at a contest....only heroic actions by a couple kept him going until the EMS got there and fired up their stuff.
Second: the FDA, or whoever, has just approved these newer units for use without training.....the schools around here all have them budgeted, and there have been several soccer leagues that have purchased them.....the Northeast, being the earliest of the civalized States, all have "hold harmless" laws applying to good sumaratans.....
This is do-able stuff, and real, real applicable to our group.

See Ya

Man, what a society. Seems only in western civilization will you get sued for trying to help.

Sad, but all too true.

Yes, but with these machines around, if one is organizing a large event, the time will come where it will be considered negligent NOT to have one available.

Curt,

Exactly. Guy passes an accident site. If he doesn't help, he's negligent, if he does, he's sued for doing the wrong (or preceived wrong) thing. Incompetence, whatever.

sheesh.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-04 AT 02:49 PM (CDT)
 
>Curt,
>
>Exactly. Guy passes an accident site. If he doesn't help,
>he's negligent, if he does, he's sued for doing the wrong
>(or preceived wrong) thing. Incompetence, whatever.
>
>sheesh.

Actually what Peabody is writing about untrained people helping at an accident is clarified in what is called the Good Samaritan Act.
In Pennsylvania an individual who stops at an accident and offers assistance wheather right or wrong is not held liable or culpabale as long as the individuals actions are consistant with what someone would do at an accident scene. I think that if you go amputating a limb to free a victim that might be construed as excessive but since no one has tried it yet who knows. Seems that a little common sense even in states where suing is a national pastime, should prevail.
Dennis
Edit, I really must check my spelling

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-04 AT 03:30 PM (CDT)
 
Dennis,

Well, you're right. It's not the fact that you may get sued or not get sued. It's the attitude I was speaking of.

I was in a car accident a couple of years ago. A woman rear ended me. She was distracted by some kids that were riding on the side of the road and plowed into the back of my pickup. I wasn't hurt and there was some minimal damage to my truck. The woman's Honda was totaled. She was OK (thank God she was wearing a seat belt). After all the usual nonsense, I went to her insurance company's accident center. The total cost of repairs to my truck was something like $400. Not a big deal.

The insurance company insisted that I take an additional $2000 dollars for my "pain and suffering". Sheesh. I was fine, the truck was fine after minimal repairs. I told them to just re-imburse me for my truck repairs and I would be happy. I had to argue with the guy for 20 minutes. They were so afraid I would sue. I told the guy that this sort of crap was why my insurance rates were so high. Honestly, I didn't think the guy was going to let me out of there without taking the check.

Great world.

edit: I need spellcheck.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-04 AT 04:03 PM (CDT)
 
I'm a critical care RN with Advanced Cardiac Life Support certification. There are some myths expressed in this thread that need clearing up. The device referred to is called an Automatic External Defibrillator. These are being installed in airports, arenas, and any number of public facilities as we speak. The FDA is in the process of approving them for over-the-counter sale to the families of people who are at risk for sudden cardiac death.

Anyone who can apply a sticky pad to the front and back of a fallen person and push a button can use one. The device automatically reads the heart rhythm and advises for or against shocking the patient. It will not not shock someone who does not need it! The policemen here in Rochester carry AEDs in their patrol cars and have saved several dozen heart attack victims by being first-on-scene. Because of these machines, Rochester has the highest or second highest heart attack survival rate in the country.

There is no reason to be afraid of having or using one of these devices. Combined with some basic CPR training, anyone can be a powerful agent of life-saving.

As noted above, (every) state has Good Samaritan laws that completely protect good faith efforts to provide care to a stricken person. Your actions would have to be outlandishly bad for any court to support any action against you.

With the advancing age of the CLPA fliers, the idea of an AED at the field is not a bad one, at all. Now everyone get that weight off, dump the smokes and take your chloresterol lowering meds. Then we won't need nearly as many AEDs, or as often.

Sorry about the rant, guys, but it is something I feel very strongly about. The needless loss of life!

Kelvin Heath RN

Thanks for the info.

The newer model AED's (Automatic External Defibrillator) are very easy to use. They read the victim's heartbeat (or lack of) and automatically decide if the person needs to be shocked and to what degree. The ones we have in our offices actually speak and talk the user through the entire defib process.

Since I am not a lawyer, I am not totally sure about the liabilities involved. I can say that our powers-that-be in our agency have told us that we cannot be held personally liable for trying to save someone's life with the AED or by taking any other reasonable life saving actions.

Personally, as a person with heart problems, I would appreciate seeing one at a contest site.

Rich...Without a doubt, this is your most SHOCKING post yet!

BTW, as the sales of these increase, the price will continue to drop rapidly. I suspect that within five years, they will be easily affordable by most clubs. Put one in the clubhouse.

uuuuuuhhhhhoooooooohhhhhhhaahhhhhhhhaaaaggggghhhh:

P'BODY'S RIGHT!

Whew, that didn't hurt much.

Paul Smith

Buy one HELL !!!

For $2,000...?????

Let's just put the plans on the web site and build our own !!!

We are, after all, MODELERS.

Ted Fancher agreed with Rich Peabody!

On a different thread Brett Buck agreed with Rich Peabody.

The world is coming to an end!

I also think this is a good idea, and I thank Kelvin and Bill for elaborating. These things would be especially useful for contests in places like Clover Park.

The thought of aging stunt flyers reminded me of my visit to free flight at the Nats a couple of years ago. It's a glimpse of our future. Most free flighters are really old now, but they appear to have plenty of time and money. They have elaborate trailers with lots of equipment and various powered contrivances to carry their frail bodies around the field: little motorcycles, golf carts, wheelchairs, and the like, some equipped with oxygen tanks.

I'm thinking of an airplane-lifting-and-lowering stooge, so I can service and start my plane without bending my knees. The stooge would lower the airplane to the ground, release it, and get out of the way. An advanced version would refuse to launch the model if the line clips are messed up.

>An advanced version would
>refuse to launch the model if the line clips are messed up.

Howard,

Excuse me for saying so, but last weekend I kinda thought the advanced version of your stooge--gimpy knee and all--was holding my Impact for launch. And somehow neglected to see that a line clip was fouled.

Hey, I was surprised as well; those home-made clips, neato line terminations, very rarely give problems. But you coulda looked when I indicated a certain amount of concern over neutral being off...

Say, Heavy Stunt had a cable break on his handle quite recently. The Impact was coached into bellying in at bottom of something like 182nd consecutive inside loop. He will be seeking advice from designer this weekend as to possible internal woes.

Friday morning I'm going to Salem. Will be leaving a parcel on your front stoop. Look for it on your way to work. Or if current motivation fails me, look for it upon returning home from work.

I'm more inclined to just invest my own hard earned money and buy a handy pocket tazer to use on NW Skyraider members who are slacking off on their assigned task, or who show up, sit, kibitz and leave.

Seriously, there was a fatality at Harts Lake Prairie once. I wasn't there, but don't think it was a contest. Dr. J. and Nurse D. were not able to save the guy. This would have been before cell phones. Can you imagine trying to give directions to a fallen person at HLP to an ambulance driver? GPS, don't fail me now.....

I like your idea for the servicing/launching stooge, Howard. I have some ideas on that. Maybe could also do laundry, dishes, cook, and perform other sporting functions. Steve

Speaking of FF contests, a few years ago Howard was returning a CD-for-hire favor by working a FF contest at Hart's Lake Prairie. One (or more) of their guys had performed well at most recent Bladder Grabber, Rush was returning the favor. For reasons forgotten, I volunteered to help.

There was a small group of people a short distance from our sheltering canopy flying small Rubber models. A fellow unknown to us walked up and asked if we knew a certain individual. We didn't.

"Well, he's older, wears glasses, usually wears a ball cap and jeans, flies those rubber-powered models."

Howard replied, "Could you be more specific?"

It was the funniest thing I heard all day.

Another time: We were at a Bladder Grabber, a fellow whom I cannot remember, did not know well anyway, came over to Howard with questions. Seemed he was to fly Greg Wornell in his next match.

We haven't seen Greg for a few years, but at the time he was part of the Dreaded Canadian Contingent back when all they flew was Combat, and Greg was attending MIT. On a full academic scholarship. I believe he is still there, only now as a professor.

The question was along the lines of: "Howard, I don't know this guy, what do you think I should do in my match against him?"

Howard thought for just a moment and then perkily said, "Well, you could try to out-smart him."

This answer seemed to suffice, the fellow shuffled off. And I laughed until I darn near cried.

The original subject of this thread was what...?

... on Friday morning at the Nats this year .... while I'm eating my Cheerieos in the hotel lobby ... when I'd like to have been out flying in the top twenty ... Horward walks by and says, "I see your're protesting too" .... I blew milk out my nose ....

... even if the powers don't soon require me to have and AED at every contest ... just by talking about it here has opened me up for liability ..... why didn't you have one? ... you know you should have didn't you? ... it was common knowledge and discussed in the community of modelers ....

First, kill all the lawyers ( Bill Shakespeare), second take two aspirin and go fly your pattern, third, PB probably heard some else say it, but they are installing them in all the Madison county buildings down here in Dixie and most here are also civilized, at least in the city limits!

Hmmm...

See page 151 of the current issue of Model Aviation for the story.

The only problem with the New Jersey cabol having such a unit, is that they would have to vote on weather you were worth saving! For the good of the hobby, and all that.

>>First, kill all the lawyers ( Bill Shakespeare)<<

Also suggested by Don Henly

A note along these lines, perhaps it would be an idea to let someone know (buddy, CD, ?) if you have a condition (temporary or permanent) that might cause you problems while at a contest.

> A note along these lines, perhaps it would be an idea to
>let someone know (buddy, CD, ?) if you have a condition
>(temporary or permanent) that might cause you problems while
>at a contest.
>
>George

It's a good thing to know if someone has a permanent pacemaker or implanted defibrillator, too. Having one of these devices changes the situation some if they do have an incident. Sometimes you can see the lump under the skin of the chest (usually up near the left collar bone) or you can easily feel one with your hand.

Have the members of your club taken CPR training? If not, call the local Red Cross and work out a class. The basics can be learned in a evening and may well save someone's life.

Remember, time is critical.If someone goes down, don't wait. Assume they are having a heart attack until you can find out different.

Again, sorry about the ranting. I find that you can tell modelers, but you can't tell them much. If we all take a few minutes to take these things seriously, we might keep a few of us around longer.

>It seems to me that the cabal of Northeast Toy Aeroplane
>Guys might be well served in buying a defibrillator and
>making certain that it arrived at each of the 10 or so
>contests that we fly annually?
>
>The folks at Phillips say that one of these critters is
>$2,000....or about $200 per contest.....the cost of
>trophies.....
>
>It would be work and require a bit of responsibility of the
>CD's to transport this , but it would seem easier than
>shipping a dead guys stuff back home?
>
>They are proven life savers .... ...
>
>What do you guys think?
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Rich and all,

Sure it sounds like a great idea. I just want to remind everyone of what happens under these circumstances. A few years ago a flyer was racing at our field and started hanging onto another flyer, he then went down. Someone called 911 immediately, I believe it was Peabody, that was good.

There were over 25 people at the field and luckily one and ONLY ONE person was certified in CPR Training. Everyone, including the man on the ground's friend was in shock and no one seemed to know what to do. CPR works best with two people. The CPR trained person was tiring quickly as we did not have your run of the mill heart attack, it was Sudden Death Syndrome or SDS. Another person finally offered help to his friend administering the CPR. I know it was not long for the emergency units to respond, although it seemed like forever. The victim was lost and revived multiple times by CPR and then again later by defibrillation, he is still with us today. If the person trained in CPR was not at our field, (he is very often NOT at our field) the story would be different. For those of you who know nothing about mouth to mouth, it's not a pleasant experience and I will not go into detail here.

Training in first aid would be the number one idea to look into, but as experience has taught me, try to get people to take the course. Then, try to get people to remember to bring the unit to the various venues, oh yeah and if the CD forgets it is he/she liable?

Mary

It's easier to critisize people for doing it wrong, than it is to do it yourself.

Mary, a proper first aid kit now-a-days will have a special mask with a one-way valve for doing rescue breathing. So you needn't fear bugs or puke (happens once in a while doing CPR, but we can talk about that later). Not much point in having a defibrillator if you don't even have a first aid kit.

Very, very true about a First Aid kit. Again, like everything else it depends on those "few good people" to provide it, such is life. A first aid kit is about as good as those administering the treatment. You can have a box full of bandages, but if you can't get them open, you'll still be bleeding! In an emergency situation calmness rules! I have in the last year been privvy to several good (very bad) cuts. I am not the strongest at the sight of my own blood, but I can somhow help someone else. I was really hoping we weren't going to the vomit part... I don't think the viewers need that part.

Money better spent is on a state of the art first aid kit, and a few good men/women who know how to use it! Remain calm in all emergency situations.

Mary
It's easier to critisize someone doing a job wrong than to do it yourself.

These are excellent issues. I will propose that a few members of our club get training in CPR and First Aid.

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

For those of you who know nothing about mouth to mouth, it's not a pleasant experience and I will not go into detail here.

Having had to administer CPR at least 5 times in my career I have a medical mouthpiece. After the first experience I wasn't about to be caught again.
Dennis

This is Alan replying, Rich.

1 - Be more specific about the Northeast "Kabal" (Hmmmmm, 2K's just about the amount our treasury is up....)
2 - Where would the thing be kept?
3 - To only have it present on a contest day with the CD seems silly, don't people have heart attacks the rest of the year?
4 - Presuming that the "Kabal" incorporates more than one club, let's say it's at club "A" while a guy is having cardiac arrest at club "B" even though club "B" and or club "C" put out good Kabal funds for it. Doesn't seem right that it ain't there to save the guy's life at club "B", does it? I wouldn't like to drop dead in Lincoln Park knowing the machine that my little piece of the Kabal laid out good money for is at another Kabal venue.

Bad idea.
Alan

My thoughts were that, here in the NEast, there are 14 Stunt Contests...
2 NEST
1 CLAMS
1 CDMAC
I BCCF
I Philly Flyers
I Middlesex
I Edison
3 GSCB
1 Flushing

Designate a responsible individual to transport it if possible, otherwise have the CD ship it to the next CD. If each contest drew only 20 flyers @15.00, there would be $100.00 left after the contribution that could cover the actual administrative expenses. I would wager that the vast majority of competitors would forgo trophies for a season to achieve the purchase of such a piece.

This is do-able....

See Ya

Dear Rich and Al,

I am more concerned about training. Is it possible to find a way for a paramedic to be present (or a Doctor, if one is affiliated with a club). Perhaps we could rent equipment for a given contest and pay the paramedic if need be. I don't want a jolt if I'm choking on a big fat hamburger. We could also have a designated cell phone user always available to call 911. Has anyone attempted to rent paramedic service for a contest. Nice to have the big red wagon nearbye.

I think the issue is quite real, various ways to handle it. Having had bypass surgery myself (along with about four or five other club members) yeah, would like to live to fly another day.

Dennis:
these things apparently have clear and easy instructions....they even talk, I guess.....and don't shock unless there is no pulse....

See Ya

Rich, to be clear about how an AED works: you place the peel-and-stick foam patches on the victim. One goes on the back near the left shoulder blade, then the one on the chest. They are labeled which is which. Do the back one first. Turn the machine on. There may be an "Analyze" button, it may be completely automatic. It analyzes the EKG (the tracing of the electrical activity of the heart) and advises for or against shock. The new ones do talk you through the steps. It will not shock unless it sees a lethal rhythm.

AEDs can't check for a pulse. They are like oscilloscopes-they record electrical tracings. CPR training will teach you how to check for a pulse. We are all gonna get CPR trained, right??

Kelvin

>Dennis:
>these things apparently have clear and easy
>instructions....they even talk, I guess.....and don't shock
>unless there is no pulse....
>
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

.... But then it's true. Modelers will pledge to only have infarctions at CONTESTS!

Presuming said modeler grabs his sternum on a regular sunday flying session he's s$%t out of luck regardless of whether his piece of the Kabal bought the insurance.

C'mon Rich.

Mike Palco has lots of alligator clip ended wires in his flight box.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAT!
Alan

Rich,

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say they are "14 Stunt" events in the Northeast. You list 12. I guess if you run a carrier or scale meet you can't have the thing? Also your math problem is very confusing, much like a lot of what you say at times. Taking 20 entrants times 15 bucks equals 100 bucks for administrative expenses- Sounds like "A train leaves Chicago..."

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here guys, sorry. I just think that if you are going to politic for something, facts, clear and concise should be presented. If a club wants to be responsible for and maintain a unit like that, then that is fine. A "Party-line" unit is not the way to go. There is too much dependency along the chain for too many folks to be involved. If the thing got lost in the mail between contests, whaddya do?

My final question to you Rich and everyone else who has followed this thread: If you believe this is a good idea, are you REALLY capable of handling the unit, being responsible for it and above all prepared to use it should the need arise? You can't just bring it along and hope someone will step up to the plate- YOU need to be able to be the one to use it.

Mary

Why do it yourself, when someone else can do it wrong better?

You're exactly right that things have to kind of come together to get a good outcome in a field medical emergency. But there are two things I want to emphasize.

<It doesn't take a rocket scientist to use an AED. Just someone who can step up and follow a few simple directions. The point is just to use the thing.

<This is why I keep harping about the need for CPR training. It takes one evening, is not difficult to understand, and it saves lives. Once you've had CPR, I believe that it will be easier to use an AED.

The CLPA community has lost too many friends in recent years and I don't want to lose any more if we don't have to. Everybody please take CPR and have an emergency plan in place for your flying site. If your club can afford an AED and keep it serviced and available, more power to you. But learn CPR (again!) and have the field address and GPS coordinates posted so that you can help EMS personnel find you quickly, if it comes to that.

Thanks, Kelvin