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hyper viper setup

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 26 of 26 known posts recovered

scooterjay · Nov 09, 2004 06:04 PM

#0 source
in a moment of insanity i purchased the 1/2a hyper viper to assist my desire to "relearn" inverted flight as opposed to busting up my nobler arf, and to tide me over 'til i get my skyray 35 finished (good god, the skyray looks like a tank!). now i have read all the hints about getting more performance out of the restricted .049 and have done thus, what i need to know now is what test strength of spiderwire to use. i know they are sensitive to line size and i don't want to fuss with ordering some lines that i'll use for a short while (the hv is going into the attic after the skyray is ready). also, which prop(s) are best for it? been a long time since i messed with .049 stuff. i have no local hobby shop in which to plunder, all supplies are ordered online. i sure do miss the days of the hobby shop. count yourselves lucky if you have one in your town!

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

LeagueCityRalph · Nov 09, 2004 06:44 PM

#1 source
>in a moment of insanity i purchased the 1/2a hyper viper to
>assist my desire to "relearn" inverted flight as opposed to
>busting up my nobler arf, and to tide me over 'til i get my
>skyray 35 finished (good god, the skyray looks like a
>tank!). now i have read all the hints about getting more
>performance out of the restricted .049 and have done thus,
>what i need to know now is what test strength of spiderwire
>to use. i know they are sensitive to line size and i don't
>want to fuss with ordering some lines that i'll use for a
>short while (the hv is going into the attic after the skyray
>is ready). also, which prop(s) are best for it? been a long
>time since i messed with .049 stuff. i have no local hobby
>shop in which to plunder, all supplies are ordered online. i
>sure do miss the days of the hobby shop. count yourselves
>lucky if you have one in your town!

Ray Stone (MinnesotaModeller) recommends 12# Spiderwire, even for NorVel .061-powered stuff, which is WAY more powerful than the HV. For just re-learning simple maneuvers, you probably don't need to make any other changes; just don't expect strong vertical performance. I always got best performance on Cox reed-valve engines with the old, black 5-3. You probably need 20% nitro fuel. Enjoy.

Ralph Wenzel

grzly23 · Nov 09, 2004 06:46 PM

#2 source
HYPER VIPER IMPROVEMENTS

Generally, it is a beautiful and well designed model. It has the potential to be competitive at least at PAMPA beginner level with a few modifications.
As provided, the following problems showed up:
1. The engine goes rich in the air. Cure - shave the angle on the filler and vent tubes down from 45deg to 15 deg and reduce the pressure build-up.
2. The lines, of course have to go. Dacron is fine for very casual sport flying, but not if you want to get serious. Mikey Pratt recommends 42' of .008 cables, and if you punch up the power, I am finding that he is right on the money. If you don't modify the engine, you probably better not look at over 35' of .008. Don't even dream of trying to fly with .012 lines, unless you just want to climb, dive, and fly level. I also found that I needed extra tip weight (everyone seems to be finding the same), and it has now been added.
3. Power. I did manage to squeak in some large loops and lazy eights, but it was a near thing with the stock engine on 39' .008 lines and the RSM/Renger handle. Again following Mikey's recommendation, I pulled the engine and removed the screen from the venturi. Lo and behold, the venturi is molded with a serious restrictor. When the heck did that happen, and why??? I do like the cylinder porting, it is better than the old Black Widow's.
The original engine is sitting on the bench until I have time to mess with it. The model now features an original Killer Bee, Norvel Freedom plug (6!! gaskets) and APC 5.7x3 prop (Again Mikey recommended). At present, I have only flown on 39 foot lines, and definitely want the extra length recommended. However, using Aerodyne 350+P fuel, running somewhere around 20K, I was able to do all the maneuvers in the pattern. Somewhat oversize, but with potential for further improvement. Definitely a KB or TEE DEE cylinder and piston will help, but not much until you do the venturi. Then you will have a beast on your hands. The Killer Bee isn't going to run right with the original HV engine back plate, the venturi is too restrictive. The Killer Bee back plate without the added pipe works just fine, or you could add the pipe to the KB back plate, and that will work too. Sadly, C*x castrated all their performance engines some years ago. ONLY Killer Bees with yellow anodized crankcases and the plastic extension needle valves run the way it was designed to run. Sorry, but that's just how it is. The original engine in the Hyper Viper is the basic ready-to-fly one. I think it is completely stock.
4. With the extra speed and vibration, the canopy blew off. Goop adhesive to the rescue (Totally fuel proof, and clear)
Further stuff left to do - Go to the longer lines, play with handle spacing, cover the open rear of the fuselage with clear tape, or something ( Maybe CA some TYVEK to the fuselage and one thin coat of epoxy for a permanent fix?), Then experiment with more props.
One negative that we aren’t a going to cure, the model has a high wing loading. You absolutely need to keep the speed up, and that especially includes landings. But what the heck do you want for 1 hour's work and under $50?? Extreme power and long lines, definitely the way to go.
Recommendation - get at least one (or two, and learn monoline flying)
Larry Renger
Be sure and check the fuel tank before installing it. Like Rob on SSW, my tank was totally clogged from the inside. I called the guy at Estes and he is sending me a new tank. To check it, see if you can blow through the tank when you close off the fill/vent tube. Nothing goes through the outlet to the motor on my tank. Also, I had to cut some excess plastic from the fuselage around the elevator linkage to allow the elevator to move without clicking/sticking.

Nick Vanmatre

I measured the venturi size on the Killer Bee. The original, that is. The diameter at the spraybar is .185 inches. I would probably go for 11/64" for stunt, as the engine was originally intended for Nostalgia FF use. Mine seems to draw fuel OK in the Hyper Viper, but I only had time for one flight on it. Again, a "real" Killer Bee has an anodized crankcase, and the needle valve has a yellow piece of extruded plastic tube for an extension. If you have a recent, un-anodized crankcase, you just have an RTF engine with a noble name. No taper on the piston and cylinder, no sub-piston induction and the cheesy, stock crankshaft. (Actually, they are perfectly good sport engines, but not comparable to the original KB)
If you want a true "Killer" get the Davis crankshaft and an old Tee Dee piston and cylinder set. The un-anodized crankcase will do OK but you better be sure to use lots of oil in the fuel. Drill the venturi as above, and use a high-compression head with 3 gaskets or a Norvel with 4 or 5 gaskets, or, finally, the Galbreath/Nelson head and again 4 to 6 gaskets depending on the nitro content of your fuel.
I just use the back of a 3/16" drill gripped in a vice-grip pliers to press the spraybar out, then back in by hand. No hammer necessary. Of course, remove that little black seal first. I just reassembled my HV original engine after doing the drill thing. I put the exit hole of the needle about 15 degrees downstream of straight across. If straight down the pipe was 12:00, this would be at about 2:00 or 10:00) A study I read of in one of the magazines showed that this is the "sweet spot" for maximum fuel draw. The final touch was to use a chamfer tool, then an Xacto knife to bevel and smooth the entry down to the spraybar.

Larry Renger

Tom McClain

50plusAirYears · Nov 09, 2004 06:47 PM

#3 source
I've learned to stay away from the Dacron thread lines that are usually sold for 1/A use. To much drag and too stretchy. I use 35' stranded .008" for the lower powered sport type 049s and 42' .008 for the higher powered 049s to 074s.

Minnesotamodeler · Nov 09, 2004 08:38 PM

#4 source
I actually bought 14# spiderwire the last time, just because it was available. I've used 12# for years, with Norvel .061's, 42', 70+ mph, never had a problem. I know you guys are just shuddering at the thought...When I start breaking lines, I'll start considering something different. Don't think it's gonna happen. Goes against conventional wisdom--so what? (Flame away)
--Ray

Minnesotamodeler · Nov 09, 2004 08:49 PM

#5 source
P.S. if you really want a good stunt trainer (re-trainer?) you oughtta look at my "BarnDoor" kit. A bargain at $25; flies really well; no "underpowered" (read: "overweight") issues--comes in at about 6 oz. ready to fly. Not as pretty, I guess...depends on your priorities.
--Ray
http://www.freewebs.com/minnesotamodeler
or
http://snipurl.com/9igp
minnesotamodeler
[photo not recovered: newbarn2.jpg]

Harleyman · Nov 09, 2004 09:03 PM

#6 source
I don’t have a HyperViper but my son and I fly his Baby Flite Streak with a TeeDee .051 on 42 feet of Yellow 8 pound Berkley FireLine (3 pound Diameter). It works great, very little drag on the small diameter (.004 I’d guess) and never had a break.

Chris

LeagueCityRalph · Nov 09, 2004 09:04 PM

#7 source
1) There are several responses to your question which include reference to "dacron lines". Spiderwire is NOT dacron, and has as little stretch as .008 cable lines.

2) Google - - Columbia, SC "hobby shop" - There are a bunch of listings, although few, if any, have websites. Doug's and a couple of others should be checked out.

Join PAMPA - There are many "cottage industries" which make anything you might need; and a bunch of stuff you never realized you needed!

Ralph Wenzel

scooterjay · Nov 09, 2004 09:22 PM

#8 source

>
>2) Google - - Columbia, SC "hobby shop" - There are a bunch
>of listings, although few, if any, have websites. Doug's and
>a couple of others should be checked out.
>
>Join PAMPA - There are many "cottage industries" which make
>anything you might need; and a bunch of stuff you never
>realized you needed!


unfortunately, dougs is geared to the r/c car enthusaist. i'v already darkened his door, got blank stares from him when i mentioned u/c. he then brightened up, and pointed me towards a pt-19 he has on a shelf. i kindly thanked him, bought some #11 blades (the de riguer purchase at hobby shops for myself) and vamoosed. nice guy, though.

i agree, PAMPA is the org. to join. haven't done so yet.......

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

50plusAirYears · Nov 09, 2004 09:32 PM

#9 source
I guess I should feel lucky because three of the local hs in my area are carrying more CL stuff about every 2 months.

Old Sourdough · Nov 10, 2004 12:29 AM

#10 source
Scott,

You have been given some good suggestions by folks who are much better flyers than I am. I am not going to contradict what they have told you. But I will add the extent of my personal experience with and observations of the two additional Hyper Vipers I've seen fly in my area, and you can decide which path to follow. They are fun to fly planes that now cost $43.00± at our local hobby shop. As you know they are complete with everything necessary for flight except the fuel and batteries.

Since you state that the only reason that you succumbed to that moment of insanity was to get you in the air to relearn inverted flight, I would advise you to do only a few things to get ready to fly.

1. Before assembly, test the tank in the manner that Nick suggested. Get a replacement, if necessary, directly from Cox.

2. Two of the three HV's flown here required a new tank for the very problem he describes. Assemble the plane exactly as described in the instructions, including (heresy!) using the supplied Dacron lines and handle.

3. Push a nickel into the "tip weight box" (the hole on the bottom of the outboard wing) for the extra tip weight recommended.

4. Use adhesive or clear tape to fasten the front of the canopy to keep it on the plane during flight.

5. Start and break in the engine exactly as shown in the instructions.

6. Go fly, preferably over grass until you feel comfortable with your progress with inverted flight.

While all the other suggestions have merit and will undoubtedly increase performance, the extra effort is not necessary to obtain a plane that will capably fly reverse wing overs, inside loops, lazy eights, inverted flight, and outside loops when built stock except for the items I’ve previously mentioned.

All three of the local planes were purchased at the same time and from the same source, along with three sets of SIG .008" × 35' lines. We got a wild hair to fly the planes one afternoon before the lines were made up. rjbob, one of the other flyers, had a set of .008" lines in his box, so he used those, but the two of us remaining, CR and I, were without, so we used the full length of the Dacron included with the plane, as well as the Cox handle. We broke in our engines at the field that day.

After three recommended break in runs, CR was first up and his plane flew well, doing the maneuvers I’ve described effortlessly, even though the engine was a touch rich. Upon landing, he restarted the engine peaked it out and flew again. This flight was great, as was his third, which immediately followed the second.

rjbob was next, and he had his needle set properly, but his plane appeared much faster than CR’s had been. After a few very fast, tight maneuvers, he flew the remainder of the flight pretty much level, getting dizzier and stumbling around the circle more and more as he flew. The engine finally quit and, to his relief, he landed. It was then that we discovered that those .008" lines of his were only 27’ long instead of the 35’ he thought they were. That extra 7' of line that CR used certainly made a big difference.

At that point, rjbob had to get back to his office, CR had some errands to run and I needed to be somewhere else, too, so we packed it in. The maiden flight of my own Hyper Viper was a few days later, but my experience was identical to CR’s. I, too, used the Dacron lines even though the .008" × 35’ lines were made up by then. We will probably switch to the .008" × 35’ lines for next summer’s flying (I know that rjbob will!) but will probably not make any of the other changes recommended by others unless we decide that we need to get to the Nth degree of performance out of our engines.

I should also mention that all the flights flown so far have been with less than ideal fuel (15% Nitro, 22% lube). Cox, as you’re aware, recommends a minimum of 25% nitro and a maximum of 18% castor fuel. We now have the Byron’s 1/2A fuel, which has that composition, but have not used it yet. This alone should improve performance quite a bit, even though we haven’t yet suffered from lack of performance.

For the price, I don’t think that one can’t beat the Hyper Viper, even stock, for its good, fun flying characteristics. In light of my experience, I would not hesitate to advise you to fly it stock at first and decide for yourself whether the extra mods are necessary for your flying style.

The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A

scooterjay · Nov 10, 2004 05:52 PM

#11 source
hey sourdough (and everyone else) thanks for the info. the plan is to use the hv to reacclimate myself to inverted flight. upside down is upside down, regardless. i'll be utilizing my old psych-out chant of "down-down-down" whilst flying clockwise. my skyray has the wing framed, needs a quick covering job (silkspan gm, all i had from the attic) and the fuse needs finishing so i probably will use the hv only a week or so. incidentally, the last c/l plane i flew was the cox super chipmunk back in 1990. all i ever got it to do was a high speed taxi. i had broken the engine in with three or four tankfuls and took it out for the maiden flight. started up, released it from the stooge and made a few level laps and the engine sagged. flew with it barely off the ground, whipping at times to keep it up. finally gave up whipping and the durn thing made a high speed taxi run til a pebble flipped it up and stopped the prop. took it home and took the glo-head off and marveled at the hole in the piston above the ball-socket. ah, good times!

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

greatcircle · Nov 11, 2004 12:26 AM

#12 source
REALLY dumb question: Does the Hyper Viper come with that cheap little engine wrench you need to remove the glow plug and other things, or do you have to order it separately, like with the Norvels?

Carl

Old Sourdough · Nov 11, 2004 03:22 AM

#13 source
Mine came with two engine wrenches.

The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A

dennis · Nov 11, 2004 03:16 PM

#14 source
.
I bought 2 of them and retrofitted a pre Revlite Norvel 061 with a Texas Timer mount to the first one and that is a hoot to fly. Kept the same inboard set up and it fit without any major cutting.
I want to get a VA 049 onto the next one but have not found the time or inclination to do so.
Only problems are of course the open bottom of the fuselage and the cheesy graphics which are really almost gone from mine. I'll put my own on the new one.
Dennis

scooterjay · Nov 12, 2004 03:15 PM

#15 source
put the little hv together last night while watching "saving private ryan". first of all, a big THANK YOU to all our veterans on the board. my father is a Korean vet, and my father in law is a veteran of WWII, he was in on the taking of guadalcanal and pelilieu. once again, thank you for allowing me the freedom that i love.
back to the HV, slipped it together, made the reccommended mods to the stock motor (somewhere around here i have a couple of Kustom Kraftmanship reed valve .049s...may go in the HV if i like it) and built me a 1/2a stooge at work during my lunch hour. Of course, it's pouring rain today and i have to travel out of town tommorrow. looking forward to sunday afternoon now!

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

CR · Nov 12, 2004 07:51 PM

#16 source
I would like to add a couple of things to what the Old Sourdough mentioned, I have 2 Hyper Vipers, the one I keep in Alaska that I flew with the OSD and that one does everything you could ask it to do and thats at sea level. My other one I have here in Reno at 4500 feet same as the other one and it's a real toad. So altitude is a factor. I recommend them highly right out of the box at sea level.

CR

gcb · Nov 13, 2004 01:01 AM

#17 source
A general statement/question, not directed to anyone in particular: If you are going to rework the engine for more power or install another engine altogether, why wouldn't you build a better plane to put it on?
I do not have a Hyper Viper (yet), but I do have some Sure Start engines and they seem to run well as is. IMHO extensive modifications defeats it's intended purpose...RTF.

George

Old Sourdough · Nov 13, 2004 03:41 AM

#18 source
A big AMEN! from the back pew in the far Northwest.

The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A

50plusAirYears · Nov 13, 2004 08:58 PM

#19 source
Glad I read this thread before I tried flying the one I just bought. Both the filler and the overflow tubes on my tank are bottomed out. The filler is sealed against the tank bottom and looks like it is spin welded. It's totally sealed. The overflow is tight against the top, but some air can be forced through.

scooterjay · Nov 13, 2004 10:39 PM

#20 source
hey minnesotamodeler......i built an ace whizard once and used the same fuel tank setup that is on yer half-a c/l (35mm film canister). it ran so long that i had to flat spin it down 'cause my neck got sore from looking up!

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

Minnesotamodeler · Nov 14, 2004 07:40 AM

#21 source
>hey minnesotamodeler......i built an ace whizard once and
>used the same fuel tank setup that is on yer half-a c/l
>(35mm film canister). it ran so long that i had to flat spin
>it down 'cause my neck got sore from looking up!

Well, you don't have to fill it full, you know...measure the amount you put in, maybe 1/2 oz. I'm currently using a latex balloon insert.
--Ray

scooterjay · Nov 22, 2004 03:36 PM

#22 source
i never intended on catching thermals!

broke in the .049 under the watchful eye of some random ten year old who wandered up as i was fussing the fuel line onto the overflow. "cool" he remarked as the .049 suddenly barked and ran backwards as i had tried propping it instead of winding the aggrivating spring thing. he backed up a step or two as i leaned the needle and the rpms grew, finally coming to rest somewhere about ten yards off my aft. i ran it from a wet four cycle to a just breaking into two cycle back and forth as i had so many times in the past for an entire tankful, holding it with the outboard wing down. right towards the end, it screamed up to about 20k and died, out of fuel. Michael, as he was now identified thanks to the school id tag hanging around his neck, approached with the barrage of questions which i happily answered. he knew all about the troop gliders in ww2 and how "they were too heavy for their wings and landed downwind, which caused them to crash." smart kid, been watching discovery wings or perhaps the history channel. i moved the hv over to the stooge, fueled up and got it going again. tweaked the needle a bit leaner than a wet 4 cycle and picked up the handle, and pulled the stooge line. off she went, sorta lumbering along at first, then getting light and skipping off. i climbed to eye level and it leaned out a little, lap or so, and went rich again. i flew out the tank in a ragged, barely hanging on rich condition. next tankful was leaned out on the ground to what i "thought" would be acceptable. pulled the stooge line again, she slowly picked up speed and stayed at the end ov the lines, and lifted off in a beautiful takeoff, the tail in the air type. flew two laps and the engine went rich again. flew out that tankful same as before and had to quit. out of time again! cut the vents down to fifteen degrees as suggested, but still can't figure out going rich in the air. air leak?

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

50plusAirYears · Nov 22, 2004 03:46 PM

#23 source
Just got my replacement tank today. The vent lines are not spin welded to the tank top and bottom now like the original tank. If the temperature stays above 25, I might give it a try this weekend.

scooterjay · Nov 29, 2004 06:44 PM

#24 source
took the hv out again today after work. fired up, tweaked the needle a couple of times, picked up the handle and pulled the stooge line. off she went, probably turning 16k or so. felt good, made a couple of laps and pulled into a wingover. big corner, vertical up and over my head, sloppy exit at about 20' up.....try again. tried someone's hint about using your body as a reference and freaked out. 1/2a flies too fast for that! tried again...ok, here we go. bang, decent corner, vert. up...good line tension (the nickel in the tip weight box helped), over my head and then headed down vertical. wait,wait, now pull. decent exit. nice...starting to loosen up. deep breath.....pull up into a half loop, chanted "down, down, down" and caught up with it after about four PIO cycles. made an entire lap....half outside to level at 45 degrees, whew!. big old grin on my face! a few more huge loops (almost wingovers) and made a very lopsided horiz. eight. grinning harder, i went for inverted try #2. ok, here we go.....half loop to inverted, uh oh, a little past level inverted...no problem, feed in some down...here comes the ground, a little more down...can that, a LOT more down! smacks edge of baseball infield at a shallow angle, ripping the vert. stab off, along with the horiz. stab and elevator. fuse broke cleanly under stab, right where the screw holds the tail feathers together. i know how to repair balsa, but i guess i'll have to learn how to repair styrene plastic now! skyray is finished, pulled the motor out of the nobler arf yesterday while watching the panthers win and will be trading the hv for the skyray this weekend. mods to the hv....new prop, retape open fuse behind wing, another nickel in the tip box, and 42' of spiderwire (8lb. test) after i cement the fuse back together. may make a lite ply crutch for this stressful area if i can get it light enough. motor still needs some break in time, now have had 5 tanks run through it.

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal

scooterjay · Nov 30, 2004 09:56 PM

#25 source
FYI- Tenax 7R is a very good cement. they advertise it as a space age plastic welder. some sort of chlorinated solvent that dissolves the plastic and evaporates fairly quickly. found it at my LHS over in the plastic model kit quadrant of the store. its the satellite city of styrene cement!

"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal