On Handles...

So far, I have received nothing short of excellent advice from this group. Betting that the odds are in my favor for even more, I pose the following...

Throughout all my CL flying, I've always used Hot Rock EZ-just handles, just (as I have learned) like my youthful CL stunt idol, Al Rabe. So, 30+ years ago, I bought the large Hot Rock and flew with it. Very sensitive, just like it's supposed to be. Now that I'm returning to models, I see pictures of almost any other current high-zoot pilot using extended/bar handles. A bit of checking reveals how these work, what they do, and how they do it.

So I says to my self "Self," I says, "you need to get one of these." And I did: a cable-style handle by Dick Byron that is a lovely piece of work. It's beautifully crafted with so many adjustable bits and pieces it's hard to know where to begin, though I've already received good guidance -- thanks, Marvin!

But now I'm having second thougts. I'm re-learning the pattern, and have not yet actually completed all the maneuvers. Ever. Some tools are truly beneficial in the hands of an expert, but might prove a crutch that does more damage than good in the hands of a rank amateur. While the new-style handles are quite impressive, if I use it, will I be short-changing myself in my training and development? Will I fail to develop some basic skills that I might not yet have?
Should I leave the new handle on the shelf until I'm competant with the pattern using my Hot Rock, or will I truly benefit from its use from now on?

What says the collective wisdom here?

As an aside, it's been said that when Nicollo Paganini first performed his works, other contemporary violinists were tempted to put down their instruments and never play again in the face of mastery the likes of which had never before been seen. Watching Larry Oakley fly, I can sympathize with that feeling.

Kim Elmore

Actually, I'm not sure the large Hot Rock handle was ever a Hot Rock - it was just an EZ-Just, with slight finger grooves molded in. The small EZ-Just was a Hot Rock, and was labeled as such. It did not have any finger grooves.

I always used the bigger one for stunt - it gave me more leverage. The Hot Rock handles I reserved for combat. Once you flew combat with a Hot Rock, flying stunt with one seemed very odd.

I think a handle is like a car seat. Once you get it adjusted just right, and get used to it, it's very irritating to change it. I don't think it affects your fundamental driving skills either way.

Like you, I learned to fly with the large grey EZ Just handle and flew combat with the red Hot Rock. When I started flying again in 2002, I had a new Hot Rock handle and a Ringmaster I built from an old kit. I later bought one of the handles with the overhung bar, and could not adapt to it. The best handle so far is Ted Fancher's handle now sold by Carl Shoup (see classifieds). I also have but have not tried a Reyco handle from Brodak. It is a wooden Hot Rock handle with closer spacing. I find that if I build an airplane with the current "slow" controls, a Hot Rock style works best for me. For the older, quick controls, Ted's handle with the line spacing at about 3" works best. Find something comfortable, and it might be different for different airplanes.
Steve
The older I get, the better I used to fly!

Yeah, that's the one. It's red, but I think it simply says "E-Z Just" on it.

I have to admit that keeping a level groove as I fly around the circle requires a lot of concentration with this handle/airplane combination. If the weather cooperates this weekend (how ironic for a meteorologist), I'll do my best to get the old Banshee trimmed with the new handle.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-04 AT 00:47 AM (CDT)
 
I grew up with a Hot Rock ezjust but, the 4" line spacing makes the controls too fast/too much travel on my ARF.

The hot rock squeezes my hand just a little which is perfect for me to keep my hand from sliding around. I have a wooden hot rock clone that is slightly smaller. It squeezes my hand too much and, the line spacing is not that much different.

I think alot depends on your airplanes control system. I have an ARF Cardinal so, I have to adjust for the way they built it.

I can't wait to get my "world championship" handle from Dick Byron. The cable spacing is adjustable so, I can compensate for undesirable control system characteristics without changing the comfort of the grip.

The handle looks more complicated than it is. There is only one adjustment to set which is line spacing. If your plane is jumpy move them in, if you're bending you wrist too much move them out. I'll bet you could have it in the zone with about 4 flights.

I don't think there's any reason to use the hot rock before moving up to a better handle. I guess your thinking if you can master equipment that doesn't work good you'll be great with equipment that's does. I learned the beginner pattern with a junk airplane and a Fox .19. I didn't know if I would like stunt and, I knew I had to do low pull outs. Well, I never wrecked and, I got pretty good at the pattern with this junker. So, I liked flying stunt a liitle more and got an ARF Cardinal with an LA .40. Now I'm learning to fly the pattern all over again. I had one flight last week that was a personal best. I can tell this plane is going to be much much better once I get it trimmed out. I'd say use the best equipment you can and it'll shorten your learning curve.


Hope that helps,
Giffy

There is another adjustment that will greatly effect how your plane feels with a bar handle .This is the space between the bar and your knuckles.This distance will make a huge difference on the amount of force required by you to make inputs.With a large distance between bar and knuckles this handle is going to make your plane feel really hard to make turns (heavy effort) in comparison to your EZ Just.Hope this helps you out some on your set up!

I don't think the handle is a static piece of equipment that you or your plane should have to adapt to. The handle needs to be tuned to the plane (and you) to be effective. All the adjustments allow you to do that.

Just my bit.

Actually my handles have another adjustment that many have figured out to help them. It is the line bias. That is the ability to adjust the lines (both) up or down to change the turning radius of inside and outside maneuvers. That is if you have larger inside maneuvers you move both lines down the handle to the down side to incresae the control input to "down" and decrease the input to "up" and vice versa.

You must make sure to keep the line spacing the same when moving both lines.

As far as the bar movement the is the place where many fliers do not even considder the posibility of adjustment. It is a very big part of the handles ability to smooth out the "groove" of level flight yet improve the control input. It is like the exponential in an R/C transmitter, less control in neutral, more control at the outer extreams.

Moving the bar out just a little will make a big change in flying.

You need to try all settings to achieve "YOUR" best feel.

About a dozen years ago Windy did a really informative video on handles, and did a pretty good job of explaining spacing, overhand, bar/ non-bar and the virtues of modifying a handle for each airplane. The end result of all his research ort of highlights the fact that the handle that most should use looks like the one that Ted designed and produced, or, if you prefer a "bar type", one of Dicks.
Windy is busy transferring his videos to CD(!!!!!) and I would recommend the handle video to anyone.

See Ya

>Should I leave the new handle on the shelf until I'm
>competant with the pattern using my Hot Rock, or will I
>truly benefit from its use from now on?
>
Kim,

Keep the handle you have!
It's a great handle for a beginner and expert alike! I've used Dick Byron's handle when I started flying again two years ago and it worked real well. It is straight forward to adjust even for a beginner. At first, I was adjusting the neutral only and left up and down lines the same distance from the middle. As I got better, I was able to tell the difference in turning insides versus the outsides. The handle allowed me to change the setting and keep improving. Now I can even tell the difference in handling based on how much overhang I have. The point is, Dick Byron's handle kept up with me as I improved(ha!).

Once you get comfortable with your handle, may I suggest getting a hard point bar for it. Having tried both types of handles, I am completely sold on the hard point handles. Dick Byron's handles are flexible enough to allow one to play with both types of attachments without having to buy two handles.

Keep the handle you have!

Steven Yampolsky

Hi Kim,
There is a lot of good advice in the previous threads. I would go with the best handle I can right now.
When I learned to fly, the only handle I knew about was the E-Z Just. I couldn't use the Hot Rock comfortably, it was just too small.
When I started to really fly in contests about 12 years ago, I got one of the cable/bar handles (Dick Byron), and haven't looked back.
I find the hard point handles (Ted's Precision Pro) to be great, also. Haven't made up my mind as to which I like best, seems to be on a plane to plane basis. Some would say that's crazy, but it is good for me right now.
I set up my handle with no bias, wide spacing, to start with. Then I can trim the turn, etc., on the plane before fine tuning it with handle adjustments. I use an adjustable length elevator push rod and slider horn on the elevator.
You will really notice a difference as you use it more and more, and your experience grows.
Bill <><

I wouldn't get too wound up in multi adjustable handles. Get a few of Tom Morris's simple jobs and use one for each plane and set of lines. They're only a few dollars apiece. Cut and trim each handle to suit.

The biggest problem with fully adjustable handles is Murphy's Law- if somebody can screw it up, they will. Guaranteed, if you use one fully adjustable handle and reset it for each plane every time you fly you will get it wrong more than once, and maybe crash. They are great however for trimming out a new plane and getting it flyable quickly. Once the plane is trimmed cut a Morris-style handle to suit the dimensions.

Hi Phil,

I would second your choice of Tom's handles, they are well made and inexpensive.

However, I cannot get one to work right with a "vertical" hand position. I have found the relaxed position to not suit me at all.

Any suggestions?
Bill <><

I drew a narrower, straight grip handle on the one Tom provides and sawed it down. Still needs a bit of trimming up to shorten the overhang, but it is close enough.

The only problem I've had is that occasionally the line clips flip around the screw eyes and give a false neutral. Pretty obvious when that happens and usually I can just unflip it in flight.

It sounds like the convetional wisdom is to use my new handle. I'll try it the next chance I have to fly, which, as I look a the latest maps, might be Sunday if the winds stay down and we stay above 50F.

I'm actually finding that I'm much calmer when I fly now than when I was younger. Perhaps it's because I've carefully thought out what I'm doing before I try it, whereas in my youth I made things up as I went Perhaps, too, I know that I'm flying over grass (before, it was *always* a hard surface) so I'm not as nervous about mistakes. Once I get competant, I doubt that the surface I fly over will much bother me.

You are all wonderfully generous with your advice and I appreciate it very much!

Kim Elmore

LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-04 AT 11:04 AM (CDT)
 
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Kim,

Keep your Byron handle. It is as good as you need until you know that you need something different. Could you win the World Champs with it? Sure!

Dick's handles are great, Ted's handles are great, my Chinese hardpoint handle is great. You need to use a handle for a long time before you will be able to make a decision about the need for something else.

FAR, FAR, FAR more important at this stage is to have a properly built, straight well trimmed airplane with a proven powertrain.

Use Dick's handle. keep the bar no more than 1/4" past the knuckles on your fingers and there will be little difference between this handle and one like Ted's. Set the total spacing at 3.5".

IMHO - A bar type handle allows you to dial in (equalize) the size of your inside and outside turns without having to compensate mentally for the inherent differences in the way the plane turns. You still have to trim the plane, but my preference is to make this adjustment at the handle and not on the plane or in your head.

Please realize that the best eqipment in the world is worth nothing without lots of practice (a gallon a week at least)and a coach that actually knows what they are talking about.

By far the best thing you can do at this point in your budding World Champs career, is to fly, have fun, fly, have some more fun, fly, repeat these instructions for a couple of years and if the bug keeps biting, enter a contest. Not to win, just for fun. You don't need any one's advice beyond that. You will know yourself if moving up the ladder and making the time and monetary committment to doing so is the right thing at that time. Flying for fun is, well, FUN!! Flying to win is fun too but it is also an enormous amount of hard work.

Hope this helps.

Oh, yes! What you said!

As a ham radio operator, I also contest but I have no delusions of grandure there, either: I haven't the time or money for a world-beating station, so I'm in it for the fun and camaraderie. I'm always out to better my last effort, and that's about it. There's no way I'll be able to mix it up with the likes of, say, W3LPL. WIth my modles, I look forward to entering a contest and putting up some flights, if for no other reason that to watch the flying and meet the people. It'll probably be with an ARF, but my skills won;t be worth much more than a well trimmed ARF for a long time. I love to build, but with little kids and a two-career family, building time is minimal. The kids enjoy being around the flying much more than they like to watch Daddy nearly stationary in his workshop

I do this because I'm a long-time-lover of things that fly. I want to do it well, of course, but I'm unlikely to need the FAI stamp on my AMA license any time in the forseeable future.

Trust me: if it's not fun, I'm not doing it! So far, I'm having a blast!

Kim Elmore

Hi Kim....Model airplanes, motorcycles, and ham radio ..What great hobbies....Mike, W6NVQ

Tnx, Mike, the "Old Harley Man" [email protected]

It looks like we need to set up a sked! Let's ste up an evening and frequency, and I'll be there. I prefer CW, of course, but SSB is just dandy, too. There seem to be a fair number of hams here. Maybe we should all get together on the air now that the weather is going, um, South.

I used to ride, too. Started with a Kawasaki KZ-400, stepped up to a KZ-650, then to a Honda VF-750F Sabre. My wife and I took our honeymoon on bikes, camping in the Southern CO moutains. All told, I have about 100k mi on two wheels. I got spooked, though, and started to come up with reasons to avoid riding, so I sold my Sabre and, with some of the proceeds, bought Tigger. We still have it, too, and I helped teach my wife to fly in it. She now has her private ticket and has the call N0MGC.

Kim Elmore, N5OP

Guys

For those of you who want or wish you could get a 4" Hot Rock.

If you ask Bigiron very nicely, he might be able to sell you a much improved wooden version or he might even give you a drawing for one.

for experts only !