Holding the handle

This may sound a little off the wall, but how do you hold the handle in relation to your fingers/hand?
I hold it out in my fingers, with basically none of my palm on it.
Bill <><

Bill,

I like these kinds of questions. I have watched fliers at contests just to see their posture/stance for doing different manuevers. I hold the handle like you described,mostly with just my fingers, no palm. When I learned to fly real airplanes the instructor showed how to trim the airplane to fly it with my thumb and forefinger on the yoke. It doesn't take much control input and gripping the yoke/handle with your whole hand and palm can lead to unwanted input. That has kinda stuck with me ever since. Plus, when I have to "Hang On" to the handle, I usually have other concerns that need adressed.

Same with me, and I try to use the index and the pinky fingers as the "controllers".

Jake one told ma that good control is pressure, not movements, and I agree.

Normal piloting is pressure based (full scale that is) I was taught the same way--light pressure.

BUT. Did you ever see video, in cockpit, of Patty Wagstaff flying areobatics. Kinda dispells the pressure only idea!

Oh yes, but she is not in a "normal" flying attitude. Not ever!!!I only wish I could do that type of flying.

>Oh yes, but she is not in a "normal" flying attitude. Not
>ever!!!I only wish I could do that type of flying.

Ty, you can do that type of flying. It's called radio Control.

Yes, you can fly with your thumbs, but you can't fly by the seat of your pants.

Light pressure when in straight & level flight....Obviously if you deviate from straight & level the control input pressure will increase..sometimes by a lot....The only time Patty Wagstaff is straight and level is at the hold line.

Tnx, Mike, the "Old Harley Man" [email protected]

Hi Bill:

I have dwelled on this at times also. I find myself starting out with a rather firm grip on the handle for upright and inverted. But when I start doing the square manuevers, I relax the handle out to the middle finger area, away from the palm and use more of the index finger and little finger for control. I have even realized that I have Pushed on the front bar with my little finger at the bottom of the hourglass.

I suspect that this should be telling me that I need more sensitivity (more spacing at the handle) but I hesitate to do that right now since I like the way the plane becomes "isolated" from my disruptions while in level and inverted.

Anxious to hear from some others on this.

Sure wish I could have watched you fly last week. Perhaps in June.

This is not sumtin ya tink bout too much. Interesting question.. After giving it some thought, it seems I use the death grip. Maybe that's why I have so much fun landing inverted?? Nah. I like to hold it with just three fingers, the little pinkie seems to hang out in the air. I tend to use my thumb on top to give the just slight movement thingy. I use full arm extension for the most part and try to keep the handle in front of me, sighting down my arm to the plane. In some maneuvers I use the whole hand on the handle, usually loops, vertical eights, but not the hourglass.
Next time I fly I will be more conscious of how I hold the handle. This is probably where I make some control inputs I shouldn't. See what ya started Bill? Now I gots ta think.

>
> I use full arm extension for the most part and try to keep
>the handle in front of me, sighting down my arm to the
>plane.

I tend to not use the full arm extension so I have some additional control of line tension in some manuevers. I once read (probably here) were stepping into or out from the manuever can control speed.

I had never given any thoughts to how I hold the handle until I started experimenting with tip weights and leadout positions at the extreme. On one flight the line tension was so heavy I ws amazed at how red my fingers were from hanging on. Maybe it's also from too much golf too.

Not a silly question at all....
I am not an expert, so take this as you will....
I hold the handle so that my hand is a fist, ie my fingers are pulled back as far as they can go, having said that... I only grip as hard as I need to, to achieve the above so that I can feel what the plane is telling me.
So, to paraphrase.... I make a Fist.... but NOWHERE near "White-knuckle City"
Re-reading... the above looks awkward... hope it helps.
Like so many of the things in our hobby you must try things and do what works for you.
This is one of the things I like about Control-Line planes.....this sort of question looks simple to answer, but is, actually, fairly complicated.

Interesting question, this is something you don’t think about much. I’d like to say I hold with a firm grip but not sure. If video taped like a golfer analyzing his swing to fine tune, something very different would show. I do know this though; I use a Hot Rock and find that I tend to hold more of the upper portion of the handle, my thumb over the top with approximately a 110 degree bend at the elbow.

I hold it in the palm of my hand. If I held it out on my fingers my fingers would get too tired to really mash it for the corners.

Do you fly maneuvers with the handle straight out in front of you, or do you drop your hand/arm down and to the right a bit? I was wondering about that yesterday when flying-Lyn coached me one time to keep my hand out in front of me, but I have trouble with my hand being a distraction to me if I can see it during the maneuver.

I just try not to get tangled up. Bend my elbow and keep the handle in front.

In watching Billy W. fly the pattern in practice and competition, it looks like the handle is in front of him centered and just below eye level. It seems he never moves it, except when doing verticals and overheads. The grip does not look like a death grip, but, fingers wrapped around the handle. Be nice to get his word on this as he makes it look so easy. DOC

Yes and lots of folks copy him by holding their left hand at their chest. It looks silly when they do it. I think Billy does it so he can push the button to his pace maker. He is getting old ya know. LOL:P

THere is a perfectly sound biomechanical explanation for hold your free arm in the center of your body. Bill actually does some other movements with the free hand--I liken it to watching a musical conductor "mirror" with the opposite hand.

Big Art is also a proponent of keeping your flying hand centered and your body square to the plane. Tensing the free hand up in the center of the body seems to help alot of people avoid flying off the shoulder and not square to the body.

Try it, it might help.

Ted Fancher's advice to more or less "follow the model like you're painting with a brush" works well. Following around loops does wonders for getting rid of the unwanted twitches and corners. If you think about it, when you are coming down the back side of the loops, if you don't follow the plane with your hand it will get below the handle. For most folks this is automatic up and an abrupt pullout. If you follow around with your hand you quickly learn to set the turn with the amount of hand movement and you can easily make little corrections while the plane is in the loop.

There are lots of other places in the pattern where you have to watch the relationship between the plane, your hand, and the center of rotation. If you stop moving your hand the lines effectively shorten about 2.5 ft suddenly and the point of rotation switches from somewhere around your chest to out at the handle. Can add all sorts of unwanted twitches to the flight path.

One thing you should watch out for if you follow the plane with the handle; you can really get messed up on the top part of the outside loops on a horizontal eight. Pop yourself in the nose if you're not careful.

>I hold it in the palm of my hand. If I held it out on my
>fingers my fingers would get too tired to really mash it for
>the corners. (my emphasis)

>Steve

Hey VMI Dude,
Sounds like you need to dial out some line tension and dial in some corner. Or hit the gym like your alma mater's football team !! hahahahahahaha
One of my good friends is listed in Guiness as having the world's strongest grip. I can give you a copy of his book!

Bill <><

>>I hold it in the palm of my hand. If I held it out on my
>>fingers my fingers would get too tired to really mash it for
>>the corners. (my emphasis)
>
>>Steve
>
>Hey VMI Dude,
>Sounds like you need to dial out some line tension and dial
>in some corner. Or hit the gym like your alma mater's
>football team !! hahahahahahaha
>One of my good friends is listed in Guiness as having the
>world's strongest grip. I can give you a copy of his book!
>
>

The fatigue problem really comes in when I'm practicing with Willis and JT. They tend to get their flying done early, and when I get there, they usually sit and chill while I put up six or seven consecutive flights. Even with the little TM 50 I start to feel it in my wrist and forearm. I've tried and currently use the deal of putting my left hand up on my chest, while at first I figured Willis and friends would think I was having a coronary and taunt me, it does seem to help pull my right arm closer to my body and not leave me flying everything well offset to my right. I guess next thing is to try and bulk up some-while it won't help my schools football team survive the fourth quarter, it might help me get some more flights in without the hand turning to jelly. I moved my handle spacing out alot after trying Kent's Windy handle, and reduced stick forces alot for the squares. I probably do have too much yaw dialed in, but the line tension seems so consistent from level flight to overhead, I'm not ready to fool with it much.-Mostly I probably need to reduce the rudder offset a tad and see what that does...

Bill:

Same for me just the fingers. Look at other peoples handles you'll see a lot with finger grooves in them would seem to indicate mostly fingers. Observed handles at a combat match and a lot of them had finger grooves in their handles too.

I use Morris handles fitted to my grip. I carefully grip before takeoff so the handle is touching the first joins of my fingers. That is wrapped well but not clinched. I usually end up with my thumb vertical touching the top of the handle. It seems to give me better control. I've been through carpal tunnel surgery and have lost some control so it seems to help ot hold it like that. I used to be a finger flyer, but the larger models also forced me to a more captive grip.

Harleyman and Old_Harley man, maybe I should change my handle to Old_Indianman.

>Harleyman and Old_Harley man, maybe I should change my
>handle to Old_Indianman.
>
>Randy Ryan <><
>AMA 8500
>SAM 36
>BO all my own M's

Have at it Randy! Like I said earlier, motorcycles and flying seem to go together.
Chris

>This may sound a little off the wall, but how do you hold
>the handle in relation to your fingers/hand?
>I hold it out in my fingers, with basically none of my palm
>on it.

Remarkably good question - and there is (I believe) a correct answer, at least if you are talking about competitive stunt. Fingers! I hold my hand with the second joint (counting from the fingertip, technically, the joint between the middle and proximal phalanx) right in line with the axis of the grip. Any further out on the fingers, and you can't hold on to it for long enough with enough dexterity, and too far in, and you lose the ability to make small movements with the finger muscles.

I love being a beginner, so it feels good when someone tells me I'm improving and or have Great ideas. So how Great Thou Art is this one.
Hold your handle as if you are holding and feeling your plane right in the cockpit.

>I love being a beginner, so it feels good when someone tells
>me I'm improving and or have Great ideas. So how Great Thou
>Art is this one.
>Hold your handle as if you are holding and feeling your
>plane right in the cockpit.
Well, Greg, I don't think that is quite right.

You can literally fly a 747 with your fingertips as you suggest because all you are doing is nudging an already properly trimmed airplane into a slightly different attitude and then letting physics take its course.

The difference with a stunt ship is you not only have to nudge the desired control input (and that can be quite subtle like the real airplane) but you also have to restrain it from flying away from you (as the Dirt described). Thus, the finger tip and thumb approache must be modified to a level consistent with maintaining physical contact with the vehicle.

With the old .35 sized ships or the current .20 and .25 sized ones the difference isn't too dramatic although the line tension certainly requires more than mere finger tip contact. With some of the modern big iron, especially some of the four strokers and the very strong tuned pipe .60s for instance, a truly meaningful handful of handle is pretty much a requirement.

An interesting aspect to this subject is the comments in many threads over the years regarding trimming to moderate line tension. The absolute necessity to restrain the desire of the airplane to fly away from us makes hanging on tightly enough the number one criteria. If the tension is so great that the handle needs a death grip to do so you are absolutely playing havoc with your ability to fly a precise, modulated and properly finessed pattern. It can get like trying to trim your fingernails with Paul Bunyan's axe!

"You can literally fly a 747 with your fingertips"

You reach out to the Mode Control Panel on the glareshield and use your fingertips thereon. The excellent autopilot and autothrottle will take it from there.

Hey Howard,
How about those of us who will never experience the thrill of flying a 747?? How do you hold your C/L handle? hahahahaha
Bill <><

Brett,

You've described what I tried to but I didn't know the anatomical names. I very carefully position my fingers before takeoff otherwise I have to correct which will cause a "bobble" every time.

My own handles, which are all home-brew, have scallops for my fingers. That implies that I fly with fingers, and not the entire hand. This seems most comfortable to me.

I tend to turn my hand slightly horizontal when flying inverted, or when an inverted pullout is required. I think it is easier to pull sideways rather than "down" for outside pull-outs.

Remember: I am an aspiring Advanced pilot, but with C/L roots dating from 1944. I know what is required, but I can't seem to get it just right! Maybe someday...

Remarkably good question - and there is (I believe) a correct answer, at least if you are talking about competitive stunt. Fingers! I hold my hand with the second joint (counting from the fingertip, technically, the joint between the middle and proximal phalanx) right in line with the axis of the grip. Any further out on the fingers, and you can't hold on to it for long enough with enough dexterity, and too far in, and you lose the ability to make small movements with the finger muscles.

Brett

Agreed. That's where I hold my handle, out on the fingers, but not too far out.

The only reason this has ever come up at contests is when someone is looking at my handle(s) and judges it/them to be too small for my hand. And they are, if I just grab ahold of the sucker and squeeze. But in relaxing my grip, letting handle slide out to my fingers, they fit snugly but perfectly.

In giving this further thought, back when we were flying *a lot,* as in every Wednesday evening, of 1/2A Combat around here I would fly the light-pulling little things with handle clear out on the tips of my fingers.

Someone bumped my flying hand during a match--it was pre-thong days--and model, engine, streamer, lines and handle all headed off for the woods around Redmond, Washington, home to a small software company of no consequence.

Didn't even try to chase it down. It was certainly going to land in some pretty substantial Douglas fir trees, with lines attached you know it was going to be well and truly stuck 80 feet or so up...

On the subject of handle thongs (is that where we were?)

I use a leather boot lace available almost everywhere. To secure the ends, use some copper wire that you use to make your control lines .An aluminum ring can be salvaged from an old Ford carburetor repair kit (you still have one of those?)

Floyd

Oregon State Motto: "It actually rains more in Hawaii."

I hold the handle with my fingers and my...........thumb; sorta like a guitar neck grip;......... maybe thats the problem

Could,nt be the pilot.

>On the subject of handle thongs (is that where we were?)
>
>I use a leather boot lace available almost everywhere. To
>secure the ends, use some copper wire that you use to make
>your control lines .

I used to use leather boot laces, too. But since they started pull-testing the thongs at the NATs, it became evident that these degenerate too quickly to last. The *only* thongs I saw break were the leather ones. They'll pass when they're brand new, but after they sit around for a while, they break easily.

I switched to the woven synthetic boot laces, and no more problem - been using the same thongs for about 5-6 years now, and they have been repeatedly tested.

>An aluminum ring can be salvaged from an
>old Ford carburetor repair kit (you still have one of
>those?)

The only Ford I have ever owned is fuel-injected. But I do have several Stromberg carb rebuild kits lying around from my Lotus days. It has things like rabbit's feet and Ouija boards - but no useful aluminum rings.

OK. Good advice. I'll replace the leather with somehing else. Also, reading all the horror stories about the stainless steel cables on my handles, I'll replace them before I make another flight! Thanks!