Neurological damage from hobby products?

Can anyone point me to information on whether dope, epoxy, and/or other hobby products can be linked to neurological disorders? I'm not interested in environmental stuff, rather, specific known detrimental affects on human physiology. For example, what level of exposure to butyrate dope may be known to cause neurological damage? This has become personally extremely important and I would really appreciate any links or known threads from the archives that might provide information.

Thanks,

LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 12:48 PM (CDT)
 
You might start by asking Brodak and Sig for the MSDS for their dope. You might have read that John Brodak suffered a loss of his sense of taste related to chemical exposure. Let's see, someone at OSHA...Let me ask a couple of people.

Here's one document and a couple of references a quick search turned up:

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/autobody/docs/cdc003.html

12. Axelson O. Hogstedt C <1988>. On the health effects of solvents. In: Zenz C, ed. Occupational medicine, principles and practical applications. 2nd ed. Chicago, IL: Year Book Medical Publishers, Inc., p 775.

13. Cone JE <1986>. Health hazards of solvents. Occupational Medicine: State of the Art Reviews 1(1):69-87.

I went to the OSHA site and searched for "exposure to paint" and got quite a list. EPA may be able to help, too, but OSHA deals most directly with worker exposure issues. You need to know what chemicals the materials contain to get good information. The MSDS can tell you that.

Thanks for the leads. It's beginning to look like I may have to find out all the chemicals that are in this stuff and see what's out there on each ingredient as well.

The law requires that each manufacturer has on file a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and must provide same to any individual that request it. These sheets will list any component that represents a health hazard, the amount and the allowable exposure limits. Getting the information shouldn't be difficult.

To those who are worried about lawsuits, it's very difficult to prove that the cause of a particular health problem was due exclusively to exposure to only one particular manufacturer's product. Defendant's attorneys argue that you have been exposed to any number of other hazardous materials. So which caused the problem. Other problems is that the pockets aren't deep enough for these defendants.

Of course we have had warning labels on cigarettes for 40 years but juries still award huge settlements to people dumb enough to continue smoking! Akin to "see what you made me do!"

LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 03:43 PM (CDT)
 
>Thanks for the leads. It's beginning to look like I may have
>to find out all the chemicals that are in this stuff and see
>what's out there on each ingredient as well.
>
>Dave

The physiology of this kind of exposure is very complex. The possible problems include liver, kidney, and neurological damage, just for starters. If you ask a physician what harm a certain product causes, the answer will likely be "That depends." Depends on what ingredients, at what exposure levels, for what duration. Complicated by the fact that each person's tolerance to exposure is different. There may not be any studies of particular brands or mixes. I guess I would conclude that the only completely safe exposure is none at all. Realisticaly, follow the OSHA standards where you can and minimize exposure through good ventilation, proper masks, good hygiene, and little or no skin contact.

After all, I've been doing this for 40+ years and I only have this tic once in a while......

>You might start by asking Brodak and Sig for the MSDS for
>their dope. You might have read that John Brodak suffered a
>loss of his sense of taste related to chemical exposure.
>Let's see, someone at OSHA...Let me ask a couple of people.
>

I worked in a Polyester Resin factory for 6 years. I have a loss of taste and smell from chemical exposure. I remember how good fresh baked home made bread smells now I can not smell bread at all. I remember how good a fresh bakes apple pie tastes but now a fresh baked apple pie taste no different than cardboard. I don't think exposure to the small quantities we are exposed to building airplanes will cause a problem.

If you really want the true information on this, go to the EPA and get the data. But, remember, "Careful what you ask for, you might get it!!!" In other words, you may put Randolph paint, SIG, John Brodak and others out of business with the tragic prospect of lawsuits and bankruptcy from litigation or the sad reality that they can't get affordable liability insurance.

>Can anyone point me to information on whether dope, epoxy,
>and/or other hobby products can be linked to neurological
>disorders? I'm not interested in environmental stuff,
>rather, specific known detrimental affects on human
>physiology. For example, what level of exposure to butyrate
>dope may be known to cause neurological damage? This has
>become personally extremely important and I would really
>appreciate any links or known threads from the archives that
>might provide information.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave

>If you really want the true information on this, go to the
>EPA and get the data. But, remember, "Careful what you ask
>for, you might get it!!!" In other words, you may put
>Randolph paint, SIG, John Brodak and others out of business
>with the tragic prospect of lawsuits and bankruptcy from
>litigation or the sad reality that they can't get affordable
>liability insurance.

How exactly will my finding "the true information on this" put anyone out of business? Are you imagining some scary hidden agendas here? I simply want to make informed decisions concerning how I participate in my hobby and my family's health. Rest assured I will try very hard not to put anyone out of business while doing so thank you.

I am not imagining anything nefarious on your part. The information that you want is already known and out there for all to read. Go to the EPA and OSHA and get it. Remember that Acrylic Lacquer dope is to be used in well ventilated environments and like anything that can be abused, it can cause harm if not respected.

>>If you really want the true information on this, go to the
>>EPA and get the data. But, remember, "Careful what you ask
>>for, you might get it!!!" In other words, you may put
>>Randolph paint, SIG, John Brodak and others out of business
>>with the tragic prospect of lawsuits and bankruptcy from
>>litigation or the sad reality that they can't get affordable
>>liability insurance.
>
>How exactly will my finding "the true information on this"
>put anyone out of business? Are you imagining some scary
>hidden agendas here? I simply want to make informed
>decisions concerning how I participate in my hobby and my
>family's health. Rest assured I will try very hard not to
>put anyone out of business while doing so thank you.
>
>Dave

Tom,

I think I know Dave's concerns. Some anyway. He's being straight.

Hang in the Dave. I'll look forward to seeing you and Alice at Albany next Memorial Day.

Tom,
Here you go again. Please be more understanding and stop your inflaming remarks!

>Tom,
>Here you go again. Please be more understanding and stop
>your inflaming remarks!

Unfortunately, he's justified - see my other posted response to similar comments made by Brett Buck.

Fernando,

you have a poor habit of responding to those who disagree with you with ad hominem attacks. Learn how to discuss factually and unemotionally or you will always be at a disadvantage with those who do.

>>If you really want the true information on this, go to the
>>EPA and get the data. But, remember, "Careful what you ask
>>for, you might get it!!!" In other words, you may put
>>Randolph paint, SIG, John Brodak and others out of business
>>with the tragic prospect of lawsuits and bankruptcy from
>>litigation or the sad reality that they can't get affordable
>>liability insurance.
>
>How exactly will my finding "the true information on this"
>put anyone out of business? Are you imagining some scary
>hidden agendas here? I simply want to make informed
>decisions concerning how I participate in my hobby and my
>family's health. Rest assured I will try very hard not to
>put anyone out of business while doing so thank you.
>
>Dave

As somebody who has to deal with various solvents and MSDS sheets every day at work, you may find reading the MSDS's adds to your confusion rather than clarifies things. And remember, per EPA test protocols, darn near everything causes cancer, even white laboratory rats. If you are trying to learn how to use dope or similiar items safely and not expose yourself or your family, you might start with Bradly Walkers's article in Model Aviation a few months ago. Or just get a good organic vapor mask for yourself from Home Despot and do your doping outside, so confined space issues or infiltration into your home is not an issue.

>>If you really want the true information on this, go to the
>>EPA and get the data. But, remember, "Careful what you ask
>>for, you might get it!!!" In other words, you may put
>>Randolph paint, SIG, John Brodak and others out of business
>>with the tragic prospect of lawsuits and bankruptcy from
>>litigation or the sad reality that they can't get affordable
>>liability insurance.
>
>How exactly will my finding "the true information on this"
>put anyone out of business? Are you imagining some scary
>hidden agendas here?

I suspect that it means that given even a minor push in that direction, the EPA could drop the hammer on several hobby suppliers and not even have to work up a sweat. It's happened several times - JBK fuels being one that springs to mind. I suspect most hobby applications sneak under the radar screen due to exceptionally low volume.

> I simply want to make informed
>decisions concerning how I participate in my hobby and my
>family's health.

I think the MSDS is where I would start. Get the ones for MEK and acetone, and you'll get the gist of it. Most of the little I know about the topic was bad. I researched it a bit when I started developing neurological symptoms. I don't think this was the cause, but it seemed abundantly clear with just a little research that you can be in some danger. I don't think it's acute unless you are intentionally abusing it or being foolish, but it can be cumulative and not something to completely ignore, either.

Unfortunately a lot of popular research tends towards the hysterical, but you can winnow the wheat from the chaff if you read carefully.

>>How exactly will my finding "the true information on this"
>>put anyone out of business? Are you imagining some scary
>>hidden agendas here?
>
> I suspect that it means that given even a minor push in
>that direction, the EPA could drop the hammer on several
>hobby suppliers and not even have to work up a sweat. It's
>happened several times - JBK fuels being one that springs to
>mind. I suspect most hobby applications sneak under the
>radar screen due to exceptionally low volume.

For once, I agree with you. I learned early in my career that contacting the EPA is absolutely the WRONG thing to do. Just a simple request for an MSDS elicited a response that accused our company of violating regulations: every company is required to educate their employees about where the MSDS's may be obtained. This was many years ago when most of us didn't even know what MSDS's were, and like many ignorant souls, I thought our illustrious Government would know best.

When faced with a question, a typical bureaucrat would rather find you in violation than admit that he or she doesn't know the answer. When you combine bureaucratic incompetence with an enforcement psychology, every question becomes a tip for a lead into an investigation.

>
> I think the MSDS is where I would start. Get the ones for
>MEK and acetone, and you'll get the gist of it. Most of the
>little I know about the topic was bad. I researched it a bit
>when I started developing neurological symptoms. I don't
>think this was the cause, but it seemed abundantly clear
>with just a little research that you can be in some danger.
>I don't think it's acute unless you are intentionally
>abusing it or being foolish, but it can be cumulative and
>not something to completely ignore, either.

We also agree about the cumulative effects.

> Unfortunately a lot of popular research tends towards the
>hysterical, but you can winnow the wheat from the chaff if
>you read carefully.
>
> Brett

Yep - but you can do a couple of things that will put you in a pretty safe mode - at least for painting. Wear an approved cartridge respirator, and don't let the stuff soak into your skin all the time.

I don't know the answer about the glues. Wearing a respirator the whole time you are constructing is not reasonable - neither are gloves. For me personally, I always thought Titebond was a great choice

Why do you blame the EPA?

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-04 AT 07:56 AM (CDT)
 
Fernando,

I don't assign blame to the EPA, I expect them to react as they always do, that is, everything is harmful and should be regulated and common sense does not apply. See Tom B's answer to Brett Buck, #24. I could not have said it better.

By the way, you still have not answered my question about President Roosevelt.

>Why do you blame the EPA?

So you mean that we should continue to pollute the planet?

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-04 AT 08:17 AM (CDT)
 
>So you mean that we should continue to pollute the planet?

It was already here to start with.(the chemicals)

Edit: More hydro-carbons are released in the air in 1 volcanic eruption than we can expel in 10 years. (See discovery channel)

>So you mean that we should continue to pollute the planet?

There's a huge difference between being responsible and proactive to limit pollution, versus dealing directly with the regulators. There is often no logic involved, and reducing pollution may be secondary to the regulator. He is reacting to the law, not the goal of reducing pollution.

Tom you are fast on the draw.

>>So you mean that we should continue to pollute the planet?
>
>There's a huge difference between being responsible and
>proactive to limit pollution, versus dealing directly with
>the regulators. There is often no logic involved, and
>reducing pollution may be secondary to the regulator. He is
>reacting to the law, not the goal of reducing pollution.

I should've also added - LAW is provided by the legislature. For instance, the Clean Air Act underwent a major modification under the first President Bush (and before you get political - the Act was made many times more stringent). However, those laws and that act largely contain goals, not regulations. The way our Government works, Congress passes the laws with goals and a minimum of specifics (keeps it out the Supreme Court that way) and the bureaucrats determine how best to implement that law.

Sometimes the regulations can be completely arbitrary. In most cases, the specific EPA goals (decided by the bureaucrats, not the letter of the law) are completely delegated to the states. The states, in turn, take years to determine the actual regulations. Hearings are held with input from industry, so the final regulations can be "justified" as a combined consensus. However, groups like the Sierra Club often file lawsuits - arguing that the consensus is not good enough.

Unfortunately, Congress does delegate the legal authority to the bureaucrats as well, which mean those regulations eventually have the full force of law - even though they are many times removed from accountable representation (elected legislators).

However, those laws and that act
>largely contain goals, not regulations. The way our
>Government works, Congress passes the laws with goals and a
>minimum of specifics (keeps it out the Supreme Court that
>way) and the bureaucrats determine how best to implement
>that law.
>
>Sometimes the regulations can be completely arbitrary. In
>most cases, the specific EPA goals (decided by the
>bureaucrats, not the letter of the law) are completely
>delegated to the states. The states, in turn, take years to
>determine the actual regulations. Hearings are held with
>input from industry, so the final regulations can be
>"justified" as a combined consensus. However, groups like
>the Sierra Club often file lawsuits - arguing that the
>consensus is not good enough.
>
>Unfortunately, Congress does delegate the legal authority to
>the bureaucrats as well, which mean those regulations
>eventually have the full force of law - even though they are
>many times removed from accountable representation (elected
>legislators).
>
>

Ron B.
F4Fguy

All TOO true! congress makes law,the agency makes rules which then BECOME the law. I too once held the unfortunate position of EPA/OSHA officer in a corporate lab. NEVER AGAIN!Thank you! There is little relationship between a need to reduce pollution,or to protect a worker,and the need for a bureauocrat to justify his job. In my experience,all the protections needed to accomplish the desired result were already in place before the government got involved.

Think about it. What has industry to gain by poisoning or otherwise harming valuable employees, who've cost a great deal to train and whose experience is invaluable? The same is true of consumers(in this case modelers).Why would any vendor deliberately endanger his customer base?
It's not like we're dealing here with giant corporations. It's in the interest of the SIGs and BRODAKs to make products as safe as possible. It's also incumbent on the users of inherently harmful products to use them in a safe and prudent manner. Some of the products we use in our hobby carry with them risks in use.This doesn't mean we should stop using them,only that we be aware of the risk and act accordingly.

ALL ketones have physiological and neurological effects if used improperly. This is not news. Isocyanates have physical and neurological effects. This is not news. ALL lacquers,nitrate, butyrate, acrylic,have ketones. ALL catylized paints and ALL cyanoacrylate glues have isocyanates. It's the responsibility of the user to protect himself (sorry,him/herself) by using the appropriate equipment.

If you have doubts,ask for the MSDS but ,as noted above by several others,DO NOT contact EPA or OSHA,if you want to maintain the availability of quality hobby products.

Before I answer your question, answer mine about FDR. I will then explain my statement on the EPA to you.

>So you mean that we should continue to pollute the planet?

Is that an f-8 in your photo? Could you post some photos of It? It looks nice.

>Is that an f-8 in your photo? Could you post some photos of
>It? It looks nice.

Go to the profile section of this forum, click on the g section, and then click on "grzly23." You will see my Crusader in detail.

Actually, there is always some confusion between OSHA and EPA when it comes to toxic substances. I try to keep it straight by thinking of OSHA in the workplace - determining the proper safeguards, while the EPA defines the toxicity of a substance. It gets more complicated though, because respirators and breathing health are actually regulated by NIOSH. When we had an incident (turned out it was isocyanates from painting), then NIOSH was called out to investigate.

As far as EPA vs. OSHA, here's a link that will confuse you further:

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=MOU&p_id=232

I think it is generally accepted that the body can break down cellulose as it contains cellulose anyway. Now, whether that applies to both nitrate and butyrate may be difficult to establish. Starting some 60 years or so ago, I regularly slept in a room full of cellulose nitrate fumes.
However, There are already well established incidences of epoxy causing harmful effects.
Then there is the additional matter of alergies. I am now allergic to thin ZAP. One sniff of it in the same room and my nose becomes blocked for days. More exposure and I lose my voice. Slo ZAP has no effect - but I'm careful to limit my exposure. Other cyano glues have leeser, or no, effect.
Maybe we need to start by defining 'Neurological damage'.

huh?

Dave,

While I don't know what's going on, I am a little concerned.

Should I be blocking out a future weekend in order to teach you and Alice all about covering with MonoKote?

My best,

Why don't you take a weekend off and come out here to KS and teach me how to cover with money coat. All I get is wrinkles. That is allright as they all run chord wise, so there is no disturbed air flow.

Bigiron

Dave, from my schooldays biology, humans cannot digest or breakdown cellulose, and the body doesn't contain it? It does constitute roughage which passes straight through the digestive system, which they say is good for you. Cows can digest cellulose, which explains why errant f/f models are such a delicacy for them. (Or used to be be, when they were covered with doped materials).

Just ask Steve Fauble!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 06:31 PM (CDT)
 
Not to belittle the risks of using our products, I do have a fairly humorous story (at least it was at the time!):
When I was about 13, my flying buddy, and his younger brother (2 years younger) used to build in the "cottage" next to his house. it had once been used for rental, but was just a storage building at the time.
There was a working oil fired space heater in one of the big rooms so we would use that room to build in when it was very cold at night.
We were all in the room, doors shut and each had a large can of dope open painting away on our planes in the comfort of the warm, closed in room. Wasn't too long before the young'un started giggling, then laughing.......... his first "drunk" was from dope fumes!
Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 09:52 PM (CDT)
 
Not to worry my wife says there has been irrepairable damage done to my brain from modeling. Anyone who would build a beautiful plane and dive it at the ground at 60 MPH and be happy doing it is sick. Anyone who would crash, totaling his plane one day and be building a new plane the next is sick. Anyone who would drive to a contest for 3 1/2 hours to fly in the rain and crash his plane and come home and tell everyone how much fun it was, is sick. Anyone who has more control line motors than 10 people could use in a life time is sick. Anyone who would build 3 or 4 planes at one time is sick. Anyone who has to have a motor of each size and never use them is sick. Anyone who would rather work in the cold garage all night as opposed to watching TV with the wife is sick. Anyone who scores a low score and says it's the judges fault is sick. Anyone who goes to the flying field and comes home covered in castor and doesn't even think there is anything wrong, is sick. And on and on. Hey I resemble that remark!!!! It's just such a comfort to associate with all you sickies, I love it......Grins

Dave....I have a good book here at the shop with all of your answers. You will be blowen away about DOPE and Thinners, and Balsa dust. I'll set it aside for you.

So when are the men in the white jackets coming after me. Over fifty years of doping planes in small rooms. My bedroom, with board on the bed until bedtime. When I started using epoxies I made sure I had a fan blowing the stuff away from me in a big open garage. The instant CA I had to get away from for awhile. Trouble breathing. Now use white glue almost extensively. No epoxy and CA just enough to hold parts. Have tried the new polyurethane glue once and it now sits on the shelf. Think this stuff might get to me in the next 50 years. I think exposure time is what has to be considered. Later, DOC

Strange, I don't even know your wife yet she has me pegged! LOL:P

Hi

Nothing documented.

The man who tought me to fly R/C was an antique restorer and dealer.
He rented a small shop that did not have adequate ventilation for the spray finishes he was using. I talked to him about this and he said, What choice do I have I have to earn a living. Lost contact with him years ago but last I heard he is in a wheel chair because of nerve damage from solvents.

Even though his was an occuopational exposure, be very careful of contact with solvents and fumes. I knew a fellow who worked for a short time in fiberglasing. He had lost fealing in his hands from washing up in acetone. He was a young teaching student so could not have had very prolonged exposure. Solvents can absord through your skin.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-04 AT 07:36 AM (CDT)
 
>Can anyone point me to information on whether dope, epoxy,
>and/or other hobby products can be linked to neurological
>disorders? I'm not interested in environmental stuff,
>rather, specific known detrimental affects on human
>physiology. For example, what level of exposure to butyrate
>dope may be known to cause neurological damage? This has
>become personally extremely important and I would really
>appreciate any links or known threads from the archives that
>might provide information.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dave

Breathing can cause all sorts of disorders doesn't mean I'm going to stop on purpose. So I guess I'll take my chances with the dope,epoxy and other things I have been using 30 + years.

BIO-Degradable means it doesn't work trust me..... at least IMO

I understand that John Brodak has had some problems himself. He would be a good contact within the hobby for answers to this questions as well as a direction to take for protection if you are sensitive.
Steve
The older I get, the better I used to fly!

Bumped this up to try to clear up some questions many of you have. Tom McClain and Brett Buck are correct in their warnings.

If you care at all about a company or a product, do not directly question the Government about that product (EPA, OSHA, etc.)

The story I related below, in my reply to Brett, was one of the scariest moments early in my career. I was simply trying to clarify a code issue regarding some of our jet fuel storage tanks. I called the local EPA to try to find out the current fuel tank recommendations for JP-4, etc. At the time, I thought as many of you do - who better to ask than the supposed originator of hazardous/polluting substance regulations?

The regulator immediately threw it back on me (because the ignorant fool didn't know himself) that I should know all because the information would be in the MSDS. Never mind that code issues would never be in there - but it was too late. A simple "Huh?", and he proceeded to accuse my company in violation of the law because I didn't know about the MSDS. I apologized for not knowing, and stressed to him that my call was an honest effort to learn.

Well that made it worse! "It's your company's obligation - by law - to ensure that you know where every MSDS is located. You and your company are in violation of the law." Once again, this was early in the industry, many of us did not know about MSDS's completely, and in any event - I was never going to actually handle the fuel, so there was never a need for the MSDS anyway.

Not knowing any of this at the time, I started to panic while visions danced in my head of my face plastered over every newspaper in the country - "Employee reports Lockheed in violation of EPA laws!" I started to protest - said things like I'm sure my company told me, I just forgot, or maybe I was out sick on that day. Then I got a little stubborn and started accusing him of attacking a citizen for trying to do the right thing.

Eventually, I calmed him down, and got assurances that he would not follow up. To protect myself, I confessed all to my Managers, and some of this information fed into the creation of our pollution control department (as with many companies), and policies were put in place that established our pollution people as the only ones that would have direct contact with Government regulators. (It took awhile for them to come up on the learning curve, too - and more incidents happened later that made mine trivial in comparison.)

The moral of the story: When the Government is involved, do not assume that the positive willingness to learn and comply will go unpunished.

So, the real question is why Dave wants this information and what will he do with it?

>So, the real question is why Dave wants this information and
>what will he do with it?

The "real" answer is that Dave does not want his hobby to cause harm to his loved ones. As we all know, knowledge is power, so therefore I intend to use this information to amass wealth and change the course of history. <- for Dan

What I have learned has helped me "buy into" a necessary change. I prefer dope finishes on my airplanes but will have to learn to embrace other technologies now if I'm to continue working in the comfort of my basement workshop and elliminate harmful effects upon family members. It is not easy for me to give up something I've been doing for nearly fifty years so the information I've gathered also provides me with incentive and motivation to let go of comfortable and familiar old dreams and techniques. I plan to complete current dope and tissue projects outside when the weather permits and begin exploring other finishing methods asap.

Thanks to everyone for helpful input on this.

Dave,

Look at the possibility of putting a paint booth with air evacuation fan in your work area. That would protect you and the rest of your family.

Dave

Just about every chemical used in modelling is dangerous to a lesser or greater degree, all epoxies carry a health risk, dopes of both types, balsa dust, glass fibre dust, fuels, cyanos etc.

I do see a lot of old modellers around who dont seem to be doing too bad, I have meet two people in my life who have irreversable damage caused by 2 part enamal paints, I would say that one of them was a chancer and probably took unneccessary risks, I cant begin to count the number of people I know killed through RTA's.

You have a far higher chance of you and your family being injured or worse by driving your car than by using modelling materials sensibly, you may bring more happiness and joy to you and your loved ones by persueing your hobby sensibly like you have done for the last half century.

Keep it all in perspective and drive safely.

>Bumped this up to try to clear up some questions many of you
>have. Tom McClain and Brett Buck are correct in their
>warnings.
>
>If you care at all about a company or a product, do not
>directly question the Government about that product (EPA,
>OSHA, etc.)
>

"Going to the Government" was never part of my research strategy. I wasn't born yesterday and have not been living alone on an island. I do appreciate what you are saying. I'm just trying to figure out how best to continue my hobby AND keep my home safe for my family.

Yep - didn't mean it as a specific response to you, just hijacked your original post to answer some of the discussion that followed.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-04 AT 01:43 PM (CDT)
 
Dave,
That is good to know, but the way you started this whole thing, and given you live in a state that is known for "environmentalism", you could have been (be) mistaken for a mole trying to get some info to hurt our tiny little hobby.

In the case of you wanting to protect your family, good for you. But fifty years later? It could sound like you are starting up research for a lawsuit against a paint maufacturer, or other hobby related company. This would be why a lot of people (and I) are questioning your motives.

After using these dope products for 5 decades you should already be informed (you know, hearsay and stories) of the anecdotal evidence that it is bad for you, and reading the label will give you a rudimentary warning from the EPA mandates to inform the citizenry.

I'm still questioning it (your motivation), because you have made a real deal out of wanting to know the technical specifics, rather than trying to find out how to keep from hurting yourself while using the products. (Tom McClain has given you a real bit of good advice on using dope by suggesting a spray booth, which is what everyone should have been doing for 25 years now. The're easy to build and ventilate, I use 1x1's, a clear drop cloth material and a large fan).

Suspicious in SoCal...

edited for poor spellin'(sic) Chris...

Hey, folks!

Dave is as straight-up a guy as you would ever want to meet; I am honored to call him a friend, especially as he has yet to bonk me after kissing his wife.

True, he is not the wordsmith he might like to be, thus his opening was a little strained, easily read incorrectly.

Dave,

Always available to convert you and Alice over to the Dark Side; lots of MonoKote may well be in your future...!

My best,

Don't do it Dave. Build the paint booth and use the evacuation fan. Remember Dirt is only Robert "The Prince of Darkness" Novak in disguise.

>Dave,
>That is good to know, but the way you started this whole
>thing, and given you live in a state that is known for
>"environmentalism", you could have been (be) mistaken for a
>mole trying to get some info to hurt our tiny little hobby.
>

My apologies for not thinking of how others might interpret my post.

>After using these dope products for 5 decades you should
>already be informed (you know, hearsay and stories) of the
>anecdotal evidence that it is bad for you, and reading the
>label will give you a rudimentary warning from the EPA
>mandates to inform the citizenry.
>

I have been well aware of the proper use of the materials I have been using for a long time and have a very good exhaust fan and never spray without respirator. Yes, I read labels.

>I'm still questioning it (your motivation), because you have
>made a real deal out of wanting to know the technical
>specifics, rather than trying to find out how to keep from
>hurting yourself while using the products. (Tom McClain has
>given you a real bit of good advice on using dope by
>suggesting a spray booth, which is what everyone should have
>been doing for 25 years now. The're easy to build and
>ventilate, I use 1x1's, a clear drop cloth material and a
>large fan).
>
>Suspicious in SoCal...
>
>edited for poor spellin'(sic) Chris...

I have used all the suggested precautions and while I do not seem to be adversely affected myself others definitely are regardless of the precautions. I have acquired sufficient information to no longer be in denial in regards to this. I have no wish to promote any environmental cause or in any way prevent anyone from using anything they like to finish their ships with. But for me in the short term, all the stuff is "outa here." Down the road I may be able to get an "away from the house" structure set up adequately to resume dope finishing. I regret creating any suspicion.

I have developed a high sensitivity for acetone and MEK fumes. After a visit to the emergency room I bought a mask. Now this was spray painting outside and holding the plane down wind like I had for the last several years. It still got to me bad enough the I went to the emergency room. I can do a minimal amount of trim brush work on a small stick and tissue plane but anything beyond that means a longsleeve shirt gloves and the mask out side and down wind. I can remember painting silk covered combat models down in the basement back in Illinois 2 and 3 at a time. I wish I had known then what I know now, it is also a miracle that I didn't blow up the house with the fumes as the furnace was in the next room! Read the signature line below! <--- for Dan.

Read the signature line below! <--- for Dan.
I used to like painting with dope but now I can't remember why. Steve Fauble

Steve,

Give me a break! Please...

You were the third person I thought of when Dave made initial posting, Dave and Alice being the first two.

And quit teasing me with those stupid icons!

Say, I was going through my (*complete*) sets of volumes 1, 2, and 3 of Model Builder magazine last weekend. Stumbled across a picture of you. Promptly reduced value of that volume by ripping the whole page from magazine. Cannot locate an icon which is suitable, sorry.

Your mention of blowing up the house reminds me of a totally stupid thing I did many years ago. Not modelling but sure applicable.

I was spraying Randolph's finest dope on a full sized Aeronca Chief in my brother in law's gas heated hanger on a cold night with the heaters going (dumb move #1). It was a large hanger (about 60 x60') so I didn't worry much about fumes (#2). After applying about the third coat that evening I noticed the visibility was getting mighty low in there. Looking up I saw that the lovely blue gas flame in the heaters had all turned to a very sickly yellow. After finishing that coat (dumb move #3) I walked over to my brother in law and asked what was wrong with the heaters (#4). He firmly suggested we discuss it out side and RIGHT NOW! On the way out he pulled what was the dumbest move of the night by hitting the button to open the hanger doors. God looks out for fools and Pilots! As the doors went up we realized that adding oxygen to that mix might not have been smart (!!!!!). The point was brought home by 2 loud bangs, one with a flash, by one of the heaters. Were I a cat, I'd say that was 8-2/3 of my 9 lives.

The rest of the finish waited for warmer days and was done by heating the hanger up warm and then shutting off the heaters completely while spraying, plus providing ventilation.

By the way, I WAS wearing a mask through all of this so I was only 90% a fool!

Dave,
Fair enough. Nice answers to my questions. Thanks.
Chris...

Sometime around 1970, the editor of MAN had an editorial concerning serious health problems he developed apparently from a single episode with several friends fiberglassing a number of planes in one batch. Polyester resin, heater going in the basement, windows open for ventilation. Took a lot of time and trouble to accidently run into a doctor who recognized the problem and more time to at least partially recover. He ended up retireing Can't remember if it was Art or Walt Schroeder.
A Staff Engineer I work with worked at a company that made fiberglass tanks for about 4 years. He still over 25 years later has the numbness and taste problems previously described.
The seriousness and the time frame to start showing problems after exposure will vary with personal susceptability, length of exposure, total amount , other chemicals exposed to at the time.
Like with asbestos. Many people were exposed for years, never had any health problems. There was a report of one person who died after only one exposure. Who knows for sure the future.

I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help you".

Does anyone still believe this BS anymore?

Dave, you're doing the right thing. Sharing information about
Hazmat is only bringing out the truth. Something a few other people I could mention SHOULD do.

Hello ALl!
Trying to read thru all the posts on this subject and I was wondering if someone would like to put together a construction article for Stunt News for a paint booth?
I'm not concerned about myself and exposure because I really don't paint that much.... but the concern is more for my children who will basicly have started their exposure from birth because their dad was building models in the house while they were growing up.

I'll build a paint booth - I just don't know what to use or how to do it, hence the article

>Hello ALl!
> Trying to read thru all the posts on this subject and I
>was wondering if someone would like to put together a
>construction article for Stunt News for a paint booth?
>I'm not concerned about myself and exposure because I really
>don't paint that much.... but the concern is more for my
>children who will basicly have started their exposure from
>birth because their dad was building models in the house
>while they were growing up.
>
>I'll build a paint booth - I just don't know what to use or
>how to do it, hence the article

I've built a few. The latest are used to paint something called an F-22. All of those are water-walls, though - which is a little too "Cadillac" for modeling. Dry filters load-up inconsistently with huge pressure drops and sometimes need replacement before a single plane is painted. In modeling sizes, though, they perform a lot better than nothing.

For a horizontal paint booth, you need to create a cross-sectional flow field of 100 fpm (feet per minute). Multiply the cross-sectional area by that velocity, and the result will be the size of the fan - in cfm (cubic feet per minute). Pressure losses in the filters and duct will determine the horsepower of the fan. For instance, a booth big enough for a large stunter might be 6 ft. x 6 ft. At 100 fpm, that would result in a fan size of 3600 cfm. A 1 hp fan might do the job. However, the fan would have to be explosion-proof, and you need to consider the entering air as well.

Things can get complicated quickly if it's done right. The whole key is maintaining that flow field in a laminar state. 100 fpm is an easily controllable velocity that is a standard throughout the industry - even for Level IV biological hoods. Obstructions or widely varying pressure drops (dry filters), though, can actually cause reverse flow in localized spots - bad for you and the paint.

Here's an example in the picture. The back wall is the "water-wall" - water pours down those sheet metal sections, and filters the paint from the air. Unlike dry filters, there is little or no pressure loss, and the pressure never changes. There is also a huge dry filter bank/set of doors in the front of the plane. However, since that side is not exhausting paint, the dry filters last a season or more.

Well Tom,
That doesn't look to complicated to build and that's a pretty cool model, but I don't know if I could get all the guys in the club to come over and help me paint it (or even to wear the same overalls) like you have going on here - is that in your backyard???!!!!

(He!He! HA! HA!)

P.S. This is definitely a joke comment with no harm intended

used to be my backyard ... I still visit on occasion, or to help a little ...

>Well Tom,
> That doesn't look to complicated to build and that's a
>pretty cool model, but I don't know if I could get all the
>guys in the club to come over and help me paint it (or even
>to wear the same overalls) like you have going on here - is
>that in your backyard???!!!!
>
>(He!He! HA! HA!)
>
>
>Good one!!