scooterjay · Nov 09, 2004 06:04 PM
#0 source"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 26 of 26 known posts recovered
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
Ray Stone (MinnesotaModeller) recommends 12# Spiderwire, even for NorVel .061-powered stuff, which is WAY more powerful than the HV. For just re-learning simple maneuvers, you probably don't need to make any other changes; just don't expect strong vertical performance. I always got best performance on Cox reed-valve engines with the old, black 5-3. You probably need 20% nitro fuel. Enjoy.
Ralph Wenzel
Generally, it is a beautiful and well designed model. It has the potential to be competitive at least at PAMPA beginner level with a few modifications.
As provided, the following problems showed up:
1. The engine goes rich in the air. Cure - shave the angle on the filler and vent tubes down from 45deg to 15 deg and reduce the pressure build-up.
2. The lines, of course have to go. Dacron is fine for very casual sport flying, but not if you want to get serious. Mikey Pratt recommends 42' of .008 cables, and if you punch up the power, I am finding that he is right on the money. If you don't modify the engine, you probably better not look at over 35' of .008. Don't even dream of trying to fly with .012 lines, unless you just want to climb, dive, and fly level. I also found that I needed extra tip weight (everyone seems to be finding the same), and it has now been added.
3. Power. I did manage to squeak in some large loops and lazy eights, but it was a near thing with the stock engine on 39' .008 lines and the RSM/Renger handle. Again following Mikey's recommendation, I pulled the engine and removed the screen from the venturi. Lo and behold, the venturi is molded with a serious restrictor. When the heck did that happen, and why??? I do like the cylinder porting, it is better than the old Black Widow's.
The original engine is sitting on the bench until I have time to mess with it. The model now features an original Killer Bee, Norvel Freedom plug (6!! gaskets) and APC 5.7x3 prop (Again Mikey recommended). At present, I have only flown on 39 foot lines, and definitely want the extra length recommended. However, using Aerodyne 350+P fuel, running somewhere around 20K, I was able to do all the maneuvers in the pattern. Somewhat oversize, but with potential for further improvement. Definitely a KB or TEE DEE cylinder and piston will help, but not much until you do the venturi. Then you will have a beast on your hands. The Killer Bee isn't going to run right with the original HV engine back plate, the venturi is too restrictive. The Killer Bee back plate without the added pipe works just fine, or you could add the pipe to the KB back plate, and that will work too. Sadly, C*x castrated all their performance engines some years ago. ONLY Killer Bees with yellow anodized crankcases and the plastic extension needle valves run the way it was designed to run. Sorry, but that's just how it is. The original engine in the Hyper Viper is the basic ready-to-fly one. I think it is completely stock.
4. With the extra speed and vibration, the canopy blew off. Goop adhesive to the rescue (Totally fuel proof, and clear)
Further stuff left to do - Go to the longer lines, play with handle spacing, cover the open rear of the fuselage with clear tape, or something ( Maybe CA some TYVEK to the fuselage and one thin coat of epoxy for a permanent fix?), Then experiment with more props.
One negative that we aren’t a going to cure, the model has a high wing loading. You absolutely need to keep the speed up, and that especially includes landings. But what the heck do you want for 1 hour's work and under $50?? Extreme power and long lines, definitely the way to go.
Recommendation - get at least one (or two, and learn monoline flying)
Larry Renger
Be sure and check the fuel tank before installing it. Like Rob on SSW, my tank was totally clogged from the inside. I called the guy at Estes and he is sending me a new tank. To check it, see if you can blow through the tank when you close off the fill/vent tube. Nothing goes through the outlet to the motor on my tank. Also, I had to cut some excess plastic from the fuselage around the elevator linkage to allow the elevator to move without clicking/sticking.
Nick Vanmatre
I measured the venturi size on the Killer Bee. The original, that is. The diameter at the spraybar is .185 inches. I would probably go for 11/64" for stunt, as the engine was originally intended for Nostalgia FF use. Mine seems to draw fuel OK in the Hyper Viper, but I only had time for one flight on it. Again, a "real" Killer Bee has an anodized crankcase, and the needle valve has a yellow piece of extruded plastic tube for an extension. If you have a recent, un-anodized crankcase, you just have an RTF engine with a noble name. No taper on the piston and cylinder, no sub-piston induction and the cheesy, stock crankshaft. (Actually, they are perfectly good sport engines, but not comparable to the original KB)
If you want a true "Killer" get the Davis crankshaft and an old Tee Dee piston and cylinder set. The un-anodized crankcase will do OK but you better be sure to use lots of oil in the fuel. Drill the venturi as above, and use a high-compression head with 3 gaskets or a Norvel with 4 or 5 gaskets, or, finally, the Galbreath/Nelson head and again 4 to 6 gaskets depending on the nitro content of your fuel.
I just use the back of a 3/16" drill gripped in a vice-grip pliers to press the spraybar out, then back in by hand. No hammer necessary. Of course, remove that little black seal first. I just reassembled my HV original engine after doing the drill thing. I put the exit hole of the needle about 15 degrees downstream of straight across. If straight down the pipe was 12:00, this would be at about 2:00 or 10:00) A study I read of in one of the magazines showed that this is the "sweet spot" for maximum fuel draw. The final touch was to use a chamfer tool, then an Xacto knife to bevel and smooth the entry down to the spraybar.
Larry Renger
Tom McClain
Chris
2) Google - - Columbia, SC "hobby shop" - There are a bunch of listings, although few, if any, have websites. Doug's and a couple of others should be checked out.
Join PAMPA - There are many "cottage industries" which make anything you might need; and a bunch of stuff you never realized you needed!
Ralph Wenzel
unfortunately, dougs is geared to the r/c car enthusaist. i'v already darkened his door, got blank stares from him when i mentioned u/c. he then brightened up, and pointed me towards a pt-19 he has on a shelf. i kindly thanked him, bought some #11 blades (the de riguer purchase at hobby shops for myself) and vamoosed. nice guy, though.
i agree, PAMPA is the org. to join. haven't done so yet.......
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
You have been given some good suggestions by folks who are much better flyers than I am. I am not going to contradict what they have told you. But I will add the extent of my personal experience with and observations of the two additional Hyper Vipers I've seen fly in my area, and you can decide which path to follow. They are fun to fly planes that now cost $43.00± at our local hobby shop. As you know they are complete with everything necessary for flight except the fuel and batteries.
Since you state that the only reason that you succumbed to that moment of insanity was to get you in the air to relearn inverted flight, I would advise you to do only a few things to get ready to fly.
1. Before assembly, test the tank in the manner that Nick suggested. Get a replacement, if necessary, directly from Cox.
2. Two of the three HV's flown here required a new tank for the very problem he describes. Assemble the plane exactly as described in the instructions, including (heresy!) using the supplied Dacron lines and handle.
3. Push a nickel into the "tip weight box" (the hole on the bottom of the outboard wing) for the extra tip weight recommended.
4. Use adhesive or clear tape to fasten the front of the canopy to keep it on the plane during flight.
5. Start and break in the engine exactly as shown in the instructions.
6. Go fly, preferably over grass until you feel comfortable with your progress with inverted flight.
While all the other suggestions have merit and will undoubtedly increase performance, the extra effort is not necessary to obtain a plane that will capably fly reverse wing overs, inside loops, lazy eights, inverted flight, and outside loops when built stock except for the items I’ve previously mentioned.
All three of the local planes were purchased at the same time and from the same source, along with three sets of SIG .008" × 35' lines. We got a wild hair to fly the planes one afternoon before the lines were made up. rjbob, one of the other flyers, had a set of .008" lines in his box, so he used those, but the two of us remaining, CR and I, were without, so we used the full length of the Dacron included with the plane, as well as the Cox handle. We broke in our engines at the field that day.
After three recommended break in runs, CR was first up and his plane flew well, doing the maneuvers I’ve described effortlessly, even though the engine was a touch rich. Upon landing, he restarted the engine peaked it out and flew again. This flight was great, as was his third, which immediately followed the second.
rjbob was next, and he had his needle set properly, but his plane appeared much faster than CR’s had been. After a few very fast, tight maneuvers, he flew the remainder of the flight pretty much level, getting dizzier and stumbling around the circle more and more as he flew. The engine finally quit and, to his relief, he landed. It was then that we discovered that those .008" lines of his were only 27’ long instead of the 35’ he thought they were. That extra 7' of line that CR used certainly made a big difference.
At that point, rjbob had to get back to his office, CR had some errands to run and I needed to be somewhere else, too, so we packed it in. The maiden flight of my own Hyper Viper was a few days later, but my experience was identical to CR’s. I, too, used the Dacron lines even though the .008" × 35’ lines were made up by then. We will probably switch to the .008" × 35’ lines for next summer’s flying (I know that rjbob will!) but will probably not make any of the other changes recommended by others unless we decide that we need to get to the Nth degree of performance out of our engines.
I should also mention that all the flights flown so far have been with less than ideal fuel (15% Nitro, 22% lube). Cox, as you’re aware, recommends a minimum of 25% nitro and a maximum of 18% castor fuel. We now have the Byron’s 1/2A fuel, which has that composition, but have not used it yet. This alone should improve performance quite a bit, even though we haven’t yet suffered from lack of performance.
For the price, I don’t think that one can’t beat the Hyper Viper, even stock, for its good, fun flying characteristics. In light of my experience, I would not hesitate to advise you to fly it stock at first and decide for yourself whether the extra mods are necessary for your flying style.
The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
Carl
The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
CR
George
The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
broke in the .049 under the watchful eye of some random ten year old who wandered up as i was fussing the fuel line onto the overflow. "cool" he remarked as the .049 suddenly barked and ran backwards as i had tried propping it instead of winding the aggrivating spring thing. he backed up a step or two as i leaned the needle and the rpms grew, finally coming to rest somewhere about ten yards off my aft. i ran it from a wet four cycle to a just breaking into two cycle back and forth as i had so many times in the past for an entire tankful, holding it with the outboard wing down. right towards the end, it screamed up to about 20k and died, out of fuel. Michael, as he was now identified thanks to the school id tag hanging around his neck, approached with the barrage of questions which i happily answered. he knew all about the troop gliders in ww2 and how "they were too heavy for their wings and landed downwind, which caused them to crash." smart kid, been watching discovery wings or perhaps the history channel. i moved the hv over to the stooge, fueled up and got it going again. tweaked the needle a bit leaner than a wet 4 cycle and picked up the handle, and pulled the stooge line. off she went, sorta lumbering along at first, then getting light and skipping off. i climbed to eye level and it leaned out a little, lap or so, and went rich again. i flew out the tank in a ragged, barely hanging on rich condition. next tankful was leaned out on the ground to what i "thought" would be acceptable. pulled the stooge line again, she slowly picked up speed and stayed at the end ov the lines, and lifted off in a beautiful takeoff, the tail in the air type. flew two laps and the engine went rich again. flew out that tankful same as before and had to quit. out of time again! cut the vents down to fifteen degrees as suggested, but still can't figure out going rich in the air. air leak?
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal
"sacrifices must be made" Otto Lillienthal