Setting Expectations

I am not sure this is a fair question, given all the different parameters, but if an new pilot spends 5 hours a week trying to learn the stunt pattern (starting out from simple to more complex), how long will it take to learn each pattern? Is it reasonable to expect to learn the complete pattern (or do many pilots get snagged along the way and never learn it), and how often should I expect that I will crash?

Jim:
Five hours per week should put you onto a path that will see you flying the whole pattern pretty quickly.
Two things that will be most beneficial, I believe are a good, straight airplane and a reliable motor run.
Then I would go and meet Allen Goff...he is a real nice guy and can offer a TON of help.
Join PAMPA
Have fun!

See Ya

Are you talking about spending 5 hours at the field and putting in 3-4 flights or are you talking about putting in 25 flights with a seasoned flyer to help you. Five hours is a long time to put flight after flight.Tell us what you are going to do. Are you flying a Ringmaster or ar you flying a flapped stunt plane?. Give us some more information about your set up.
Ed

My son went from not being able to fly at all to being able to fly a complete, recognizable (if not brilliant) pattern in 20 flights; this over 3 consecutive weekends. I suspect this is not the usual course. Guess Nintendo was good for something after all. After he learned, he quit and hasn't flown since. Took me about a year to fly a decent pattern (after coming back to flying) and the learning was accompanied by many, many sacks of balsa and at least 3 DOA engines. Never learn to fly the pattern on pavement.

I would take issue with Randy.....I think that you should learn to fly over pavement as well as grass....especially if you want to compete later.

See Ya

Peabody,
I just said you shouldn't learn the pattern over pavement...unless you like buying engines. Once the pattern is more or less down and you're not crashing regularly, then pavement is fine.

Hi Jim,
Well you're right, it isn't a "fair" question.
Too much depends on too much! hahahaha
The Beginner pattern can be learned very quickly under most circumstances. Inverted flight takes some getting used to. Usually leads to some crashes.
The complete pattern developes from adding to it. Plus a couple of higher difficulty manuevers.
How often will you crash? No one can tell
Bill <><

Yes I have met Allen Goff at the Muncie Controliners. I have attended a couple of their meetings. All of the folks there are very helpful. We meet once a month so I plan on getting advice/help then and then spend the remainder of the month working on improving my skills. I suspect I can fly once or twice during the week for an hour or so, and then spend 2 or 3 hours on the weekend practicing as well.

I just recently joined the AMA. As soon as I can sneak money under the wife radar I will join PAMPA.

I don't have a plane yet. I have a friend's plane that I need to return now that the weather is changing in Indiana (and before I mess it up). I am assuming I should start with a non-flapped plane that is stable/forgiving. Suggestions desired. I feel guilty/cheating if I get an ARF - but I also don't want to spend (40? hours) or so building a plane just to see it get splatered. I also have a son that is learning at the same time.

jim

I think that learning to fly the pattern competently is not dissimilar to learning any skill requiring control over the hands. I have put a lot of effort over the years in learning to play musical instruments (sadly started too late) and I have found that the important thing is to organise your practice time sensibly. Have a plan, have a mentor, work in a consistant way. Make each flight move you in the right direction. Start simple and perfect the simple things before moving on. Keep good records of what you have done, what model, what engine, how did you feel, what was wrong and what was right. Fly often but not for too long - I think that your 5 hours would be best divided up into a daily, well planned, 1 hour session. Make a list of the tasks to be perfected and be honest in your note taking. Know what you are aiming to achieve each flight. If you get stuck unable to achieve something, seek expert help or, if that isn't possible, put that problem on the backburner and work on something else. You will probably find that the problem area sorts itself out. Never confuse flying for fun with practice they are not the same thing. Don't practice when you are tired or distracted. Little and often works better than occasional long sessions (such as 5 hours one day then a week before the next 5 hour session.
Understand that learning isn't a linear process, you will make a leap forward and then seem to slide back then suddenly realise that you are doing things that you previously couldn't. I spent several years doing 10mins every day trying to improve my tremolo on the mandolin and got very disheartened when I couldn't get beyond a particular metronome setting but then several months later found that I was easily able to exceed that setting despite not practicing the tremolo in the interim.

Not sure if this helps but it is the product of my experience in learning and teaching various musical instruments nad I don't think that there is much difference

Regards

Mike

Do like Mike said. Don't feel guilty about using an ARF to learn flying the pattern. A Brodak Oriental, or the Flite Streak or Nobler will be great to learn on. Just be sure to assemble them right, follow the instructions and look on here for past strings on them. As you are learning each maneuver, you can be building a kit plane for later. It never hurts to take two or three with you, as you will have crashes, accept this and don't worry about it. Even the legendary George Aldrich admitted he crashed 38 and quit counting before he learned the pattern and his was crazier than the one we do. If at all possible, get a mentor/pit man. They can watch your maneuvers, make suggestions, launch and recover the plane. Relax at least 20 minutes between flights, by wiping off the plane, discuss what you did or didn't do and why. And what ever you do, once you commit to a maneiver, DO NOT change your mind. Follow through. Every single time you start a maneuver and then change your mind, you will crash. I have done it, I see others do it, it happens. I saw it happen Sunday. Time and speed are against indecision, so commit and follow through. Never give up. tight lines.

Here are a few comments--for what they are worth.

Some people will learn the pattern almost effortlessly, while others will never learn it. So there is a factor here (I won't mention where I fall on that curve )

Regarding crashes, there is an element of luck here. I wish all my crashes were due to mistakes in learning the pattern! Unfortunately, quite a few, if not most were due to other circumstances-primarily problems with engine runs (fuel, tanks, plugs, mixtures......). This really isn't luck I guess, but preparation. It doesn't hurt to get started with as simple a system as possible.

Also think about durability. A plane which bounces may fly again the same day, while one that doesn't may take a week (or more--depending on how discouraged you get) to get back in the air. Personally I favor the 10-15 sized "junior" profile planes, simply because they seem to bounce better to me! For learning inverted flight, a simple Sig 1/2A SkyRay flown over tall grass has a good bounce factor. 1/2 A's aren't particularly easy to fly--they are so darn fast, but the "junior" sized planes are a reasonable compromise.

If you were to pick a single plane, I guess I'd recommend a UKEY 35 with an LA25 running a 9-4 or 10-3 prop. They don't bounce as well as the "Junior", but they are pretty durable. If the UKEY 15 still existed, I would probably vote for it.

If you spend the 5 hours in 1 hr blocks doing nothing but flying you should learn within 1 flying season. You should be able to put in 4 to 6 flights an hour and possibly more depending on engine run time. When first learning a short 3 or 4 minute flight will be adequate later something around 7 minutes will be needed. After one hour you will probably be tired if you are concentrating hard, if you aren't you probably need to concentrate more.

If you are serious about learning and are flying alone get a camera and record your flights, you'll see a lot of mistakes, record some flights 90deg to the wind so you can see things such as vertical intersections and if the overheads are overhead. Even with a coach the camera will be a big help as you can see what he is telling you is wrong.

I'd say about 100 flights, if you approach is systematically as Mike recommends. Don't know where you're at in the learning process, but start with climbs and dives. Then try a wingover, gradually making it steeper. Work up into an inside loop. Try starting outsides initially from the wingover, briefly giving down as the plane comes over the top and then recovering. Work you way into it until you get enough courage to give down and do the loop. The work into a lazy eight- partial inside followed by a partial outside(you're always turning away from the ground which is handy). start learning inverted by stretching the lazy eights out. Once you can do inside loops, outside loops and complete a couple laps of inverted you're on you way.

Combat planes, from half A to 35 size are great for learning. Much less likely to break, esp. if you fly over grass.

If you don't discipline yourself while learning, fly over pavement, and don't build combat style planes it can take years. I've seen plenty of people who take each flight as if they are just starting out again. They are still working on just doing multiple loops and lazy eights.

It is great when you have time to fly. I have a couple of tips for you.
1 First fly with someone more experienced.
2 Do not rush.
3 Most Beginners flyers are scared to death to fly inverted thus you can notice their pattern they have nice inside maneuvers but when it comes to fly inverted it all go south. This is because they do way to much normal flight. As soon as you feel comfortable taking off landing and do some loops it is time to go inverted. Dedicate time to this till you are equally comfortable with both then you will develop a more balanced flight.
4 this is IMPORTANT you can not learn and better yourself on a shady plane, don’t waste your time any more than you need on a poorly flying plane. If you are done learning MOST maneuvers, build a full body plane preferably 45-60 size plane (SV-?? Or 60 Cardinal) and strap a good CONSISTENT motor (50-60). This is when you will learn the most when you do not have to worry about engine run or plane performance

my opinion...flying inverted ... onced ur over that start practicing th pattern .... th rest is just practice ..about a year u should be competitive ... jim