Hollow loggers finally come out of the closet -- I never wou

I never would have believed that so many people would come out and admit that they had a history of hollow logs. It was suppressed for almost half a century. Some of these same people used to claim the first model they ever built was a Veco Smoothie.

OK, I'll admit it. I experiment with two Ford Flivvers, but I never inhaled.

Seriously, I believe the reason for the popularity of the Scientific hollow log kits was their SIMPLICITY. There were the same basic EIGHT wood parts in every kit. Decal and trim were a lttle different, but always the same basics.

As I recall, they had a 100% success rate of assembly and flying. No other kit maker (in the hands of a beginner) could even come close.

Sure, they wouldn't stunt, but to the young customer, basic flying was the goal. Scientific HAD built-up wings as a next step.

One of my first successful models was a Lil Bipe, but of course it had over a dozen parts if you include all the strut parts. Once it was determined that it flew as well with one wing or two, we were right back to the original EIGHT basic parts!

Tools

The Scientific kits were a natural application of the Cox or Wen Mac .049 left over from that crummy plastic kit that didn't fly worth beans..

By comparison, these models flew very well. I had a Mustang, my brother had a Zig Zag, and my friend Rex Reed had a Stunt Master, which everyone lusted after.

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"A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin." -H.L. Mencken

Ya'll should've tried Carl Goldberg's stuff. The Swordsman 18's and P-40's were the essence of simplicity. They would stunt well - loops, wingovers, inverted flight, etc. I think they are even superior to Sig's SkyRay - the nose doublers glue over the wing. Unlike the SkyRay, it's almost impossible to shear the nose off.

The plastic Sterling/Midwest/Brodak 1/2A mount will do the same thing - it's just a nose waiting to break off (when it hits, of course). Typical Carl Goldberg 1/2A-flat wing engine mount:

I think this is why Scientific went out of business. I have had almost everyone of Goldberg's kits, big and small. DOC

LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-04 AT 03:51 PM (CDT)
 
>I think this is why Scientific went out of business. I have
>had almost everyone of Goldberg's kits, big and small. DOC

Ha!.... I'm not so sure Scientific is actually out of business..
they continued long after their model airplane venture. they got
into toys,doll houses ship models, scientific experiment kits etc...
Tony

>>I think this is why Scientific went out of business. I have
>>had almost everyone of Goldberg's kits, big and small. DOC
>
>Ha!.... I'm not so sure Scientific is actually out of
>buisness..
>they continued long after their model airplane venture.
>they got
>into toys,doll houses ship models, scientific experiment
>kits etc...

The urban legend I have heard is that Micro Mark is the same outfit (family) as Scientific, in which case they are far from out of business.

Andy

The son of John Frisoli, John Frisoli Jr. is the founder of Micromark.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-04 AT 03:52 PM (CDT)
 
>Ya'll should've tried Carl Goldberg's stuff. The Swordsman
>18's and P-40's were the essence of simplicity. They would
>stunt well - loops, wingovers, inverted flight, etc. I
>think they are even superior to Sig's SkyRay - the nose
>doublers glue over the wing. Unlike the SkyRay, it's almost
>impossible to shear the nose off.
>
>The plastic Sterling/Midwest/Brodak 1/2A mount will do the
>same thing - it's just a nose waiting to break off (when it
>hits, of course). Typical Carl Goldberg 1/2A-flat wing
>engine mount:

Tom, these particular Goldberg models came out long after the early
Scientific Little Mustangs,Devils, Bipes,Bel-Air,Pipers etc...
They were a viable next step from your busted Aeromite or OK Plastic
crashables. My first U/C model kit after my broken Aeromite was a
Berkeley Mini-Zilch, powered with the Baby Spitfire that fell out of
my Aeromite. Later I built and flew the Little Sabre, Little Devil,
Stuntmaster, American Boy(early short fuselage version) and various
Pond Boats( I can't even remember their names..). I even built and
played with the Scientific Nautilus Rubber powered Submarine..
Anyone else besides me remember that kit? By the time Goldberg
introduced the 1/2A U/C models, I was building and flying Half Fasts
Firecats, Omegas and various Veco things. The Hollow Logs seem to
fill the void for a throw together model that had a "real" fuselage
that when you squinted your eyes, looked like a real airplane...
especially when flying.
I did introduce my first two sons to control line modeling with the
Goldberg Wizard; this was after they had built and flown the Goldberg
prefab rubber series: Shoestring, Spirit Of St Louis...great flyers.
Tony G

Hey, my very first plane was a Lil' Wizard with WenMac .049.

>Hey, my very first plane was a Lil' Wizard with WenMac .049.

WOW, the Triple Crown on your first attempt!!!

1. Built-up wing.

2. Double-tapered.

3. Getting a Wen-Mac to run.

These hurdles have weeded out a lot of weakies.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-04 AT 11:14 AM (CDT)
 
My memory's not as good these days, but I thought the Lil' Wizard had a baseball bat for a wing - without a taper. Anything "built-up" about that wing was Mother Nature - when she grew the tree. A total beginner's model, it flew like a dog.

Maybe you were thinking the Lil' Jumping Bean instead?

>My memory's not as good these days, but I thought the Lil'
>Wizard had a baseball bat for a wing - without a taper.
>Anything "built-up" about that wing was Mother Nature - when
>she grew the tree. A total beginner's model, it flew like a
>dog.
>
>Maybe you were thinking the Lil' Jumping Bean instead?

Correct. The Lil' Wizard has a straight solid wood plank for a wing. Pre-carved to a flat-bottomed airfoil shape, no less. Also massive tip wight, and a "sophisticated" fail safe device (rubber band attached to bell crank).

Andy

I Little Wizard was my first 1/2A Proto Speed model! It had the red tank mount and a Tee Dee 051 ( I didn't know any better) with some Tornado "press woods" as dad calls them.
Chris...

>>Hey, my very first plane was a Lil' Wizard with WenMac .049.
>
>WOW, the Triple Crown on your first attempt!!!
>
>1. Built-up wing.
>
>2. Double-tapered.
>
>3. Getting a Wen-Mac to run.
>
>These hurdles have weeded out a lot of weakies.

I stand corrected. I was really thinking about a Goldberg "Lil Jumping Bean". I came across a Scientific Little Devil, but I'm still looking for a picture of a kit for Little Wizard.

>I stand corrected. I was really thinking about a Goldberg
>"Lil Jumping Bean". I came across a Scientific Little
>Devil, but I'm still looking for a picture of a kit for
>Little Wizard.

Like this?

Andy

I found the orignal debut of the Little Wizard in the July 1965 Model Airplane News.

I was well beyond trainers by then. The Wiz lacked a few attributes of a good trianer, like a fuselage that didn't break.

But it did have one great idea - A RUBBER BAND ENGINE MOUNT. When I built a few trainer to teach beginners, I always use that feature. It saves a lot of breakage.

I dispense with the useless plywood backplate. I just put pegs in the motor mount instead of bolts. A peg thrpugh the fuselage, and rubber bands over the bolt holes. Perfect.

Swordsman,

That's the one! Getting the WenMac to run wasn't that hard. Not if you'd fought it on plastic planes long enough.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-04 AT 10:58 AM (CDT)
 
Another oft-forgotten manufacturer of "log" models was Enterprise. Their Zenith series were made in several sizes and all had built-up wings. Some kits dated from the early fifties did not show a bellcrank on the plans because of the Walker patent:

Bill Groman

Most of the Scientific models I had would at least do loops and wingovers. Babe-Bees just seemed to empty the tank or otherwise starve the engine when I'd try outside loops.
I also had several of the Enterprise models as well. Usually seemed a bit heavier tha Scientific.
I still am flying a couple of the Goldberg 1/2A models, a Little Toot and the 1/2A (VooDoo?) flying wing. I am also still flying a Scientific Big Otto, although it's a bit large for the Black Widow.
For some reason, most of the Goldberg 1/2A kits I bought seemed to have poor die cutting, especially compared to the larger kits and their rubber powered free flight models.
One of my most successful CL models until the early sixties was an Enterprise P-51 with an OK Cub 099. Fast in circles, but you couldn't pick the nose up quick for a loop or wingover without stalling the engine.

>I still am flying a couple of the Goldberg 1/2A models, a
>Little Toot and the 1/2A (VooDoo?) flying wing.

More likely a Lil' Satan...

Andy

OK, I'll admit this now. My friends and I once took a Lil' Satan and started it up and just let it go at a school yard. I remember it was a riot. Went pretty much straight up, the engine quit and...we never saw it again.

I built a Li'l Satan one time ('67) and installed a Babe Bee. Some young boys came along and watched me break-in the engine.
We talked models for awhile and when they left I gave it to them.
Never saw that one again either.

I probably built every one that was put out, along with the Goldberg line, but have not run into many who have built the Ambroid kits. I believe it was either 1960 or 61, I had a modified Ambroid Maverick with a hopped up McCoy .35 flying Jr. Rat at the KOI, Masters Field, Miami FL.; a bicycle ride from the house. There was also a Matador, a Whipsaw and most of all...Ambriod Cement.
A little Sidebar: Broke a line during the pull test, I was devastated to say the least...my only set of lines...Up walks a lady, who I thought I recognized, "here! use these, they're solids." I got my heat in and found the lady to thank her and give her back the lines, "keep-em, I got another set." It was at that moment, I realized that she was the famous Betty Bell. Like those Ambroid kits I remember and some don't. She was a part of my earlier years in model aviation...an experience I have never forgotten.

BLACK HAWK

My first airplane was a Scientific model kit with a Babe Bee on the nose. I think that more first timers flew hollow logs than any other model except the Cox PT-19. That is why when a couple of kids came into my store, a couple of years ago, with an old broken 1/2A ringmaster wanting to fly it, and that flight brought in 15 more kids wanting trainners I decided to kit a few for them. I first checked to see what was available, there was nothing. Now I produce hundreds of these kits and give lots away because it is my way of getting kids back into the hobby.

I had to jump in here. In the 50’s, many Scientific logs appeared in our little C/L group.
My first was the Atomic, with a Space Bug Jr. in the nose. Since we built right from the kits (sandpaper? What’s that?) the planes were understandably heavy. They flew as one would expect a log to fly!

The happy memories were rekindled a few years back when Tom McClain and the NVCL group told us about their Musciano event, a get-together dedicated to Walt Musciano and his array of miniature masterpieces. I was truly amazed by the number of designs from this extremely talented gentleman.

The club furnished a list of eligible planes (all with solid wings) and engines, to compete in speed, team race and stunt. They were also judged on appearance by Walt himself – the guest of honor.

I have participated in four events and never realized how much fun could be had with these modest little gems. The event also includes a section for Walt’s other designs, of which there were many. The winner is really Walt’s choice.

My favorite has become the “Bullet” pictured. It flies well with an OK Cub .049, weighs just over four ounces and will do most of the pattern.

That's a beautiful plane, Bob. The cockpit details look fantastic...but it's what appears to be a 1" aluminum spinner that really caught my eye.

As to the sandpaper remark, I think most of us were so anxious to get them in the air that removing the saw marks was sanding a lot.

If I can get a pic to post, this is one of my Little Bipes. Not for competition, just for fun. Oh, and the left handed prop was just handy for the pic.

This is a great thread...

A few comments...

1. Paul: You are wrong in stating that the Logs won't stunt. As Z Man earlier posted, he can do nearly a full pattern with his Bullet, and other models. Even I have done loops, lazy 8s, outsides, wingovers, inverted, etc with a Cyclone, and a very light Bullet. Lots of guys in the NVCL can really wring out these little airplanes.

2. Andy: You are correct. Micro Mark's owner is the son of John Frisoli, the owner of Scientific. We met John Frisoli, Jr at the '02 meet. He was a great guy to talk to, and he favored us all with goodie bags of Micro Mark stuff.

3. Bill: It certainly is true that Enterprise is largely forgotten now, at least 1/2A wise. The workmanship of their kits was a touch better than Scientific, I think. They had some really neat kits, like the Hawker Sea Fury, the Moonliner (shows up a "lot" on ebay), various Warbird scale ships, etc. They were essentially using the same Hollow Log layout as Scientific, and even copied their ad copy, to a degree. Overall, Scientific did a better marketing job, I think.

4. 50PlusYears: I am surprised that a Black Widow (a two port Cox) did not pull your Big Otto sufficiently. How heavy was it?

Paul Del Gatto was the designer for many of the 1/2A planes for Enterprise, Also the whipsaw,Hawker Typhoon and many of the other profile and free flight models in the Enterprise line. A real shame that he passed away so young in life, a truly gifted, prolific designer.
Dennis

LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 02:18 PM (CDT)
 
> Paul Del Gatto was the designer for many of the 1/2A planes
>for Enterprise, Also the whipsaw,Hawker Typhoon and many of
>the other profile and free flight models in the Enterprise
>line. A real shame that he passed away so young in life, a
>truly gifted, prolific designer.

I've always been a great admirer of his work, in particular, his beautiful drawings (the FM data sheets come to mind). I'm sorry to hear he died young. Can you provide a little more history on this?

Thanks,

Andy

LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-04 AT 06:28 PM (CDT)
 
Hi all,
As well as Scientific and Enterprise models, I got into building these old Del Gatto designed Consolidated kits when Tony Drago started to get some in the late eighties.

This Consolidated Typhoon was built by my eldest son Jeremiah in 1991 when he was ten, he won the Nationals with it that year. He then refinished it with Aerogloss dope and Chromoclear using an airbrush later in the year. He then won a best finish award from the late Virgil Wilbur at a Whittier Narrows contest in Socal in 1992.

It flies fast and has a short glide. It is powered by a Babe Bee with a Tee Dee cylinder and piston, a half lapped Tornado 5x4 proved too much for it though. A two blade Tornado 5x3 is just right for a flying prop. (With forty two foot .008's it would run about 60 mph , so for a scale ship it wasn't too bad)!

>This is a great thread...
>
>A few comments...
>
>1. Paul: You are wrong in stating that the Logs won't stunt.
>As Z Man earlier posted, he can do nearly a full pattern
>with his Bullet, and other models. Even I have done loops,
>lazy 8s, outsides, wingovers, inverted, etc with a Cyclone,
>and a very light Bullet. Lots of guys in the NVCL can really
>wring out these little airplanes.
>

The GULFHAWK and CADET certainly DID stunt pretty well, they weren't really "hollow logs", the Gulfhawk was profile and the Cadet had a box fuselage. Both had nice built-up wings.

The really down & dirty hollow logs had 18 x 3 plank wings. These beauties could do big loops and wingovers. I guess there's degrees of "stunt".

Actually, it gets it off the ground and around the circle on .008 42' lines cleanly. Seems like when I set up the control system 30 some years ago, I didn't get enough elevator movement.
One of the other replies brought back some old memories. A Whipsaw, Cub 19 eardrum blaster. Fast enough to make me dizzy, but for some reason, I never could keep any of my Cubs running if I picked up the nose up to any degree. Also, the 19 seemed to require a blood sacrifice or a rapped knuckle before it would start. Very sensitive on the needle, too.
The only Ambroid kit I ever had flying was the Ares. Fox 35. Used to fly double with an AF buddy who put a K&B 35. His was faster, but we were frequently able to get coordinated manuvers. It's funhaving two planes do opposing double wingovers in the same circle.
I had a lot of the Scientifc logs, even a couple of their built-up and profile fuse jobs. Only thing I have left from them is their 13" HMS Bounty. Took me over 8 years to build.

Only thing I have left from
>them is their 13" HMS Bounty. Took me over 8 years to
>build.

Me too. Mine was a 13th birthday present from my late mother. Too precious to build now...

Andy

50Plus: Try some shorter lines for the Big Otto. Something where the first digit is less than 4.

Hi, George - glad you noticed the spinner. It's an old Froom I found at a flea market.
I used it for a guide when I molded the fiberglass cowl for the Bullet.

Shameless Commerce...I have 1 1/8" and 1 1/4" NIB Veco spinners available.

I SHOULD HAVE started out with simpler models. But the ones you describe didn't come out until much later.

My very first C/L was a converted free flight Spook 48 with bellcrank and elevator. The engine (O&R 23) didn't get it off the ground, but it ran around the circle on the grass pretty well. Second model was a Baby Miss Behave with solid wood wing (joined at the center)which broke on every landing..Glue and fly, glue and fly. Third model was Cleveland Tether Sharpie: hard to build but the kit was only $1.

All this happened before 1947.

I guess its time for me to come out of the closet. My first airplane was a Scientific Golden Hawk, Cub 049A. I now have a a replacement but with a Black Widow. My second airplane was a Scientific Air Champ(biplane) Fox 09. I still have it and still fly it, but with a Cub 074, the engine I couldn't afford then. Fox 09 was $4.95, Cub 074 was $5.45.
Happy Landings

See the new thread on the Cox RR-1 and the Hollow Logs.....

I confess I had a Super Stuntmaster and an Enterprise Lil Darling. I feel much better.
Chris...