Source for diesel fuel ??? - Found - thanks

LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-04 AT 10:40 AM (CDT)
 
Paul Smith

I have couple little stinky engines that I might want to run.

Does anybody know of a source of diesel model fuel?

Maybe I'll have to round up the chemicals and brew my own. Not easy considering the small amount I need.

Try:

Eric Clutton (aka Dr. Diesel)
913 Cedar Lane
Tullahoma, TN 373388-3167

(931) 455-2256

$20 + shipping ($30 total in SE Texas)

Davis Diesel Development fuel is good,. Also, look at Red Max diesel. Be sure to specify whether this is plain bearing or BB engine. The oil content varies. A gallon of this stuff will last a lifetime, and your grandkids will still be using the same can!

Contrary to belief, diesel fuel will not degrade over time if kept tightly closed in the can. I have heard rumors that the ether will evaporate in the can. I find no evidence of that. Once the ether vapor in the can has reached equilibrum with air, there is no further evaporation. (maybe those spray cans of nitrogen, used with wine bottles, might retard degradition. Don't know).

In the old days, I mixed my own diesel with equal parts kerosene, castor oil and ether. I couldn't get amal nitrate, so this mix worked OK as long as the weather was reasonable... otherwise, one had to heat the engine before starting (using Ronson lighter fluid on the cylinder head and lighting the thing with a match!) Flambe!!

Floyd,

In around 1978 I got a pint of O.K. Diesel fuel from the last stuff from a hobby shop that had closed 20 years earlier. Much to my surprize, I opened it and used it. I'd never believed it if that hadn't happened to me. I still had the can.

For the record ether becomes unstable and very explosive with age, but that's pretty much when its unmixed, that is in a seal contained by itself.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-04 AT 11:06 PM (CDT)
 
For ether get a can of Peak starter fluid and spray it into a jar. You can get A-1 kero at some gas stations and Blendzal green lable castor at a motorcycle shop. Don't know if it will work without DII. Mix 20% oil, 33% ether, 45% kero and 2% DII if you can find some.

The conditions for which ether will become a shock sensitive explosive are hard to duplicate in the home shop. It doesn't just happen over time.

Note: Ether develops explosive peroxides upon sitting for any length of time, even if just purchased from a supply house. Therefore, before handling ether, which has been stored, shake with ferrous sulphate or with lead peroxide. To keep peroxides from forming in fresh ether; add several sections of copper or iron wire to the dark container and store in a cool place.

Taken from a site discribing the synthesis of ether.

Try Carlson's. I like the Aerodyne, but he has Davis and Red Max too.

http://www.carlsonengineimports.com/products/dieselfuel.shtml

Paul Smith

Thanks a lot.

This seems like the way to go. At $16 a quart, I can bark these two modas and see if I want go any farther.

If I decide to sell 'em, I can tell customers that you CAN get fuel.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-04 AT 08:50 AM (CDT)
 
Eric Clutton (aka Dr. Diesel)
913 Cedar Lane
Tullahoma, TN 373388-3167
1-931-455-2256

Eric game me the formula to make my own fuel. I have tried it and it works on my engine.

Fuel for a new engine.
Ether 1 part
Kerosene 1 part
Caster oil 1 part

Fuel for an engine after 1 hour of use.
Ether 3 part
Kerosene 3 part
Caster oil 2 part

Ether. You can buy this at some pharmacies. If you can not find it at a pharmacy then get starting fluid at Auto Zone. Hold the spray can upside down and spary out all the compressed gas. Once the compressed gas is removed punch a hole in the can and drain out the ether into a container with a very tight cap.

Kerosene. This is top grage lamp oil or heating oil the uncented variety or aviation kerosene. I tried lamp oil from Wal Mart be sure to get 100% pure parifin was oil.

Gary,

Not trying to be smart but what is the difference between formula one and two...except perhaps you make three times as much in the second batch.

You should also add about 3% amyl nitrate or equivalent. Get Dr. Diesel's diary. I think you may have misunderstood part of the info.

>Gary,
>
> Not trying to be smart but what is the difference between
>formula one and two...except perhaps you make three times as
>much in the second batch.
>
> You should also add about 3% amyl nitrate or equivalent.
>Get Dr. Diesel's diary. I think you may have misunderstood
>part of the info.
>
> George

Typing error. I changed it the 3 should have been a 2. I copied this directly from the information I have from Eric Clutton. My info don't anything about amyl.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-04 AT 07:47 AM (CDT)
 
Typing error. I changed it the 3 should have been a 2. I copied this directly from the information I have from Eric Clutton. My info don't anything about amyl.
>
>Gary Weaver

Gary,
In Eric Clutton's "Dr. Diesel's Diary", he mentions (under Additives) that the additives provide smoother running at high speeds and allow it to run at a lower compression setting. Here are the additives he lists and the amount to use:

IPN (isopropyl nitrate) ~2%
Amyl Nitrate ~2%
Amyl Nitrite ~2%
DII (Diesel Ignition Improver) ~4%
Hexyl Nitrate, Ethyl Nitrate ~2% (similar to amyl nitrate)
MEK Peroxide (polyester catalyst) ~2%-4% - This promotes rust and is dangerous to your eyes before mixing)
Cetane Boosters - For auto diesel use ~4% (don't confuse with OCTANE boosters)

BTW, Eric Clutton does or did sell amyl nitrate.
Using more than the amounts shown does not make further improvements.

It's all in "Dr. Diesel's Diary" - I highly recommend it for info about care and feeding of diesels.

Hope this helps.

George

Edit: Lest I confuse someone, you use ONE of the additives, not all of them.

>Eric Clutton (aka Dr. Diesel)
>913 Cedar Lane
>Tullahoma, TN 373388-3167
>1-931-455-2256
>
>Eric game me the formula to make my own fuel. I have tried
>it and it works on my engine.
>
>Fuel for a new engine.
>Ether 1 part
>Kerosene 1 part
>Caster oil 1 part
>
>Fuel for an engine after 1 hour of use.
>Ether 3 part
>Kerosene 3 part
>Caster oil 2 part
>
>Ether. You can buy this at some pharmacies. If you can not
>find it at a pharmacy then get starting fluid at Auto Zone.
>Hold the spray can upside down and spary out all the
>compressed gas. Once the compressed gas is removed punch a
>hole in the can and drain out the ether into a container
>with a very tight cap.
>
>Kerosene. This is top grage lamp oil or heating oil the
>uncented variety or aviation kerosene. I tried lamp oil
>from Wal Mart be sure to get 100% pure parifin was oil.
>
>Gary Weaver

What happens if I use Klotz in lieu of caster oil? I've got plenty of Klotz. On glow engines, there is a lot of "personal opion" about Klotz, caster, and Ucon, but they all seem to work for teh people who love them.

Also, what if I just use the kerosene they sell for my Kero-Sun space heater?

Paul,

Blending diesel fuel is simple and you aren't paying extra to ship commercially canned stuff... Another post in this thread has good blend percentage numbers.

Good source of nice quality tech ether: John Deere tractor starting ether. 80% -- I believe by weight -- in 10 oz spray cans. As Eric Clutton suggests, you can recover most of the ether by inverting the spray can and spraying off the propellant.

Get it ALL out! .. or as nearly as you can.

Upright the can and punch the top rim once for a pouring hole, again opposite for a vent. (I use an awl and rubber hammer -- sparks are NOT a good idea.) Good glass jar that's large enough and can be sealed well? Pour in the ether and seal the jar. Keep in cool place, etc., etc.

Kerosene is less critical. Good campstove kerosene is low odor and low soot, otherwise effectively as powerful as any other type. If you like added fragrances, at extra cost btw, scented lantern kerosene is also good.

Oil? Unless you have ABC/ANC/AAC BB-shaft engines (which are more likely to tolerate synthetic oils) go with hobby shop SIG AA Bakers castor. It's non-flammable, so no HAZMAT if you have to have it shipped.

A quart size polyethylene juice or water bottle with graduation marks on the sides is plenty accurate for measuring 'recipe' ingredients. If you use the metric side, you can pour the %'s directly. Using "fl oz" side requires a bit of math. One liter will JUST fit in a quart can, tho with less air space above the liquids.

Sequence:
Oil - (Use the kero and ether to rinse that out)
Kerosene - (Keep the very volatile ether sealed as long as possible)
then - ta dah! - ether.

Cap and swirl --not shake-- the mixing bottle until they blend evenly. Let any bubbles subside. You can tell when pressure from disturbing the ether has subsided: the sides of the bottle return from their swollen size.

Quickly pour the blend into a metal can, like a quart thinner can, with small cap. I seal the cap threads with plumber's teflon tape. Tighten well.

For field use, I solder vent and long (filler) tubes thru the cap (mark which is which) to be closed with a "U" of neoprene tubing. If the vent is blocked or restricted when you undo one side of the "U" tube, the filler tube will squirt fuel for a surprisingly long time. Best is to pinch the neoprene tube as you work it off the VENT. It will hiss...but not spritz.

BTW, I don't recommend using muffler pressure with diesels. Might not apply in your case.. Reason: the exhaust dark stuff is some form of soot, which is carbon. Diamonds are carbon, so is graphite -- but do you want to pass any kind of carbon granules back into the fuel, thence thru the engine?

Diesel fliers have a unique manly aroma...

Interesting comment about the spray cans of ether. I have an Allis Chalmers tractor with a 2-cylinder diesel engine of 26 HP. Like some Mercedes-Benz cars, this tractor has glow plugs, used for about 20 seconds prior to starting. It always fires right up in any weather once the glo plugs have warmed up the cylinders. Ether spray cans seem to be something used as a last resort!

Dr. Spark

One of the Model Mags had a recommendation for model diesel fuel that recommended making sure that the starter fluid was pure ether and didn't have any additives. They mentioned the same thing about using a pure, uscented and undyed lamp oil. Claimed the pharmacy grade castor was good enough. Use equal parts -per volume of each. I just recently saw a post that recommended that if you can't find the Amyl Nitrate, Cetane booster from a REAL truck store will do the job, and a small can will last a long time, since you don't want to use very much.
By real truck, I mean vehicles with names like Freightliner, Peterbilt, Kenworth. 460+ hp, 1400+ lb-ft of torque, 8 to 15 speed transmissions. Haul 80,000 pounds of freight at any legal speed, and above. Just broken in at 100,000 miles, ususally around the first year.

Almost forgot about the mention of problems using ether. Too much ether in the intake of a diesel or especially a gas engine could damage an engine during start. If it takes too long to get reliable ignition, the ether could get into the crankcase and blow out the oil pan. Had to repair a couple early American passenger car diesels because of this back in the mid-late 70s. Not mine, I was a dealership mechanic back then.

"Pharmacy Grade" Castor Oil costs way more than the $8/qt. for SIG AA Castor, and the SIG is de-varnished in the bargain. I do agree about the Cetane Booster; not as good as Amyl Nitrate or Nitrite, but a whole lot less likely to arouse the constabulary . . .

LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-04 AT 07:14 PM (CDT)
 
Lou,

Something you mentioned but did not dwell on is using neoprene or tygon fuel tubing. Diesel fuel makes silicone swell and it will eventually slip off the fittings or leak.

If you must use muffler pressure, some use a small collector tank between the muffler and the fuel tank fitting to catch the junk. Just remember to empty it.

George,

Right, twice!

In a thread on here, I think I mentioned, maybe earlier this year, doing some diesel conversions. The commercial glow engines we converted were designed for glow fuel (well, duhhh...) and equipped with muffler tap pressure fittings as stock.

Benching these I noticed the fuel darkening toward the end of a tankful. I use neoprene where it's hot, since ether or kerosene swell silicone so extremely. Where things are cooler, I use clear aquarium airline, probably pvc.(Tip from Eric Clutton. Thanks, Eric!) I could see the dark oil going into the tank downstream of a convenience splice between muffler tap neoprene and pvc to the tank.

Dark stuff was soot, obviously. Used a translucent orange pill bottle as a soot trap, and f'r shr there's a bunch of granular black stuff collected. Trap was dead simple: One tube in, from muffler; one tube out, to tank -- both tubes aluminum, thru the cap, held with JB-Weld (slow) reinforced 4-40 split ring lockwashers (flattened to act as E-clips).

Apparently, the cooler interior shell of the pill bottle is enough to condense and collect the oil remnant in the exhaust stream, and the soot is mostly suspended in that oil. Wouldn't want to fly anything -- CL anyway -- with that big a trap aboard...

BTW, that (?)pvc aquarium airline tubing resists ether/kerosene, gasoline and methanol based fuels. It is cheap and available at pet stores or decent hardware stores. Downside: low heat tolerance; hardens quickly (but it's cheap enough that it's just another maintenance checkpoint.)

Thanks for the diesel fuel advice.

I have a 1980 Supertigre G20/15 diesel that I only flew a few times. I notice that an identical engine was selling on eBay for $257 with 10 minutes to go.

It made me curious about running mine.

After all these years, now you tell me not to shake the diesel fuel mix. Back when I was competing in F2C it was normal. We even tried adding water to the mix. Sure looked funny, because we had to keep shaking the refueling setup between pit stops. Now I use motor starting fluid, Hardware store kerosene in gallon cans and Sig AA Castor oil. I have different mixes depending on engine used. Later, DOC

On the subject of using muffler pressure. I bought a Tower 40 to dieselize. I broke it in glowplug as advised and then ran it a number of times on the bench with muffler pressure. The exhaust ran really black regardless of how I set the compression and I did see the black oil droplets in the muffler line. Finally I built the #7 Easy which I flew at the last two VSC's. The engine ran fine as a diesel. It was side mounted with the muffler well below the fuel tank. I used a piece of silicon tubing for muffler pressure. I never saw any colored oil in the tubing and, over time, as I flew the engine, the well adjusted exhaust color went from honey color to colorless. I probably put 200 diesel flights on the airplane and went through 4 crankshafts. I have put an additional 300 or so glow flights on the airplane without incident and am still using the same piece of silicon tubing for muffler pressure.

I am running a heavy hub and I think that may have contributed to my broken cranks. However I am still running it and haven't yet broken a crank running glow.

Jim,

Glad to hear that the exhaust residue eventually came clear enough to allow a clean line to the tank from the tap! The project I was on used mostly DDD ABC, and I could never get a setting to run clean. One of the engines checked was a TOWER 40 with RJL head. That's an ABC engine, and my caution seemed confirmed by carbon darkening the sides of the piston, well down from the pinch zone. Looked like a long-used Fox Stunt!

On as-built diesels my home blends do run clean, unless the setting is -- or goes -- "off".

Not surprised that a silicone tap line isn't affected -- by the time the exhaust stream reaches it, almost all the ether and kerosene have been burnt away at combustion.

As ever, enjoy your comments. Wish I could fly often enough these days to absolutely ice setups.

Doc,

Only reason not to shake the mix together in the method I described is that the polyethylene (I guess) juice bottles swell up enough with vigorous swirling... Hard shaking just churns up more pressure. I, for one, don't want the bottle to blow a seam or a cap while I'm mixing the fuel.

Once mixed and transferred to a metal can with a vent+filler tube cap, gentle shaking is fine. Excess shaking means longer for the pressure to subside, and it's ether that vents off when the tubes are opened for fueling -- without the right amount of ether it just won't run.