ARF Cardinal constuction

I just started a arf Cardinal. A few questions, as I always enjoy everyone's suggestions. So as many pros and cons please. I'm going with a OS 40 LA. 4oz. tank. I feel the only possible change at this momment is to add a carbon rod from the flap horn to the evevator horn. For the motor mount that is the instructed recommended mount, it seems not at all stable, with no blind nut source or nut behind the hardwood mount, is the two alumunum bars strong enough to hold down the engine mounting casing. Or is someone using a different method? For the hinges. To keep it light I would like the light wieght CA hinges. It seems that only two on each elevator is not enough. Is it better to go with say Dubro plastic one's, or is it really that nessesary? This is my 1st. arf. There was quite the feed back and lots of comments and changes to the Nobler that seemed more nessesary. In my oppinion the Arf Cardinal is constructed on a scale 1 to 10, is a 8. The instruction booklet a 3 or 4. I would of gladly payed an extra $25.00 if there were a color detailed booklet and a video. But for the price I'm a happy camper.

Greg
I put together an ARF Cardinal and had to do a few things after a few flights. The motor mounts they give you are bougus. Mine stripped out when I was checking them after a few flights. I ended up having to getting rid of what they had going and did the remodel by cutting the cowling and installing blind nuts for my OS LA 40.What they have is a great idea if they used blind nuts instead of the brass inserts that they use. Also the aluminum plates they have had a tendancy to bend when you tightened up them up which I didn't like. Changing the hinges isn't necessary in my opinion, I used the stock ones and used just the 4 they give you for the stab. Anyway after getting it trimmed it works really well. I ended up having to add 1 1/4 oz's to the tail. Have fun! Happy flying.

After hearing of some problems with the mounting system, I made two modifications. I marked where the front engine lug holes would be on the bearers and I screwed in two eye bolts, then I clipped off the eyelets so just about 3/16" of the studs sick out. When the pads are tightened down, it clamps the engine down and the studs in the front lug holes keep the engine from shifting under the pads. My engine test stand works the same way. I also used a 1/8 threaded aluminum pad on the opposite side and ran full length screws through the inserts and into the pad. As long as the engines are similar in size, you can still swap them out easily as this system was designed to do.
I am using the supplied hinges, but I added an extra pair on the elevator. All in all, I think it's a great ARF. I hope to have mine flying this weekend.

Are the two screws that hold down the alumminum pads going directly into the hard wood mount. Or are you using brass inserts?

Greg,

No offense, but if you're concerned about pinned hinges--referred to as "real" hinges in my shop--being heavier than kit-sourced pieces, your priorities are slightly skewed.

I would not consider using anything other than pinned hinges, prefer the Klett numbers. And I do not recall ever once seeing a CL Stunt model with too many hinges. A glance at Impact plans even shows PW suggesting doubling up on hinges at outboard ends of flaps, placing two of them right alongside each other.

And while I probably could have read previous threads more closely, was there a stated preference for blind nuts over brass threaded inserts?! Y'all can do whatever ya want, but for myself I *never* use blind nuts in any model I care about.

>Greg,
>
>--being
>heavier than kit-sourced pieces, your priorities are
>slightly skewed.
>
>I would not consider using anything other than pinned
>hinges, prefer the Klett numbers. And I do not recall ever
>once seeing a CL Stunt model with too many hinges. A glance
>at Impact plans even shows PW suggesting doubling up on
>hinges at outboard ends of flaps, placing two of them right
>alongside each other.
>
>And while I probably could have read previous threads more
>closely, was there a stated preference for blind nuts over
>brass threaded inserts?! Y'all can do whatever ya want, but
>for myself I *never* use blind nuts in any model I care
>about.
>
>Dan

OK I'll bite. Why? snip...I *never* use blind nuts in any model I care about.
SNIP...No offense, but if you're concerned about pinned
hinges--referred to as "real" hinges in my shop.

I have no clue as what are "real hinges in my shop"

Do I need instructions to read your posts?????

Scott(only two beers today and Still can't understand)Riese

The two screws holding the aluminum are screwing into threaded brass inserts that are drilled and glued directly into the hardwood.I think glued, like I said in the earlier post mine pulled out on 2 of them when I was checking the screws after a couple flights. Had to go home and do the remodel.

I was wondering if anyone has an elevator that came in there arf that was smaller then the other. I did in mine. Same length,and thickness, but about 1/8th inch as wide. Will that make alot of difference. Or should continue to glue the horn and elevators together?

Does anyone know about the elevators?

Greg,

Make the elevators same size. I'd just trim the larger to match the smaller.

SNIP...No offense, but if you're concerned about pinned
hinges--referred to as "real" hinges in my shop.

I have no clue as what are "real hinges in my shop"

Do I need instructions to read your posts?????

Scott(only two beers today and Still can't understand)Riese

Scott,

Probably, although I have no idea why. Refer to second paragraph where I clearly state a preference for Klett hinges.

Dan

OK I'll bite. Why? snip...I *never* use blind nuts in any model I care about.

As if you wpuld of read my post "WHY NEVER use blind nuts"
I would Like to know why? BLIND NUTS no usey?

Scott(boy I think theres a lack of communication somewhere)Riese

AS for PINNED Hinges Thats a Given. Klett are good.

>OK I'll bite. Why? snip...I *never* use blind nuts in any
>model I care about.
>
>As if you wpuld of read my post "WHY NEVER use blind nuts"
>I would Like to know why? BLIND NUTS no usey?
>
>Scott(boy I think theres a lack of communication
>somewhere)Riese
>
>AS for PINNED Hinges Thats a Given. Klett are good.

If for once Dan and I are on the same page I believe that he likes something like the DuBro fast thread inserts, which happen to be my preferred method of mounting.
Having had blind nuts strip, or lose their legs and twist when installing I long ago abandoned them. Especially never use great Planes stuff it is dead soft aluminum and will strip out on you in a second.
Dennis

>Greg,
>
>Make the elevators same size. I'd just trim the larger to
>match the smaller.
>
>Dan

The inboard elevator is the smaller one. My question is will it perform as well if I leave it alone? I don't have any red Monokote, and don't you think taking off even more area from the elevator will cut down on the performace?

>>Greg,
>>
>>Make the elevators same size. I'd just trim the larger to
>>match the smaller.
>>
>>Dan
>
>The inboard elevator is the smaller one. My question is will
>it perform as well if I leave it alone? I don't have any red
>Monokote, and don't you think taking off even more area from
>the elevator will cut down on the performace?

Greg, How big are the elevators? I am going to assume that the larger one isn't overly large, but then I don't know why the other should be smaller, either. Are they both the same shape?

Is it possible to make the inboard elevator the larger one? I ask that because Brett's theory has been to add assymetry to the tail as we do to the wing to overcome hinging and that would at least work in the proper direction.

Just checked my kits. Both KITS one is larger but the same shape. Looks like a Monday or Friday Cutting....

Perhaps before we cut or glue we could get together and if colors match swap small for bigger and each come up with a set that's the same. Who's got blue?

Bottumzup,

What a great idea! How about one model assembled from all the colors offered, each component different from the other? This is an idea Rich McConnell would really like.

Did you give Alice the big kiss I asked to be delivered upon your return home?

Scott,

As to why I don't use blind nuts, Dennis has given a suitable answer.

And of course I read your post, all of it, unlike the shoddy practices you have admitted to in taking a monstrous leap of logic(?!) in thinking there was some sort of District 10 against District 11 deal in a satirical portion of a thread I began last week.

What we have here is not a failure to communicate. Instead, it is a gross example of projection.

For your information, I do not feel any obligation whatsoever to answer your each and every question, especially as you are a much more than competent builder, fanny-twisting antics of your Electra in Salem nothwithstanding.

I don't use blind nuts. If you do, and like them, well, there's your answer.

Here is a photo of the evelator. I glued it as instructed. So the shorter one is on the inboard side. If the tend to make them this way should it be because the feel it would fly better? I don't think so. Any way, here is also my Son Willy, my helper.

Mr. Willy

Well, I guess that I could see a little better if all that tape wasn't in the way...

Greg,

While a mis-match such as this is hardly something I would do intentionally, from what I can see there shouldn't be any serious problem.

I'll bet by the time you get the pictured assembly attached to fuselage, fin and rudder installed, few will be able to notice the difference between left and right elevator halves.

It is a bit of an odd deal, though isn't it?

>Greg,
>
>While a mis-match such as this is hardly something I would
>do intentionally, from what I can see there shouldn't be any
>serious problem.
>
>I'll bet by the time you get the pictured assembly attached
>to fuselage, fin and rudder installed, few will be able to
>notice the difference between left and right elevator
>halves.
>
>It is a bit of an odd deal, though isn't it?
>
>Dan

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

mine was slightly off, The plane flies excellently. Dennis

I suspect this is caused by an error when stacking the wood sheets to go through the laser cutter. Possibly the sheets are not all exact same width, etc. Alternately, it may be an effort to use a piece that is just slightly small, to conserve balsa. I'm expecting that Brodak would ship the balsa to China, possibly from the USA, but possibly from Australia or South America. It wood (sic) be interesting to find out, if anybody knows. This kind of stuff is why I ordered ARC, not ARF. Steve

I'm expecting that Brodak would ship the
>balsa to China, possibly from the USA, but possibly from
>Australia or South America. It wood (sic) be interesting to
>find out, if anybody knows. This kind of stuff is why I
>ordered ARC, not ARF. Steve

Steve,

That is just about the most bizarre thing I have ever heard you say.

Surely these Chinese job-shops are totally self-sufficient when it comes to capital equipment and raw materials. Besides, one version of your theory involves shipping balsa to the U.S., shipping it to China and then shipping it back in the form of ARFs and ARCs.

Man, that's a whole lotta shippin' goin' on dere...

>I'm expecting that Brodak would ship the
>>balsa to China, possibly from the USA, but possibly from
>>Australia or South America. It wood (sic) be interesting to
>>find out, if anybody knows. This kind of stuff is why I
>>ordered ARC, not ARF. Steve
>
>
>Steve,
>
>That is just about the most bizarre thing I have ever heard
>you say.
>
>Surely these Chinese job-shops are totally self-sufficient
>when it comes to capital equipment and raw materials.
>Besides, one version of your theory involves shipping balsa
>to the U.S., shipping it to China and then shipping it back
>in the form of ARFs and ARCs.
>
>Man, that's a whole lotta shippin' goin' on dere...
>
>Dan

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

Dan,
I have to take issue with you on this.
In the shoe manufacturing business it is not uncommon to do part of the manufacturing process here in the USA and then ship the product to South America to have several steps done and then ship the product back for packaging and marketing.
Globilization has had a significant impact on the way business is conducted and I wouldn't be suprised that this happens all the time

>Bottumzup,
>
>What a great idea! How about one model assembled from all
>the colors offered, each component different from the other?
>This is an idea Rich McConnell would really like.
>
>Did you give Alice the big kiss I asked to be delivered upon
>your return home?
>
>
>Scott,
>
>As to why I don't use blind nuts, Dennis has given a
>suitable answer.
>
>And of course I read your post, all of it, unlike the shoddy
>practices you have admitted to in taking a monstrous leap of
>logic(?!) in thinking there was some sort of District 10
>against District 11 deal in a satirical portion of a thread
>I began last week.
>
>What we have here is not a failure to communicate. Instead,
>it is a gross example of projection.
>
>For your information, I do not feel any obligation
>whatsoever to answer your each and every question,
>especially as you are a much more than competent builder,
>fanny-twisting antics of your Electra in Salem
>nothwithstanding.
>
>I don't use blind nuts. If you do, and like them, well,
>there's your answer.
>
>Dan

EXCUSE THE FU*K OUT ME ME!!!!!!
Ask a simple question and I get this as a response????? Have you ever thought it might help someone else down the road???? I use them and NEVER had a problem. THAT'S not the ISSUE/QUESTION. If you can't answer the question without flatulence then don’t torment me. Sorry DAN, you’re a friend of mine and this will be the last time I ask WHY don’t YOU use blind nuts.
As for Greg’s post. Greg I don’t think you have to worry about the difference. As with any NEW type of product it takes time to sort out the bugs. Build it and fly it.

Scott (sorry if I offended anyone) Riese

>>Scott,
>>
>>As to why I don't use blind nuts, Dennis has given a
>>suitable answer.
>>
>>Dan
>
>EXCUSE THE FU*K OUT ME ME!!!!!!
>Ask a simple question and I get this as a response????? Have
>you ever thought it might help someone else down the
>road???? I use them and NEVER had a problem. THAT'S not the
>ISSUE/QUESTION. If you can't answer the question without
>flatulence then don’t torment me. Sorry DAN, you’re a
>friend of mine and this will be the last time I ask WHY
>don’t YOU use blind nuts.
>As for Greg’s post. Greg I don’t think you have to worry
>about the difference. As with any NEW type of product it
>takes time to sort out the bugs. Build it and fly it.
>
>Scott (sorry if I offended anyone) Riese

Scott,

Per above, "As to why I don't use blind nuts, Dennis has given a suitable answer."

You and the millions of people wanting an answer to a burning issue were in fact given an answer, and a very good one at that.

Will you just lighten up for a bit...? It's actually painful to read some of your responses, especially in respect to "issues" which are in actuality non-issues.

Hummmm.... mine are the same size! But I have the "Steelers" model!

Dan,
I have to take issue with you on this.
In the shoe manufacturing business it is not uncommon to do part of the manufacturing process here in the USA and then ship the product to South America to have several steps done and then ship the product back for packaging and marketing.
Globilization has had a significant impact on the way business is conducted and I wouldn't be suprised that this happens all the time

Dennis,

When using a broad brush to depict globalization, you are most certainly correct.

I should have been more specific. While I do not know one way or the other, it appears as if Brodak's first shipment was merely one container's worth of models. Even if it was two or three containers, one could hardly justify shipping a partial container of balsa to China, have it processed and then returned in the form of models. There is at least one additional shipment of raw materials involved when doing it this way.

I can assure you there is not enough margin involved to be making extra shipments from here to China, no high-value pieces which demand being produced in the U.S.

From what I can see, literally all components of the ARFs, whether from Brodak or Top Flite, are produced in China. That certainly appears to be the case.

Which brings up an interesting question: From where does the plastic film originate? I have always assumed MonoKote to be a U.S. product, even though I've never known for certain. Could it be that once TF got heavily involved in RC ARFs *and* made the switch to MonoKote covering that they also shipped all the equipment for MonoKote production to China?

And while I'm still not clear on which plastic film is used on Brodak models, wouldn't it make sense to source it from China? Of course. So are the Chinese buying film from the U.S., or the many British producers, or are they making it themselves?

Ultracote.