Improper attire?

From time to time, I have been involved with helping people learn to fly control line. Sometimes I have worn a PAMPA shirt whilst doing so. My thinking was that perhaps I was putting people in at the bottom of our pyramid, thus acting to "promote and improve the Control Line Precision Aerobatic event." However, I worry that long-time members of PAMPA, for whom I have great respect, may think I am rather "promoting CL in general", an activity inappropriate for PAMPA. Because I don't wish to offend anyone nor mislead anyone, perhaps I should not wear a PAMPA shirt while helping new fliers; some of whom might elect to fly something other than Precision Aerobatics. Better safe than sorry, I suppose.

Jim

Jimmie. I see nothing wrong with showing people you belong to a PROFESSIONAL organization. This should enhance your credentials as a person to provide good advice to a new person at the flying field.

What is more important to your attire, would be your helpful attitude, which I'm sure you have- or you wouldn't be doing this.

If anyone asks about your PAMPA hat, or shirt, go into a long monologue on the advantages of joining PAMPA!! (just kidding)\

"belong to a PROFESSIONAL organization"

>Floyd

EXPERT organization may be a better characterization considering the lack of sponsorships available...

Tools

Doesn't anybody around here recognize a bad joke put forth in a clumsy manner?

Dan,

I think that youve gotton most of us used to that by now!

BIGS

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

Jim, I frequently help new CL fliers while wearing a shirt that says "Bladder Grabber" on it.
If I can do that and get away with it, you should be able to wear your PAMPA shirt. Just don't wear it flying combat, or someone will grab your bladder.

John Thompson

Mr. Dan. If Jim T. is the person who I think he is, the guy has excellent credentials, and certainly more than I. Jim T. is a serious person, not given to making bad jokes here on SSW.

We all, at one time or another, have scoffed at the "white pants" and tennis T-shirt attire worn by C/L people back in the '70s flyng Navy Jet-type planes, when "Mr. Clean" scored extra points with Navy judges. those days are long gone (and you are a perfect example of the new "laid-back" casual, "just got back from the meadow" attire).

If I'm not mistaken, Jim T. was concerned that his PAMPA affiliation might be a daunting first meeting with someone looking for a helping hand with their model. I simply responded by saying that PAMPA membership ought to be a plus to any observer.

I'm sicking wih it.

Actually, Dan's comment has some verisimiltude. I was trying to make the point that I see the teaching of CL flying to be in accord with the purpose of PAMPA, but that others see a narrower definition of PAMPA's purpose. A couple of years back, as I recall, Charlie Bauer, on behalf of the AMA, approached PAMPA about developing an introductory CL program. I never heard anything more about it and presume we did not care to do so.

Jim T.

>Actually, Dan's comment has some verisimiltude.
>
>Jim T.

So there, you naysayers!

Jim,

My only point of contention here is that you are poking a lot of people with a sharp stick, and to my knowledge none of them deserve it. I certainly don't, and I am of a mind to keep PAMPA as is, the central focus being as stated in our by-laws.

Meanwhile, nearly separate from the PAMPA umbrella, I will gladly teach someone to fly CL, will drop whatever I am doing (especially if it is Howard's Impact) to help someone who has shown enough interest in CL to actually show up at the field. I have even, fairly recently, let a CL Speed flier borrow one of my models for three Stunt events over two days.

There are others, many of galaxy-class star quality, at least as defined by our own little CL universe, who have done more, much more to further CL sport flying, grassroots CL Stunt flying, whatever you want to call it, and they are percieved--possibly not by you, I wish to make clear--by some as being some sort of elitists. Simply for wanting an organization which they built from the ground up to be true to its founding principles.

That's really not fair, especially when I think back on many totally unselfish acts, witnessed by myself, peformed by (short version of the list), Paul Walker, Brett Buck, Ted Fancher, David Fitzgerald, Keith Trostle, Gordan Delaney, Don McClave, Bob Whitely and many others.

It is possible to be a die-hard, don't-change-nuttin' PAMPA guy who flies in Expert PA while still supporting entry-level folk.

One doesn't even need to change his shirt in order to do so...

Hard for me, just an ignorant engineer, to understand the jist of this. But I understand that this gets down to the basic complaint of "no new stunt flyers are coming into our ranks" (my quotes).

Maybe this topic has been done to death everywhere.

I don't know the answer, but I basically don't see any young people hanging around our flying field these days, wanting to see what we are doing. My own grandson, age 8, is not the least interested in model planes. At his age, I was chomping at the bit to witness any model airplane flying, even though it meant a mile bike ride.

>Hard for me, just an ignorant engineer, to understand the
>jist of this. But I understand that this gets down to the
>basic complaint of "no new stunt flyers are coming into our
>ranks" (my quotes).
>
>Maybe this topic has been done to death everywhere.
>
>I don't know the answer, but I basically don't see any young
>people hanging around our flying field these days, wanting
>to see what we are doing. My own grandson, age 8, is not
>the least interested in model planes. At his age, I was
>chomping at the bit to witness any model airplane flying,
>even though it meant a mile bike ride.

There is the view out there that we've lost them anyway, so why worry about it? I'm not saying that I agree with that, but the evidence implies that it may be something to consider.

I am shocked.

Jim Thomerson and Floyd Carter are the very people that I would assume to understand that certain factions and leaders in PAMPA are now using a tactic to manufacture an "us against them" feeling within the general membership.

This could be used to align one large group against another smaller core group. If then an agenda was to be taken to a membership vote, an overturning of the founding bylaws could take place.

What you did Jim, by putting forward your joke, idea, whatever, was to show me that there is indeed a wide area of influence by the side that wants to show a rift, or separation between factions.

I don't believe there is an actual fued between comrades at the field, or in general, beginner to expert. The beginners are helped by the experts and the guys like you are helping those that are starting to learn to fly. I teach my children to fly. Everyone must learn how somehow. The idea that only stunt flyers can belong to PAMPA is ridiculous. It is something that would mean a volunteer couldn't belong. The only ones that are saying these things are; those who have an agenda to show a split and use it to an end,
those who have come under their influence,
and those that like to interperate things in a certain way to cause trouble with no real malice( there are a few here as you probably know).

Jim, when I spent the summer coaching Sean McEntee at Wild Country, I was helping to promote stunt. When you help a guy or kid learn to fly, that is promoting stunt. If the guy decides he likes Scale, well, good for him. It doesn't mean that you are going to offend stunt guys. BUT...

To post this stuff on this forum as a problem, you as an influential stunt flyer are promoting thier lie. As sure as John Brodak's tone is a message to the troops, your comment here is a message that backs up this manufactured myth.

I am in hope that this is not what you intended.

Respectfully,
Chris McMillin

Man, I'm loving this. We now have the two separate blue state delegations fighting each other. If we keep this up, Hillary won't stand achance in '08! We red staters (most of us anyway!) appreciate this as it will make our task so much easier in '08! Keep up the good work, men!

(Very TIC, Big grin here.)

>Hard for me, just an ignorant engineer, to understand the
>jist of this. But I understand that this gets down to the
>basic complaint of "no new stunt flyers are coming into our
>ranks" (my quotes).
>
>Maybe this topic has been done to death everywhere.
>
>I don't know the answer, but I basically don't see any young
>people hanging around our flying field these days, wanting
>to see what we are doing. My own grandson, age 8, is not
>the least interested in model planes. At his age, I was
>chomping at the bit to witness any model airplane flying,
>even though it meant a mile bike ride.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Yeah! That mile bike ride is now ten miles and involves getting a parent to drive and stay while a highly suspect adult male teaches their baby to do something they believe only strange men do.

>>Actually, Dan's comment has some verisimiltude.
>>
>>Jim T.
>
>
>So there, you naysayers!
>
>Jim,
>
>My only point of contention here is that you are poking a
>lot of people with a sharp stick, and to my knowledge none
>of them deserve it. I certainly don't, and I am of a mind to
>keep PAMPA as is, the central focus being as stated in our
>by-laws.
>
>Meanwhile, nearly separate from the PAMPA umbrella, I will
>gladly teach someone to fly CL, will drop whatever I am
>doing (especially if it is Howard's Impact) to help someone
>who has shown enough interest in CL to actually show up at
>the field. I have even, fairly recently, let a CL Speed
>flier borrow one of my models for three Stunt events over
>two days.
>
>There are others, many of galaxy-class star quality, at
>least as defined by our own little CL universe, who have
>done more, much more to further CL sport flying, grassroots
>CL Stunt flying, whatever you want to call it, and they are
>percieved--possibly not by you, I wish to make clear--by
>some as being some sort of elitists. Simply for wanting an
>organization which they built from the ground up to be true
>to its founding principles.
>
>That's really not fair, especially when I think back on many
>totally unselfish acts, witnessed by myself, peformed by
>(short version of the list), Paul Walker, Brett Buck, Ted
>Fancher, David Fitzgerald, Keith Trostle, Gordan Delaney,
>Don McClave, Bob Whitely and many others.
>
>It is possible to be a die-hard, don't-change-nuttin' PAMPA
>guy who flies in Expert PA while still supporting
>entry-level folk.
>
>One doesn't even need to change his shirt in order to do
>so...
>
>Dan

Dan; instead of dropping Howard's Impact, use it to teach. Just Kidding, Howard is probably still upset at me for winning combat at Swope Park. =DOC:)

Doc wrote: "Just Kidding, Howard is probably still upset at me for winning combat at Swope Park. =DOC:)

Doc,

When did you win combat at Swope Park and what plane/engine combination were you flying? I won a few trophies stunt/combat out there around 1966 or 1967..............Terrence Durrill in Platte City, MO

Doc needs your help Terrence. Last I knew he was looking to have some racing/carrier/combat something or other here in KC. I haven't been able to work up the time and money to do it alone. Wonder if between the three of us we could get something done?

Topeka looks to be having a fall stunt contest next year, still in the maybe stages. That's a little sore as the carrier race contingent wanted to have an event in the fall but that didn't materialize. I still think the formation of the question was off. I think if they would have said, "I'm sanctioning a fall contest, are y'all gonna help" might have been more appropriate. In any case, we need some more events here and I'm strapped to do them alone.

Whatcha say Terrance. The only way we're gonna live the gold ole days again is to make them for the new guys.

Oh, and doc pulled KP at the last supper, so you might actually know him.

Young guy joke.

>Doc needs your help Terrence. Last I knew he was looking to
>have some racing/carrier/combat something or other here in
>KC. I haven't been able to work up the time and money to do
>it alone. Wonder if between the three of us we could get
>something done?
>
>Topeka looks to be having a fall stunt contest next year,
>still in the maybe stages. That's a little sore as the
>carrier race contingent wanted to have an event in the fall
>but that didn't materialize. I still think the formation of
>the question was off. I think if they would have said, "I'm
>sanctioning a fall contest, are y'all gonna help" might have
>been more appropriate. In any case, we need some more
>events here and I'm strapped to do them alone.
>
>Whatcha say Terrance. The only way we're gonna live the
>gold ole days again is to make them for the new guys.
>
>Oh, and doc pulled KP at the last supper, so you might
>actually know him.
>
>Young guy joke.
>
>From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
>William Crane
>AMA 6733

Here is a case in point of what is happening in PAMPA. MrClean has not been reading his newsletter, nor been to meetings. Need to use the phone and ask question of individuals. The late August contest is going to be for two stunt events(still under discussion). That way the Memorial Day Contest would remain the same. Another individual thinking that the weekend was going to be made into a stunt only contest, sacrificing carrier and racing. Nothing like face to face contacts to square things. Now if we could get this thru to the individuals that want to bring things up in a stunt forum and not consult John Brodak. ==DOC:(

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-04 AT 03:07 PM (CST)
 
Dan (R)

>and I am of a mind to keep PAMPA as is, the central focus being as stated in our by-laws.

Hear, Hear!

We have procedures to change current rules, even the By-Laws themselves.

I'd regret seeing our central purpose changed; that might affect my interest in PAMPA membership. (It would take a name change, or the organization's title would become a mockery.)

There've been many GOOD changes made, using the procedures in the By-Laws. We've benefited from them. They've worked to date, and - let's hope, and ensure - will work whenever used.

BTW, I also felt that Jim T was gently speaking somewhat tongue in cheek. His point is serious, though, we've gone into escalating flaming over minutiae a bit much lately...

Dan:

To which of my contest flights are you referring?

>From time to time, I have been involved with helping people
>learn to fly control line. Sometimes I have worn a PAMPA
>shirt whilst doing so. My thinking was that perhaps I was
>putting people in at the bottom of our pyramid, thus acting
>to "promote and improve the Control Line Precision Aerobatic
>event." However, I worry that long-time members of PAMPA,
>for whom I have great respect, may think I am rather
>"promoting CL in general", an activity inappropriate for
>PAMPA. Because I don't wish to offend anyone nor mislead
>anyone, perhaps I should not wear a PAMPA shirt while
>helping new fliers; some of whom might elect to fly
>something other than Precision Aerobatics. Better safe than
>sorry, I suppose.
>

Very, uh, amusing.

But you make a good point in that people are apparently falling for the concept of this controversy as being about "us VS. them". NONE of the changes I have heard of (still have no direct information from the source, despite repeated inquiries) have anything particular relevant to helping sport fliers or otherwise improving the support for other events. Nor to the current bylaws have any particular slant towards competition fliers aside from defining the reason the organization was formed.

Competition fliers and administrators are not elitists nor the enemy of sport fliers, and sport fliers aren't the enemies of competition. PAMPA, even as run for the past 30+ years by these "elitist competition b*st*rds"* has been by far the biggest friend to sport fliers that C/L, IN GENERAL, has ever had.

Divide and conquer is a well-known and effective tactic. I strongly urge PAMPA members of any particular viewpoint on these issues to NOT BE DRAWN INTO THIS LINE OF THOUGHT. I feel it's a manipulation technique that we should all be smart enough to avoid falling prey to. Take issues on THEIR MERITS, not who supports them, or what their CLAIMED or PERCEIVED intent might be.

Brett

*recent phone message, anonymous of course

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-04 AT 07:39 PM (CST)
 
I prefer a tee shirt with "69% fewer cavitys with Coors", "If it feels good, do it" or "Texas Sucks".
Obviously one reson my scores are usually rather poor.

So what was it that Dirt's Shirt says??? Something about control line flying I think.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

A fairly crude attempt at the noble art of satire.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-12-04 AT 09:50 PM (CST)
 
An interesting message relating to youth in model aviation was contained in Larry Kruse's article on page 36 of the November issue of Flying Models. It also adds an interesting viewpoint to the unmentionable rule.

While you are in there, also read the PAMPA ad on page 16. Up through early 2004, this ad contained the words C/L Aerobatics twice in the first paragraph. Not any more. The ad starting around April of 2004 uses the words "sport" and "all skill levels and C/L interests"! A most interesting turn of events as I, a District Director was never notified that there was a change forthcoming. Seems like the EC was bypassed on this issue with no justification or even notice from whomever ordered the change. A seemingly clear violation of the PAMPA bylaws.

Isn't this about shirts?

Yes, and IMHO what's on the front or back is not as important as the attention paid to the armpits.

>An interesting message relating to youth in model aviation
>was contained in Larry Kruse's article on page 36 of the
>November issue of Flying Models. It also adds an interesting
>viewpoint to the unmentionable rule.
>
>While you are in there, also read the PAMPA ad on page 16.
>Up through early 2004, this ad contained the words C/L
>Aerobatics twice in the first paragraph. Not any more. The
>ad starting around April of 2004 uses the words "sport" and
>"all skill levels and C/L interests"! A most interesting
>turn of events as I, a District Director was never notified
>that there was a change forthcoming. Seems like the EC was
>bypassed on this issue with no justification or even notice
>from whomever ordered the change. A seemingly clear
>violation of the PAMPA bylaws.
>
>Don

Don,

My congratulations! I've been wondering how long it would take for someone to first notice the changes and then to bring it up here.

A sign of evil intent? Probably not. A change of focus for our beloved PAMPA? That's what I see. And I don't like it...

Yep, and also note that the Sept/Oct issue of S/N contained four pages covering scale, racing, combat and carrier. Draw your own conclusions as to the agenda, then read article 1 of the by-laws.

Jim, It's your hobby.

Jim- I've tried to e-mail you and send private message through ssw but to no avail. It had to do with shirts smelling like diesel fuel. dale g

Jim,
It seems clear to me that someone has really upset you. Maybe you should tell us about it. Email me if you think it might help.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-04 AT 07:11 PM (CST)
 
I have a hard time seeing why memebers of the Pampa directors are arguing PAMPA policy and differences with the president and other board members on a message board such as this. Regardless of what one or the other party may say, this sort of discussion should be taking place in private and should be led by the PAMPA directors.

"promote" Precision aerobatics can have a wide range of meaning. If the President, in his implementation of the board's policy of "promoting" Precision Aerobatics has made an error in the wording of an advertisement, the board should be taking this up directly with him. I don't believe it is in the best interests of PAMPA to have board members trying to micromanage every advertisement, T shirt logo, or every wearing of a PAMPA shirt at a non-precision aerobatics event on a public discussion board. The board's job is to give overall policy- i.e. "promote PA"- and then oversee what is done. Something like using the PAMPA logo and funds to host a big dollar combat or carrier event is obviously well out of that scope. Getting picky over the exact wording of advertisements intended to get more flyers into PAMPA could very well be nit-picking. I expect reasonable elected officials to work out differences with the good of the organization in mind.

Discussion of the direction of the organization is quite the thing here. The president's November column is something we ought to be discussing. Regardless of whether or not they have been formally presented to the board, ideas are open for member discussion. The President, as a leader, should be suggesting directions and actions for discussion, both amongst the board and among the membership.

Growing the event and increasing membership is a legitimate item to discuss. So is updating the bylaws to reflect the large growth of the organization over the years. Possible changes to the bylaws should be open to discussion at any time.

Phil,

You are correct in many ways. But surely it has not escaped your notice that the one time each year when all EC members, or their appointed substitutes, are in one place at the same time is the Nationals.

An excellent opportunity to sit down and hash out the future direction of PAMPA, both at the detail level and the policy level.

Yet Brodak chose to not even have such a meeting at the 2004 Nationals.

He evidently preferred an open meeting. Fine. Except now we know that even when a matter was brought up in this open meeting (Warren's service and suitable acknowledgement of same), was approved by acclimation, as reported in the minutes of the meeting and as submitted to Stunt News, John objects.

He claims to want to do what the members want him to do, preferring pure democracy. Yet when they vote, and for whatever reason he doesn't like the result, that's a big problem.

This is just a little confusing to me, way out in the hinterland as I am.

Also, I did find it most amusing to see Brodak, in a recent president's column, bemoaning the fact that the proposal to honor Warren would have been better discussed in private prior to the open meeting. A meeting which could not take place simply due to John having cancelled it.

Hey! Pick one! And then go with it...

To "promote and improve the Control Line Precision Aerobatic
>event."

What, Gentle persons of the forum , would the reaction be to Lederhosen and an Aloha shirt, I wonder?

Sokay, we had a guy back in my old free flight days who used to come out to fly wearing a toga! And this was years before Animal House.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-04 AT 10:35 PM (CST)
 
At the World Championships in Muncie this year, a very successful World Champion and Walker Cup winner was heard to exclaim, upon observing a flyer practising his trade in attire best described as a thong- "Well, you sure can tell it's the Worlds!". dg

Flip-flops or underwear?

Isky, ballcap.