What are we using for paint?

Paul Smith

Having just returned to the hobby, I got a major dose of sticker shock at the price of epoxy paint. My "most reasonable" local shop is asking $18 for a pint of (dusty, old) cub yellow epoxy. We used to over-pay $3 or $4 for that.

I can't find Hobby Poxy Formula 2 glue either. Always used that to fuel-proof front ends.

Is there some kind of home, car, or boat product that does the job.

OK, I admit I'm living in the past. So what't the fuel-proof paint of the 21st century??

Paul,

I’m also a retread from back when AeroGloss was the only thing. I read numerous times on this board about guys using Rustoleum.
I picked up a few rattle cans and gave it a try. Works great! It’s more fuel proof than AeroGloss was and it’s fairly inexpensive.

Several good choices are out there. Automotive paint, Brodak and Sig dope, you can still find Aerogloss, but I don't know many folks who use it. I really like Brodak dope, Rustoleum and Monokote. If you want epoxy, the replacement for HobbyPoxy and K&B is KlassKote at <www.klasskote.com> A search of the main forum will give you more than you will likely want to read about paint.

I moved this topic from the Classifieds to the main forum since it is a general interest question and not an offer to buy or sell.

Besides, all items in the Classifieds section eventually get deleted. I do not carry archives there. (No need to.)

I've had pretty good luck with the Rustoleum, Randolph dope, and another dope, who's name escapes my failing memory at this time, that is or until recently was made in Ohio. I've pretty much gotten away from Aerogloss because of cracking and flaking. The Top Flite Lustercoat seems to usually work pretty well, except for some crackin and chipping on fabric covering over open areas. I think the Hobbypoxy products pretty well fell off the market.
A few years ago, several of the dope manufacturers stated that they had to modify their formulas because of OSHA and EPA.

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I'm always amazed that Perfect Paint never gets mentioned. Is it an availablility problem. It is an enamel,covers well, sprays fantastic, relatively cheap, and very good gloss. You can even do a reasonably good brush job.
I know that Brodak sells it. I've used it on and off for years and always had great results with it.

I think I saw one of their products at my LHS just this morning. I was there to buy a pint of Brodak clear, and I saw something called "Perfect Thinner" on the shelf. Had no idea what it was. Next time I'm there, I'll look a bit closer...

Tim

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-04 AT 07:16 PM (CDT)
 
Here's my Super Clown done in silk & Brodak with Rusoleum blue paint.

Now THAT is one classy-looking ship!

Tim

For epoxy like Hobbypoxy of Superpoxy look up advertisers listing in AMA magazine for Klass Koat. Works fine.

It looks like Klasskote is a good alternative to Hobbypoxy (and K&B Superpoxy), but I'm not sure yet. There were very distinct differences in the two formulations: K&B had a quick set that favored spraying, while Hobbypoxy set slow and could be brushed without streaks. Don't know which one Klasskote is like yet - the literature is non-specific. Will somebody tell us?

I've been upset about the lack of HobbyPoxy Formula II as well. I did some study on the Pettit web site, and it looks like they still sell it - only it's just marketed for boats:

http://www.pettitpaint.com/products2.asp?Productid=60&Catid=3&SubCatid=10

It's called 7035/7040 PolyPoxy Glue. It sure looks like the same stuff. Maybe somebody will go to a marine store and tell us about it.

Dopety dope after all. Light. Forgiving. Easy to mess with when mistakes happen. Something about the classic look also at least for me. A smooth deeper look when done half way right. The plastic fantastic finish. Ehhhh. The old days. The good ole days... What about the good ole days! Shh shh my beta blocker's kicking in...

Hi Paul
I think it comes down to what kind of finish do want and how much work do you want to put into it. Every method that has been posted here is good! Dope ,PPG automotive or Rustoleum they are all good it just depends on what you want. For me I'm a sport flyer so I look for the least expensive (note I did'nt say cheapest) method I can find so for me I have to go with Rustoleum I live in Canada so we dont have Rustoleum but we have a great number of rust paints that work just as well and they are only from 5.95 to 6.95 a can! So if you are looking for a inexpensive way to paint your model Rustoleum is a good way to go.
Good Luck
Dwayne

Paul Smith

Thanks for advice:

Rustolium and Duplicolor sound like good ideas.

I checked Klass Kote, but's $19 for ounces, just like Black Baron. That's what I'm trying to beat.

I think I have found my answer: US Boat. They have 5-minute epoxys, and quarts of 2-part epoxy resin at good prices. Also Pettit One-part "epoxy" paints in quarts, same price as hobby shop, but 32 ounces, not 8.

My standad practice is iron-on plastic wings and painted fuslage.

Incidently, I recently painted my gagarge floor with a "so-called" one-part epoxy. Thus far, fuel spills have not attacked it. This might work on airplanes. Good price at Home Depot.

Paul,

I may get flamed for this, but I'm a firm believer in epoxy paints. No other finishing material is as hard or impervious to fuel. It does not shrink, and the best ones do not yellow. Even a doped finish with an open frame structure will benefit from a topcoat of clear epoxy. Dope will shrink, yellow, and it is not completely fuel proof when exposed to more than about 10% nitro. One of Al Rabe's original articles in AAM with his Bearcat convinced me about epoxy paints. My own experience bore this out, too.

However, I think you have to be careful about using some of these products for model aircraft. First, one of the biggest disadvantages is weight. It was my impression that model epoxy paint was specially formulated to be light weight. Conversely, marine finishes especially - are meant to go on thick (heavy). In fact, the epoxy formulation met a specific need - it would cure instead of dry from evaporation - a problem with thick applications. That's why I even question the Pettit PolyPoxy glue - it may have a lot of fillers that Hobbypoxy II didn't have (I hope not).

Secondly - and this may not be as much of a problem these days with the EPA, etc. - but expoxies were notoriously dangerous to handle and paint. It's not the same thing as brushing dope on a wing and feeling a little woozy. Epoxy paints would kill. One of the best paints in the past was DuPont Imron (actually a polyurethane). It was known for giving the "wet look" familiar to users of epoxy paints. Several homebuilt aircraft builders died from using it. Isocyanates are used in a lot of this material - "cyanate" as in "cyanide"!

There's even the possibility that the sanded dust is dangerous, too. Again, I think they're the best, but please approach with caution. It may be that producers such as KlassKote have invested heavily for a light, and safe product - where some mfrs. simply decided to quit when it came to the model industry.

>However, I think you have to be careful about using some of
>these products for model aircraft. First, one of the
>biggest disadvantages is weight. It was my impression that
>model epoxy paint was specially formulated to be light
>weight. Conversely, marine finishes especially - are meant
>to go on thick (heavy). In fact, the epoxy formulation met
>a specific need - it would cure instead of dry from
>evaporation - a problem with thick applications.

That's true enough as far as it goes. The trick is to not put on anything like the volume of paint, which is possible because of the high pigment level. It's my considered opinion that as long as you get the same coverage (i.e. color opacity) you get about the same weight as dope.

Of course, you can make it a lot better a lot easier. Put on a few wet coats and it'll look like it was molded out of plastic that color. But you won't be able to pick it up. Compare that to 6 coats of dope - just barely covers up the underlying uneveness. If you put on your epoxy to the same level of coverage, it takes 2-3 light dust coats, and doesn't weigh any more.

And there's no debate about the durability. After seeing the difficulties that Ted was having keeping fuel off of his Special Edition, and what happened when he *didn't*, I have no interest at all using dope as a top cover. PTG's system with dope as the color, and car clear for the top coat works well, but I don't know that he saves anything much other than the hassle of mixing paint. That's non-trivial. The one nice thing about dope is it's awfully easy to use. I was considering doing it that way, but now that I can get Klass-kote, I sort of lost interest.

>Secondly - and this may not be as much of a problem these
>days with the EPA, etc. - but expoxies were notoriously
>dangerous to handle and paint. It's not the same thing as
>brushing dope on a wing and feeling a little woozy. Epoxy
>paints would kill. One of the best paints in the past was
>DuPont Imron (actually a polyurethane). It was known for
>giving the "wet look" familiar to users of epoxy paints.

You are mixing idioms here. Imron and other catalyzed polyurethanes are a different deal entirely from epoxies. You need to still be careful (and if you are getting noticably "woozy" from dope, you are getting grossly overexposed) but unless you develop an allergy to it, the primary issue is having inert material in your lungs. That's bad, and should definitely be avoided, but it's not the same sort of chemical toxicity that the catalyzed urethanes, and solvent-based paints like dope, induce.

And really, you shouldn't breathe any paint. They all do at least one of several bad things that you shouldn't do. But bear in mind that a lot of the safety information is geared towards industrial use where the levels are set for *indefinite* use. Not 20 minutes once a year. I might also note which paints were the very first to be eliminated by the EPA- lacquer-based paints like acrylic laquers (i.e. same as Aero-Gloss, BTW). I think dope is still below their radar screen.

Upshot is, you can use what you want, but you need to take reasonable precautions with any kind of paint, and limit exposure when you can.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-10-04 AT 03:21 PM (CDT)
 

> That's true enough as far as it goes. The trick is to not
>put on anything like the volume of paint, which is possible
>because of the high pigment level. It's my considered
>opinion that as long as you get the same coverage (i.e.
>color opacity) you get about the same weight as dope.

I have done expirments with this and epoxy base paints are heaver.
How ever more durable.

> Of course, you can make it a lot better a lot easier.
>Put on a few wet coats and it'll look like it was molded out
>of plastic that color. But you won't be able to pick it up.
>Compare that to 6 coats of dope - just barely covers up the
>underlying uneveness. If you put on your epoxy to the same
>level of coverage, it takes 2-3 light dust coats, and
>doesn't weigh any more.
>
> And there's no debate about the durability. After seeing
>the difficulties that Ted was having keeping fuel off of his
>Special Edition, and what happened when he *didn't*, I have
>no interest at all using dope as a top cover. PTG's system
>with dope as the color, and car clear for the top coat works
>well, but I don't know that he saves anything much other
>than the hassle of mixing paint. That's non-trivial. The one
>nice thing about dope is it's awfully easy to use. I was
>considering doing it that way, but now that I can get
>Klass-kote, I sort of lost interest.
>
>
>>Secondly - and this may not be as much of a problem these
>>days with the EPA, etc. - but expoxies were notoriously
>>dangerous to handle and paint. It's not the same thing as
>>brushing dope on a wing and feeling a little woozy. Epoxy
>>paints would kill. One of the best paints in the past was
>>DuPont Imron (actually a polyurethane). It was known for
>>giving the "wet look" familiar to users of epoxy paints.
>
The reason wht they are so dangerous is they atach to the POLOPS in your lungs and have no way to be removed from you body. As they are plastic.

The reason the EPA is atticking Laquers is the Enviornment. It's hard to dispose of. EDIT: I would like to add with the cost of URATHANES and the use of HVLP spary guns not much is dispersed into the air or wasted.

Spelling is bad but were not in a Spelling-B

>
>> That's true enough as far as it goes. The trick is to not
>>put on anything like the volume of paint, which is possible
>>because of the high pigment level. It's my considered
>>opinion that as long as you get the same coverage (i.e.
>>color opacity) you get about the same weight as dope.
>
> I have done expirments with this and epoxy base paints are
>heaver.

I found it to be a wash, or even a slight advantage for epoxy. It's in the same ballpark, anyway.

Generally, we agree Brett. However:

> Of course, you can make it a lot better a lot easier.
>Put on a few wet coats and it'll look like it was molded out
>of plastic that color. But you won't be able to pick it up.
>Compare that to 6 coats of dope - just barely covers up the
>underlying uneveness. If you put on your epoxy to the same
>level of coverage, it takes 2-3 light dust coats, and
>doesn't weigh any more.

You're assuming that everyone sprays. You could brush the original Hobbypoxy, and K&B SuperPoxy had a brushing catalyst option. It's real difficult to "dust" with a brush. That's one of the questions I'd like answered about Klasskote - what's the setup like, and can you brush it with reasonable results?

>
>>Secondly - and this may not be as much of a problem these
>>days with the EPA, etc. - but expoxies were notoriously
>>dangerous to handle and paint. It's not the same thing as
>>brushing dope on a wing and feeling a little woozy. Epoxy
>>paints would kill. One of the best paints in the past was
>>DuPont Imron (actually a polyurethane). It was known for
>>giving the "wet look" familiar to users of epoxy paints.
>
> You are mixing idioms here.

I noted that Imron was a polyurethane. However, it was competing in the world of "wet look," which was epoxy's forte. Further, the epoxy paints I refer to are two-part mixtures, catalyzed with isocyanates - the same as many polyurethanes. The distinction is meaningless in practice. There are still isocyanates freely emitted during the curing process from both.

>the
>primary issue is having inert material in your lungs. That's
>bad, and should definitely be avoided, but it's not the same
>sort of chemical toxicity that the catalyzed urethanes, and
>solvent-based paints like dope, induce.

NO. Inert material is nothing compared to the exposure before curing - the carriers, thinners, and particularly the catalysts. All of these used different formulations than those for laquers and dope. As far as mixing idioms, I did when I mentioned the EPA instead of OSHA. Laquers were eliminated due to EPA Title V Clean Air Act issues - these are environmental emissions issues, not direct health exposures.

>But bear in mind that a lot of the safety information is
>geared towards industrial use where the levels are set for
>*indefinite* use. Not 20 minutes once a year.

Not really. Hygienic use is based in threshold exposure limits - TEL's, PEL's etc. These may be based on 8 hr exposure, 1 hr exposure, etc. For instance, a typical MSDS might mention OSHA PEL's based on an 8 hr work shift, or an ACGIH TLV.

What's interesting is your statement of 20 minutes. Some of these formulations that killed people were additive. That is, additional exposure increased from some previously absorbed amount.

To be specific, the current exposure limit set by OSHA for isocyanates differs for particular formulations, but are in the range of 0.005 ppm in an 8 hr period. That is an extremely low limit, and to construe that an 8 hr standard means you are OK with 20 minutes is risky. 0.02 ppm is an exposure limit that must never be exceeded.

>I might also
>note which paints were the very first to be eliminated by
>the EPA- lacquer-based paints like acrylic laquers (i.e.
>same as Aero-Gloss, BTW). I think dope is still below their
>radar screen.

Again, the removal of lacquers from commerce is a Title V, Clean Air Act Issue with VOC's (their photoreactive production of surface ozone), not a health-related one.

>
> Upshot is, you can use what you want,

at considerable risk ...

>but you need to
>take reasonable precautions with any kind of paint, and
>limit exposure when you can.

Agreed.

Hey Paul, why don't you go dig out the May 2004 issue of Flying Models. Brad Walker has a very good article in it on finishing airplanes. He mentions Bill Wilson who I talked to at Tulsa about the finishing technique. I had been using water base Minwax Polycrylic the last couple of years on my planes as an experiment not knowing I was on a decent track. I am finishing up a Brodak Olympic and a SweaPea. It seems expensive when you first get the stuff at the auto paint store. But the Minwax Polycrylic is so much quicker. Later, DOC

Hey Paul,

If you don't like the hobby shop prices on the dope I have a load of Pactra Aero Gloss in 3 oz. jars in a fair selection of colors. I will take $1.25 a jar plus shipping. Email me if you are interested and let me know what colors you need. I also have some Sig in 8, 16, and 32 oz. cans as well as some Formula U polyurethane in 3 oz. jars.

Tom Elston