Calling the Experts (for Eddy R.) or anyone else.......

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-04 AT 01:03 PM (CDT)
 
The most difficult part, to me, of the pattern remains the inverted pullout on the reverse wingover. maybe because it takes soooo long to get to the point, or whatever.
What is/are the "trick(s)" to get this down?
It just ain't the same as outside squares.
Bill <><

Practice...

Find a good, sadistic coach... suffer the comments with a smile...

Then,

Practice...

>Practice...
>
>Find a good, sadistic coach... suffer the comments with a
>smile...
>
>Then,
>
>Practice...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, practice, practice, practice.......
Problem: I get maybe two practice flights when I get to a contest. The rest of the time I get maybe an average of 10 practice flights a month. Even less this year.
I was told by a good friend/ex NATS Walker Trophy winner a little tip to help with this. Mainly want to see if anyone has a tip like that or not. WHEN I get a chance to fly again, I am going to try it out I think.
Bill <><

Bill,
I like these kinda threads-I am not sure there is a "right" and/or expert solution to this manuever..There are so many valid effective approaches to this challenging event...I believe there are always different varibales at work--If the plane is trimmed within reason, turning equal outsides and insides, etc--Then I believe your headed in the right direction--I think with tricks like the reverese wingover where that sense of timing is so critical, one should never ignore what I would identify as the pyschology of the "trick".--Meaning the fear and mistrust/anxiety invlolved. That nervous belief you are going to miss and hit the ground, what I term the "internal" messages connected to the trick...We all have them...Think about it? The wingover; you are so focused, because it is your "first" impression on the judges.(We all know about first impressions!!!.For me, hit a nice wingover, bingo, my confidence level increases..It sets the tone for the whole pattern in my eyes..I think balance is so critical, meaning that where you initiate the trick is where you should end the trick. In sort of D. Cook's philosophy..Meaning that all turns/corners are equal in height..The presntation is so important--Hitting unequal bottoms on a reverse wingover looks impaired..With me its just natural, I feel more comforatble turing insides than outsides,,So I know that it is important for me to really concentrate on hitting that outside turn because it goes against my comfort level..Having an airplane nose toward the ground is fear provoking, managing my anxiety level prior to flying competitively is a must for me...The higher my anxiety level, the more likely I am to make errors in judgment in relation to cornering my ship. Not to ignore the technical aspect, but the mental preparation is very much relavent here. Especially, concerning a wingover. I have set a goal for myself to work toward acheiving balance on the wingover, as oppossed to nailing a that 4ft bottom on the inverted pullout...Bill, maybe this sounds like nothing you already did not know, but, practicing, with a renewed focus on what you have identifed as a weakness in your pattern, is qoute "the expert solution....Someone, may offer you a better a more technical/scientific approach--My best suggestion would be to address your anxiety/pychological influence regarding this trick. Accepting, and realizing that your nerves/fear can very much "influence" how your pattern presents itself..Also, realizing that it all begins w/the wingover.. David

Hi David,
I agree so much about the first impression. I believe it more nerves of the first "manuever" that gets me keyed up causing a level of impatience while waiting for the plane to eventually get to the right level for the pull out.
The ship I am presently flying is well trimmed out. (6 years old and quite a few contests and flights) I experience this problem about 90% of the time with any plane.
Bottom outside turns in the squares and sq. 8's I can deal with pretty well when I get some practice.
Practice is key, but not a reality right now. Probably won't get in a whole lot of flights before the New Year.
Thanks
Bill <><

Hi Bill:

I too have that problem. But I have finally begun to make some progress based on a tip from my friend John Paris. His input was "fly the plane off the end of your arm and not the terrain"

I had to contemplate that for a while--didn't have a chance to discuss it with him at the time.

But this is how I distilled it:

This is not a place where "eye-hand coordination" will work. ie, I cant watch as the plane closes with the ground and do the normal, closed-loop control algorithm and make the turn at 5 feet. The control loop (me! eye to brain<process>brain to hand loop) will not go fast enough to make it work consistently. And playing the game of trying to learn the correct delay and pre-command the turn is really asking for it! This is what I believe John means when he says dont fly to the terrain. You cant just say, "well here I am at 10' above the ground--time to start the 5' radiuss turn".

So, I have concentrated on keeping the plane flying right off the end of my hand. If I can do that consistently, without alot of concious thought, then I can do the rest. I (and everyone else) can easily move our arm and hand imitating the correct flight path for the pullout of the wingover. I'm sure you've done it a million times. Same every time. Now, if the plane is flying off your hand, you simply do the same thing as without the plane. The plane will follow.

As I get more "in tune" with the consistent speed of the manuever, the amount of control input it takes, and the path the plane will take through the turn, I have gotten more comfortable with this off-the-end of-the-hand thing.

AND...I know this works. To me I have evidence in the replay of my crash at the Nats at the inverted pullout in the WO. I've told the story before..brain lock-up at twelve o'clock not remembering if I needed to go upright or inverted...slight delay and bobble to the upright direction..realize what was going on and then splat..that few milliseconds it took to realize the error and change back to the correct path put me about 6' too low for a 5' pullout!

But here is the proof...when the plane hit, I wasn't looking at it! I had already run my arm and hand through the pullout sequence and into level inverted flight and I was looking out ahead of the impact point ready to pick up the target I knew was following my hand through the corner.

I know this kind of rambles on...hopefully it makes some sense to you and perhaps some of the big guns will comment here..

Oh yeah, it really is just practice! Learned muscle response.

FWIW

Hi Curt,
That is very akin to the "tip" I was given by my good friend.
Hopefully I can get in some flights this weekend and see just how this works.
Thanks!
Bill <><

>>And playing the game of trying to learn the correct delay and pre-command the turn is really asking for it! <<

When I do this, I end up with a nice, consistent pullout...at about 2 feet.

I think it's a timing maneuver. You get use to the plane and how it turns, practice the maneuver with pullouts at the spot you want to hit and practice until you can it that spot every time.

Sure sounds easy....

Curt,
Sounds like I may have finally helped someone. Thanks for the kind words. You are right about your analysis. When the arm is finally parallel to the ground, you had better be at the end of your turn, and boom you are there at 5 feet. Just understand where your arm needs to be to make that initial change in flight direction.

You know, I still feel a little bad about the comment I made to your son prior to the ill-fated flight at the Nats. For those who weren't there, Curt had a good start and take off, transitioned well into level flight and then did the first part of the wing over. He was in pull out position when he rotated inside ever so slightly and then poked in the outside part (brain fade as he said). He hit the hardtop at about 20-30 degrees to the horizon. Plane was a loss, but I think that the engine was okay. Now for the part that makes me feel bad-his son carried out the airplane as I was doing something in the pits and then I came out to launch. He asked me if there was anything that he needed to do and I responded, like a smart-a**, get a bag for the pieces.....Moral of the story, no negative comments prior to any flight, just a quick "Have fun!!" to the pilot, salute the airplane after release and be ready to pick it up after the flight...

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-04 AT 08:08 PM (CDT)
 
First thing, you might build a sturdy slow-combat style plane to practice with. Something that can hit the dirt at 60 or so several times and not need major repairs. Much easier than rebuilding stunters. As our beloved Dirt pointed out in another thread, a combat plane like a Flite Streak is plenty capable of doing very good maneuvers. Just takes practice. An ARF Streak is not the plane for this. Too fragile, even though some folks have crashed them without too much damage. You need a sturdy slow combat plane.

Try softening the corner for awhile. Make a fairly large corner, but concentrate on flying the plane down and around and hitting level at 5 ft. smoothly. John P's suggestion of "flying the plane off the end of your arm" is a good one. Once you can do a nice, soft, 30 ft. corner, then you can work on tightening it up.

Ya gotta remember, a sharp corner is not a bang! snap full down deal. You have to rapidly and smoothly bring the controls from straight to the max you want(which should be half way through the turn) and then rapidly back to neutral on the new heading. And don't forget to follow around the corner with your arm as CapCurt mentioned. Not following the plane around will result in hippity hops and wobbles.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-04 AT 10:22 PM (CDT)
 
The reverse wing over huh?

I too have had some real problems coming to grips with that first outside corner but here's what has helped me.

You're going to have to get to the point where your aircraft is trimmed to the point where you don't have to worry about things like tracking, line tension, motor run etc.

You'll also need to be flying well enough, that doing decent inside and outside maneuvers, wing overs and overheads are an everyday thing, instead of a 'great accomplishment'. If your plane's are lasting several months, instead of a week or two, you should be OK.

If you are that far along, you'll be comfortable enough that you don't have to watch (And fly!) your plane every moment.

If so, try this:

Before takeoff and during my level laps I check the wind direction carefully and decide exactly where I'm going to begin the RWO. When the plane is one quarter of a Lap away from the pull up point I turn to face the exact spot where I want the plane to pull vertical. Then, I fly the plane across my field of vision and apply up elevator and pull the plane smoothly into a 90° wing over, tracking it as it acends.

Once the plane is directly overhead, I turn my body so that I'm now facing the other side of the circle, exactly 180° from the pull up point. At this time, I'm no longer watching the (Now descending.) plane. I focus my attention on the point where I want to execute my pull out, hopefully at five or 6 feet of elevation.

I try to hold my attention on that area, while letting my aircraft fly down into my field of vision again and apply down elevator to pull out at 5 or 6 feet.

As the plane, now inverted, flies to my right I follow it with my body until I am 90° from the inverted pull out. Here, I plant myself and fly the plane to the point where I began the maneuver and apply down elevator to pull the plane up into a wing over again. If I have performed in this part correctly, my right arm is following my plane up while my left arm is aligned with the pull out point.

I once again let the plane climb until its directly overhead. When it reaches that spot, I turn my body to face the pull out point, once again focusing my attention on that spot and lettting the plane fly into my field of focus once more. This time it's a relarively simple matter to apply up elevator and smoothly reenter level flight.

For me, things started coming together once I had enough confidence in both my aircraft and my flying ability, that I could concentrate on the pullout positions, instead of being wrapped up in what the plane was doing every second. Your attention needs to be increasingly on THE MANEUVER and not on the aircraft. Later on, your attention will shift to the overall PATTERN instead of the maneuvers.

Ultimately your mind turns off completely and then they bury you. Hopefully that won't happen for a while!

Good luck,

BIGS

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-04 AT 00:57 AM (CDT)
 
Bill,

I got a couple of tips for you.

Frst of all I know you are not a beginner so we are not going to treat this like a beginner.

I noticed you said you get better with more flights. This tells me that it is more of a comfort level than an amount of practice that is needed. You are talking about the part of the maneuver that needs a large amount of comfort in order to be good.

I have some how gotten myself one heck of a RWO. I dont normaly like to brag but I love that maneuver and I think I can do it pretty well and here is how I did it.

A crazy but good habit to get into while flying the pattern is to talk outloud to yourself while you are flying. That's right talk it out! Tell yourself what you are going to do what mistakes you will NOT make and the type of the maneuever that is next in line. Once you get used to talking outloud to yourself you will be amazed at how well you can concentrate through an entire pattern. You will be keying in on the mistakes you normally make before you make them and you will notice them go away.

On the RWO I spend all 5 laps picking my spot for the start AND FINISH. I have my feet inline with the arc way ahead of time and fly foot to foot never moving my body. As the plane approaches the ground I am telling myself to "Hold The Line" or simply "Hold It" or "Drive It" Then I snap it out hard for the pullout. This talking outloud helps keep me from pulling it out early. It makes me focus in directly on the pullout. Hearing it outloud really makes a difference. Like someone barking an order at you while you perform. It really helps. If I am really AMPED up I start getting loud. I had one guy say he could hear me getting ready for a Sqr 8 in a hard big contest we had here. It was one of the best Sqr 8 I have ever flown.

Another tip. DO NOT let up in the corner anymore. I repeat DO NOT Let up on the corner. You are an advanced pilot you know what you are doing. Snap that puppy out hard. If you are too high then dont be next time. Work on a consistant corner that you can fly all of the time. Then start getting the plane down to 5'. Having consistant corners all the way around pattern gets you points. Soft RWO pullouts is the fastest way to the middle of the pack. Judges know when you are "searching" for 5' they ding you for it too. Hard and flat at 7' is better than soft at 5'. The soft corner starts so much higher it really counts off in front of tough judges. Same goes for the Sqr 8. The corner needs to be the same. Then talking yourself through the maneuver will help you place the corner where it needs to be.

Once you really figure out "talking" during your pattern you will have many little crutch phrases that help you. For me when I am getting ready for inside sqrs I say "Straight up Straight down" I might say it 10 times before I get to the maneuver. This keeps me keyed on the legs that give me trouble. Same goes with outside sqr "Straight up" I always want lean in the up leg for some reason.

Another tip. Like you am lucky to get 10 flights a month. Well 10 RWOs a month will insure that they will NOT get better. Try this. Put enough fuel for a few extras. Once you make your first inverted pullout fly around and back over the top and inverted again and again and then pullout upright. Two laps and do it again the same way. Now you have practiced that pullout 6 times in just one extra minute of fuel. Then do just one complete one and fly your pattern from there. Do that and you will have done 70 in a month. I garuntee you one thing. You will either get them better or you will really nail down your mistakes.

Hope this helps.

Doug,
Very "cognitive" approach Doug, also a very effective approach..Being able to utilize "self-talk" "Self-support/encouragement" while flying in competition will only lead to improved awareness and improved outcomes..Acknolwedging your inner awareness, expressing your mental preparation, will keep you focused and alert..Many professional atheletes yell,talk, support themselves in comeptition...It is also an excellent way of managing your anxiety level...Tennis players grunt, yell, etc---It is a constructive way to manage the stress involved in competition.....Using self-encouragment-self-talk--is one excellent way to improving your competitive edge/goals..Maybe that whole notion of self-fulfilling prophecy is at work here--"If I say I will hit that 5 ft bottom, then I will".!Some of things I have told myself in the circle, well I'll leave up to the imagination...Thanks DAvid

Another thing I have noticed with the Self Talk method is you can create a rythm. You know going in you will pull out high on the RWO. By placing some words at the right moment in time you will be coaching and talking your way out of your normal habit and into a new one. The properly placed word will lead you away from your normal mistakes. You are so focused on it you cant help but begin to change the way you fly. This goes for anything you are trying to do.

Hi Bill, I'm no expert but I can give you of some my personal experience as an advanced class flyer trying to make it into the expert ranks.

I've found that I make much better and consistent pullouts with my old, beat up planes than I do with my shiny, new ones. So, in my case at least, there's a psychological hurdle I've got to clear and Dave hit this right on the money in his post. I'm hopelessly competitive and this next statement will prove this, but you/I have to start thinking of our planes as tools for laying waste to the competition (in a nice way of course), and stop thinking of them as "my shiny new baby". I am very guilty of referencing my plane as totem rather than tool.

Once I got to that point I could then allow myself to miss my target five-foot pullout from either side. In other words a three foot pullout was viewed as no more nerve wracking, harrowing, or exciting than a seven foot pullout, It was just "a two foot miss". It's not often I can get into this "zone" but when I do it feels great because now you can "zero-in" on 5' rather than "work your way down to that scary 5'". Now you're/I'm honing a skill and not just trying to bring a plane home in one piece.

The only possible technical advice I might have is to get your engine/prop combination tweaked so that it won't accelerate the plane too much coming down from the very top. My new "Magnum" suffers from this. It's over weight at 64 oz., relatively thin wing, large diameter high-pitched prop, and 4-2 break. It's a freight-train waiting to runaway. Coming down out of a wingover it speeds up (because it's heavy and slippery), the prop finds it's "sweet spot" and the efficiency goes way up, and things get ugly real fast. This is not a powerplant endorsement, I've seen seen all types adjusted so that they could brake coming downhill.

Thanks guys,
All suggestions are appreciated.

Doug, the "out loud" talking will get the try, too. I talk to myself like everyone else does (I guess) but "in my head".

I can get the corner sharp, but it varies in height way too much.
I know exactly when I hit it at 8' that it is wrong, but it's already happened! hahahaha

Prevailing advice around here is to fly all the RWO corners a litle soft. That doesn't help me right now. I can fly a "soft" corner at 8' real easy! hahahahaha

I do need to get practice somehow. Before we took our 5 year hiatus, I was doing this part pretty good, but it has escaped me now. Couldn't be getting older...........

Bill <><

Could this be a "simple" handle adjustment issue? I have found that if I don't have my handle adjusted right, I can't fly low enough. This may be upright or inverted. The other direction will either seem ok or it will feel like it wants to groove too low. Steve

I can tell you this from just judging Advanced at Hunterville that no one gave us 4-6 ft pullouts on the reverse wingover. Eight foot was the norn. Allmost every one flew there bottoms high for the entire pattern. People were not starting from true level flight. Also most people are flying the second turn over there left shoulder. It's hard to put into words how to improve the turn without seeing just what you are doing. Aaron and I are going to get together soon and you should join us.
Ed

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-04 AT 02:39 AM (CDT)
 
I know that I made one change that made them somewhat easier. As I come around to the spot where I plan to start the maneuver, I plant my right foot right at that spot and set my left foot at the exit. I start the maneuver and go straight over my head keeping the plane in alignment with my body. As the plane comes down for the inverted pullout, I twist at the waist so I'm more or less facing the pullout and, as others have noted, I start the turn when my arm is about 10-15 degrees from parallel with the ground. I try to fly the plane through this turn instead of just trying to "snap" it (if that makes any sense).

One note is I don't move my feet at all during the maneuver until just before the upright recovery. While my pullouts aren't always great (as Steve "Da Judge" will attest), I usually go straight over my head in the same spot pretty much all the time.

The more comfortable you get with a plane and how it flies, the easier (at least for me) this maneuver gets.

A guy from work stopped by this summer to watch me practice. "That first maneuver you do," he said, "Does anybody ever go straight over the top?"

well i have never seen anyone who didnt bobble a reverse wing over ... most airplanes dont perform th same inverted ... they swing th tail around on outside manuvers ... so its not all your fault ... it takes practice learning to under control just enough to make it come out straight ... n not hit th ground ... part of th problem could be ur airplane ... that old gull wing stuka had a real bad tail swing ... probably becuase th elevator was so far above th centerline ... the closer u can get to having everything on th same centerline th easier it will be to correct this... that and practice ... jim

>A guy from work stopped by this summer to watch me practice.
> "That first maneuver you do," he said, "Does anybody ever
>go straight over the top?"

Howard practised this summer? Stunt? Just in case PW's out of town or somethin'....Steve

>I know that I made one change that made them somewhat
>easier. As I come around to the spot where I plan to start
>the maneuver, I plant my right foot right at that spot and
>set my left foot at the exit. I start the maneuver and go
>straight over my head keeping the plane in alignment with my
>body. As the plane comes down for the inverted pullout, I
>twist at the waist so I'm more or less facing the pullout

>One note is I don't move my feet at all during the maneuver
>until just before the upright recovery. While my pullouts
>aren't always great (as Steve "Da Judge" will attest), I
>usually go straight over my head in the same spot pretty
>much all the time.

I do recall Randy's WO going straight over the top. When I fly (next year!), I do the same thing (plant both feet, fly the WO's shoulder to shoulder). Unless I decide not to keep my feet planted, in which case I do 1.5 laps inverted. Randy and Dirt was Da'Judges, and about fell down laughing! Can't say if my WO goes straight over or not, but at least I like to think so. I'm having a hard time bending my neck and back enough to do this overhead stuff. Steve

http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

>I can tell you this from just judging Advanced at
>Hunterville that no one gave us 4-6 ft pullouts on the
>reverse wingover. Eight foot was the norn. Allmost every one
>flew there bottoms high for the entire pattern.

That's why I want to get them at the right place! hahahahaha

>People were not starting from true level flight. Also most people >are flying the second turn over there left shoulder. It's hard
>to put into words how to improve the turn without seeing
>just what you are doing. Aaron and I are going to get
>together soon and you should join us.
>Ed

Ed, If Aaron is there I will be, too. All his stuff is at my house. Where and when?
Bill <><

Bill I didn't notice my name in the lead in title untill just know, Sunday evening. Did you get my email on your Road Runner emai; account about a ST-51 RC carb?
Ed

>Bill I didn't notice my name in the lead in title untill
>just know, Sunday evening. Did you get my email on your Road
>Runner emai; account about a ST-51 RC carb?
>Ed

Hi Ed,
I edited the lead today after your reply.
I have to look around here, I do not believe I have a carb. I've had three ST-51, but I know two of them were bought as C/L engines. There *might* be a carb in my stash, but I need to look further.
Any idea on the get together?
Bill <><