Concerning those against the Pres

I've met John B. at one or two VSC and like him personally. I definitely appreciate what he has done to expand --primarily Stunt, but also other aspects of-- control-line.

Some personal observations about PAMPA?

I happened to be at the '73 Oshkosh NATS when several top competitors, who had been corresponding over several months previous, proposed forming what is now PAMPA.

By the way, that spells out PRECISION AEROBATIC MODEL PILOTS' ASSOCIATION.

Why create the organization? All of control-line was in desperate trouble. About 5 years earlier, with political protests rampant in the general population, VietNam, slot cars, and continuing industry/modeling press pressure toward RC (which was also sagging) AMA TOTAL membership was under 15,000.

The top competitors, who then, as now, work hard to make contests successful, from the official and hosting side -- not just behind the handle -- wanted to do what they could to help CLPA survive. It worked! Other groups were forming about the same time to support combat, carrier, racing, speed...

Control-line, while still small, had a resurgence, and is what we enjoy today. That might not have happened without our guys, and those in the other COMPETITION events. Sport CL in towns and cities would likely have vanished -- noise, developers, insert favorite here...

So, sport fliers (and John Ashford, as your spokesman)I love you too, man. And I also see that most casual sport fliers aren't into the hard backround work and persistence that finds, arranges and keeps circles for all of us to use, competitor or casual sportster.

Serious competitors ARE into that, because they find deep and great satisfaction in developing themselves and their equipment to the highest level they are capable of reaching. Their example and insights into the art of stunt flying have made it a much more enjoyable activity to so many of us. Stunt News, alone, deserves huge gratitude!

Their concern CREATED PAMPA, just as concerned competing combat fliers formed MACA, and both - and the others - survive because of their efforts. The structure of our organization evolved over the first few years, and has been amended from time to time, by the basic process.

One tradition that got into the by-laws is the annual general meeting at the Nationals. As the most involved competitors, our founders and those like them who've since joined, attend the Nats, they are the group most interested in maintaining what has made PAMPA a success.

My only concern with John Brodak's current 'take-charge' efforts is that it may be too democratic <g>.

PAMPA, again, was formed mostly by top competitors, who were willing -- and DID -- sweat out the additional administrative, organizational and AMA-liaison work that was necessary to make it work. There've been threads here, and articles in SN, and comments at various meets about the attitude differences between serious competitors and sport fliers.

Going direct to the total membership, of course, will reach the greater number who don't compete seriously, and so many of whom don't judge, record, write (in here or SN), teach, recruit, or do much that takes hard effort to keep the organization in being. (Many do, of course, and their value is the greater because it is a pure generosity without the ulterior motive of improving their own competition opportunities.)

If we can discuss adaptations to make PAMPA better, by all means let's do that.

But let's not have one roast goose dinner, then wonder the next day why there are no more golden eggs...

From 12,000 miles away, it looked like the sekret cabel from the east vs the sekret cabel from the west. It may not have been so, but that's what it looked like from afar.

Now we have the wicked witch of the east and the wicked witch of the west. I am sure that their individual agendas are slightly different but I am sure that they will work together for the betterment of PAMPA.

Just my 2c, Geoff

Now!! Did you start off flying high level competition or did you start off flying stunt in a more relaxed sport mode and then progress into the higher levels of competition? WE (PAMPA) MUST , in my opinion, have a good expanding base of sport and beginner stunt fliers to keep the upper skilled competitor ranks filled and expanding. Those modelers are important. Not so much as to control PAMPA, but to feed the organization as to feelings and trends. Us old heads tend to get tunnel vision when it comes to change.

Sorry if I got off into a rant.
(my BP Just spiked at 180/90)

Bigiron aka Marvin Denny

Marvin, Well said. I belive you are 100% correct on your observations. We need to work together....beginner to the most rabid competitor for the good of the sport...............T.Durrill

To put mildly, the peasants LOVE him. Mr. Bordak has a huge following of modelers who crave his products. Honestly, he has done more than anybody, ever, to keep control line alive.

I understand that the PAMPA elites consider him a "gunrunner" who arms savages with high performance firepower. If something is not done to stop Brodak, someday one of his posse might actually beat one of the PAMPA Permanent Top 20 at a contest, clearly, the End of The World.

Seriously, you should give the man a chance. Control Line is dying, and he has done more than anybody else to put it on life support.

Management tactics aimed at preserving the current aging junta do not help.

Paul (and others) there are two concepts here that keep coming up which show you don't know what the problem is all about.

First you praise John for all he has done for CL. Fine. He has put a business together and I and others sell his products. That, however, has nothing to do with the problem. His products are fine, but control line stunt was healthy and growing long before John got into the business, and solely, I might add, because of the contest minded individuals who formed PAMPA.

Second you use the terme "elitests" in reference to the top level competition flyers. The fact is, it is these "elitests" as you like to call them that have done more for CL over the years than any individual manufacturer including John Brodak. The airplanes you fly were all designed by these competition oriented "elitests" as you call them. The engines and the technology that makes them fly were all produced because of these competition "elitests". All of the technology and designb philosophy as well as all the helps and hints on how to fly properly have all come from these competition "elitests" who willingly share all that they know.

If all we had were individual sport flyers who never got together to compare and to compete, CL would be long dead and the technology we have today wouldn't exist. The "wannabe" sport flyer who may never enter a contest in his life, still competes in his mind against the "elitests". You want to learn the pattern and there is a drive to do better and it wouldn't be there if there were no standard to compare yourself to. If you were the only one in the world flying model airplanes, how far would you get? And how long would you stay with it?

These same people that you keep condemning have provided you with this board, they have spent countless hours in helping others. They don't come here to help themselves (after all, they are "elitests".) They have put together Stunt News and continue to provide the input and editorial work as well as publishing and mailing so you can have it in your hands. Without them, it would not exist.

PAMPA is the precision aerobatics competition organization. Because it is just that, those of you who are wishing to remain sport flyers are invited to participate in membership and learn from those who have gone there before you and to greater heights than you could ever achieve. But they do help you to achieve your level of satisfaction and experience in this hobby.

This whole controversy started with John stating that he had submitted his proposals to the EC, when, in fact, he had not. Now manbe he was (or is) planning to. But then he should have stated it that way rather than to say he had already done so. The EC members left out of the loop who learned about this for the first time in reading Stunt News then began to inquire and learned the gist of John's proposals. John apparently has a vision to make PAMPA into a general control line sport modelers' organization. That was not the reason for which this organization was founded nor the reason for its continued existence.

I think it is time for the sport flyer to recognize and applaud the competition flyers for bringing this hobby as far as it has come. Without them, much of what you have today would not exist, including, I might add, Brodak manufacturing. And don't call them "elitests". I have never found a one who was not willing to help and answer my questions when I stood at the bottom of the ladder looking up.

If you have a question, ask one of them. But don't turn your nose up at them because they fly competition and you don't.

As usual, you bring good sense to a difficult problem.

So far, the responses on this thread also seem to make good sense!

I'm a "mid level " competitor whose been at it off and on since the late 50's. That means I sure DON'T put fear into the hearts of the top flyers, yet some of our local beginners say they'd give anything to fly a pattern like mine. I think I'm in a good spot to see both sides.

The folks at the top have earned their status as the best and as very influential people by hard work and years of perseverance. Some are warm and personable and some "jest a tad" tougher to get along with. But, as you say, ask for help and every one I've ever met would give you the shirt off his back.

Many have put heart and soul into PAMPA, and sound just a bit like the father who see's every potential son in law as Jack the ripper. Who can blame them? Reading some of the comments from the pro's I've been tempted to attach a label also, until I realize that this is the same great group of people I've met and flown with for years. As you say, "eliteist" or other labels just are not appropriate.

Very few laid back, easy going people get to the absolute top in anything. What makes us potentially great also makes us react strongly to things we disagree with.

Precision Aerobatics by definition is competition. Without judging, it is simply fun flying, albeit high quality. Nothing wrong with that but it's not the same thing.

PAMPA's membership is not likely to try or approve of trying to make this into a general C/L organization. It is also, in my opinion, smart enough to realize that for PA to prosper, a stable and growing base of flyers must always be cultivated. Since we don't have baby's born with Hot Rock handles in their hands (yet!), we have to look to flyers who aren't there and bring them along. To me that is the essense of promoting P/A as strong and continuing competition.

Just as kids grow up and marry, well structured and membered organizations grow and accept that some change is needed for survival. If John B. has made diplomatic errors in handling things, he should correct them, but nothing mentioned so far approaches the "end of the world"or a threat to world peace. The rest of us need to find ways to HELP him define and implement what will keep this a growing and prosperous sport, not find constant and personal fault with him.

Let's save the knives for the balsa and work together in PAMPA!

However, if he did not have competition driving him, he would not fly at all. It is as simple as that. PAMPA is somewhat the same way. If it does not have competition driving it, we won't be members at all. And I am not talking of stuffing it in the back seat or to a side committee. I mean driving it. I can get the others elsewhere if I want it. I can get it here as a matter of fact. I am a member of PAMPA for one reason only. And unlike most all of the Sport Flyers who are members only because of Stunt News, that is not my reason.

Thanks for your direct response. I agree with what you're saying. When the initial dust settles, I hope that the differences of opinion turn out to be far less than at first glance.

If John really IS doing what some accuse him of, I'll be happy to contribute to the figurative "tar & feather" fund. The actual facts will become clear, but so far nothing seems set in concrete beyond opinion and conjecture. You may have more than that. I don't.

Meanwhile I join you in asking that we all cool the rhetoric and try to get along.

If you can refute quote by quote the statements of those who have pointed out truly and factually that John Brodak has not informed the entire EC as he is required of his intentions to change the PAMPA bylaws, then refrain from your baseless accusations of conspiracy and malevolent intent. The fact is that John has not followed the very PAMPA bylaws that he agreed to support when he was elected President. He has no other recourse than to obey the PAMPA bylaws as the President is required to do or resign. And I say this as one who voted for him.

I will quote John's own words from SN. "The first step, presenting the proposed changes to the Board, has already been taken. With the approval of the Board, as outlined in Article XII of our current By-laws, the proposed amendments will be presented to the full membership for their consideration."

The first step was not been taken as John said. Several of the Board, Don Hutchinson, Brett Buck, Dave Fitzgerald, and others were not informed until the furor started here on SSW. Now they have, but not as stipulated by John in SN. Second, as required in the PAMPA By-law Article XII:

"Article XII – Amendments to Bylaws:
Any active member or any Trustee may submit a proposed bylaw amendment to the Trustees at any time. Upon such a submission, the Trustees shall determine if the proposed amendment should be presented to the membership, and if so, the exact wording thereof and the time of presentation. All proposed amendments and action taken thereon shall be reported to the membership in the next issue of the newsletter following receipt of the proposal. Presentation of a proposed amendment to the membership shall be made in the newsletter, and adoption thereof shall occur only on a favorable vote of a two thirds majority of those members responding."

2/3rds of the Board must agree with the proposed amendments before they can be presented to the General Membership for vote. The chances of that seem very remote. John's statement, "the proposed amendments will be presented to the full membership for their consideration." makes it appear that the Board has voted in the affirmative. We have found out via SSW that that is not the reality that we are dealing with.

PAMPA is not a direct democracy. PAMPA is a representative organization very similar in makeup to the United States and its Constitutional government of representatives with checks and balances. Nothing happens fast with this system of governing unless there is consensus. These proposals that John has put forward appear to doubtful as their chances of adoption.

The tone and character of your message is disturbing. "Peasants," "Elites," "Gunrunner," "Savages," "Junta," plus "Control Line is Dying" are all polemical as well as statements without basis in fact. You come across as the "Elitist" with your diatribe. Either present facts or refrain from the ad hominem attacks that do nothing to advance your position. If you had done your homework, the fact that CL Stunt has come back from a low in 70s of approximately 300 flyers to its state today is one refutation of your baseless accusations.

I'm just an amused observer, not a combatant. I'm not against PAMPA, AMA, MACA, or the elitists. But it does appear that the elites are STRONGLY against Mr. Brodak and anybody who defends him.

I've been in a lot of volunteer orgainzations in my time, Cub Scouts, college fraternity, model clubs, AMA, MACA, F2d TSC, Indian Guides, more models clubs, and golf leagues.

The hardest thing in any of these is to find people who are willing and able to take leadership positions. I've done one-year jobs for two, six, and ten years, because nobody else would step up.

In any volunteer organization it's bad style to attack your leader. Just let him run out the term and replace him. Attacking the leader sets a bad example and makes it infinately harder to find another.

I am getting so tired of hearing you "elitests" constantly attack others with that word. Anyone who does not agree with your position is an "elitest". It is as bad to constantly call other people names as the accusation you are making of others "attacking" John.

I did not vote for John. I will say that publicly. I also am willing to support John as the elected president of the organization if he acts according to the mandates of his elected office. I, too, said, it is an election, we voted, we move on.

However, and this is a big however, John apparently has an agenda which is now coming to light. If we simply "let him run out the term" as you state, and let him make those changes which we feel are detrimental to the core purpose of the organization, then there won't be a PAMPA as we know it. And I say this, having learned of some of the proposals being suggested.

You know I am a semi-inactive flier, too. I enjoy many things about CL flying, primarily stunt. I regard you very highly among those who have given a lot to the hobby; I regret it if you thought I meant only the Nats Top Five types are "entitled" to help decide PAMPA policy. I surely don't.

I note a lot of comment in here from more recent 'flying buddies' about things they'd like to change. Some of the ideas have great appeal and make a lot of sense. ...some of them don't, and seem to be for making a change for the sake of making a change.

An open discussion of any proposed change, over enough time that everyone can understand what's been proposed: that's the ideal. It should work. It is the way the PAMPA exec council is required to do things. Sadly, the numbers of votes on such things are much smaller than they could be.

I guess those of us who care enough usually do vote. It leaves us, and PAMPA, vulnerable to a similar small number united behind something we may think less than the best for our continued enjoyment of our hobby.

Still friends? <g>