My thought on ARFS

When I decided to get back into this hobby I bought a arf Nobler. I flew it exactly 6 flights and hung it up. Some people say they fly as well as a builder plane. I didn't think so. The point is if your not a builder of planes and want to get into the hobby then so be it.

I have seen on this board many discussions about rule changes and I for one don't care one way or the other. I will always build the planes I fly. I my opinion the biggest enjoyment come from the satisfaction of seeing a product that I created come to life. I think the biggest problem with the kids today is instant gratification. When I was taught this hobby it was part of the fun to create. I can remember sitting in High School waiting to get home to sand and now nothing has changed only I'm at work. So for now let the new comers fly ARFS and maybe just maybe they'll come around to the best part of the hobby.

Just my opinion.

The problem is, the new comers can't fly ARFS because...they can't fly. Even if someone can fly basic stuff and uses the ARF to learn maneuvers or to fly the pattern, he is going to crash. Now, he either junks it and buys another. He won't do that very long. Or he learns to repair it. Now he has to learn how to build before he even built something. And he has no plans to go by or knowledge of structure or...

In the RC field you can fly high and you can learn with somebody tied to you with a buddy box. Here you are on your own.

Methinks most ARFS are being bought by the sport flyers who were just wanting another plane or someone wanting an engine test bed. A few might want a new plane quick for a contest. But I don't see this as the magic elixer to get new people into the hobby.

Agreed but if I see some one new (and I have) I try to help.

Great story!

Absolutely to all you say, but in my case, I plan on getting an ARF Smoothie for nothing more than having an instant OTS plane. I have a Viking on hand to build, but the ARF is much easier for an "Apartment" dweller to put into action.

If you fly over 8 minutes, do you get your pattern points?

If you fly 2 loops instead of 3 do you get 40 points for inside loops?

HI Jim

We really do not need a rule on this. We have one already
ARFs are legal to fly in most any PAMPA class. and old time , You just DO NOT get appearance points for the model. The only contest you cannot use ARfs at is for example , the U.S. NATs where the fly Jr. SR. Open, those 3 groups have a BOM. The Advance, Intermediate, and beginner do not , so ARFs are OK to fly there.
So bottom line is for most of the contest held , you can fly an AFR , Including the U.S. Team Trials.

Regards

HI Jim

Yes you are making sense, I was only addressing the fact that ARFs are legal in most of the contest as of today. As far as giving them apperance points, and allowing them to fly at the Open, Jr. , and Sr. level at the NATs ,this would require a rules change by the AMA process . I am sure someone will be making a proposal for this very item soon

Regards

There are no appearance points in OTS or P40, and the Brodak Cardinal has won numerous times in both P-40 and seperate ARF events. The Smoothie although operating with a 10 point handicap because it has flaps could still be a viable contender for winning OTS events. I fully intend to try winning some OTS events when I obtain my Smoothie! With 20 appearance points and sometimes 20 fidelity points I believe as you that giving up that many points would probably be a fatal blow to winning in Classic or PAMPA classes, except of course if the plane happened to belong to Bart!

Most of the guys in our group want or built one as "pattern foder" or just a go fly it with no emotions plane. It's a bunch less nerve racking to fire up the ARF after a lay-off (here in OH it's as much as four months) and get the reflexes retrained than to take out the contest ship. Considering the cost and time required to get in the air... they are just another tool for perfecting the skills.

Doc,
You're right on with this. My oldest son took to flying CL like a duck to water. I was simply amazed at how quickly he picked it up.
He was doing loops and wingovers on his second flight. I have a friend whose son was the same way only he was doing lazy figure 8's on the last few minutes of his FIRST flight. We wondered if years of video games and the hand/eye thing it develops played a role.
What ever the reason some people take to some things much faster than others including flying CL.

Interesting note, while my oldest can out fly me he can't touch a bottle of glue without glueing his fingers together ARF's are defintely a part of his future.

I really don't like to build all that much!

As most "Experts" will say, even a well built plane needs to be trimmed in to flying. I think no matter how you get something into the air (Scratch, kit, bought from another flyer, or ARF), whether it flies well depends upon the next step of trimming. I include engine, tank, warps, wingtip weight,........

If your Arf Nobler wasn't flying right, I think you haven't spent enough time to trim it out. There is no reason that it won't fly as well as a kit built Green box Nobler (built straight with good wood).

I don't disagree that the emotional attachment is different, but that is a sword which cuts both ways.

Let me put it this way Not my cup of tea!

I have heard thet they are killing the kit business for certain producers. I hope this is a tempoary trend and goes down.

At Brodak's this year, we had some discussion regarding what effect the ARFs would have on Brodak's own kit business. Example: We can purchased from our local source, a Cardinal profile kit for $79.00 and a Cardinal ARF for $100.00. There's more than $21.00 in additional materials to finish the kit with out considering any labor. Seemed to us that Brodak's own kit sales for these planes would suffer. Particularly the profile stuff.

I don't think the cottage industry kit guys are getting rich as it is and I too hope they don't pack it in.

I think they are just fine for someone that needs to get a model in the air fast just so he/she has something to fly. I don’t think that you will see a big influx of new people pouring into C/L clubs or fields just from the ARF’s, but they will have their place in the sport. Some ARF models would make a good test bed for breaking in engines or when you just want to do a little sport flying without risking or putting undue wear on your contest ship. The ARF models will also provide a source of models for people that don’t have the place and/or the skills needed to build a model from a kit or plans. This is not a slam, but just a fact that some people can’t build or don’t have a place to build, but they do love to fly.

Flying your ARF model at a contest is fine with me and should be encouraged by all fellow modelers. However, they should not receive appearance points for an ARF. If you have a different class for the ARF models, then knock yourself out and give them all the points you want. Some of the people that I have helped think that just because you by an ARF and assemble it they think it should fly competitively right out of the box. Most ARF models will fly quite well but not to the point of being a true contest winner. It still takes the knowledge and know-how to trim a model to its full potential. Trimming is something that takes time to learn or the help of an experienced stunt flyer to achieve. I don’t know of a single stunt flyer that would not give anyone a helping hand if they needed it or asked for it (that includes Bret LOL).

I also assembled the Nobler & Flite Streak ARF’s and was impressed with the overall quality of the construction and instructions. Sure there are a few things that I would (and did) change but for the most part, a reasonably flyable model can be easily assembled in a very short amount of time. I have yet to see any of the new ARF models from Brodak with the exception of the Wendy’s Profile. There again, pretty nice model for the money and should serve as a very nice platform for those who fly one.

It is my opinion and many others that building the models is ½ the fun. To this I agree totally but I do not want to imply that flying an ARF is something Not Cool. I enjoy designing and building models of my own creation (after all that is what I do for a living) and to see that model perform as I intended is a very satisfying and provides a feeling of accomplishment that is hard to describe. Finishing is another aspect of stunt flying (modeling) that I enjoy that lets the artistic side come out with different types and styles paint schemes.

One of the big issues that many of the modelers are missing today is that they can go as far with this hobby/sport as they want to. Be it sport flyer or hard core (like me) competitor there is room for us all.

Mikey

That makes the most sense so far. The only thing I will add is some find it hard to purchase a kit when the Arf can be had for about 20 bucks more. Just makes good business sense for some to buy the arf, your getting more for your money and a lot less effort is required.

However, I like to build almost as much as the flying. How about Sig Mikey, any new c/l planes going to be produced or is SIG totally r/c?

I'm a huge Sig fan, my first real c/l plane was a Twister, first r/c plane was a Kadet Mark I.

Thank you Mikey. The Primary Force is flying better each time I take it out. Finally solving fuel problems with one of my trusty Fox 35's. Thanks again for a wonderful design. While looking for a set of plans for another modeler, I found the Force plans. May have to get it going. Later, -DOC:-)

The Force is a butt kicker with a LA 46 mounted up front. Let me know and I will send you the specs. Way Cool!!!!

Mikey

I learned to fly CL by myself, and I imagine others here did also. What are the chances of someone like myself managing to get together a CL airplane, get it operating, and learn to fly it around level without help? Two messages here if we wish to grow control line: we need to help people, secondly, we need a take it out of the box and fly it CL trainer.

I work in a Harley-Davidson dealership and was caught in th act of the pattern. They thought I was some kind of KungFu Expert. LOL

However, I love the ARFs. I can practice powerplant/prop combinations and learn maneuvers without worrying about destroying a work of love. No, they aren't great for beginners. But I am so happy they are an alternative.

Jim,
I think your assumption on the current ARF or ARC models being lousy trainers is dead on. They are a bit fragile for the beginner. But the old standby solid wood models are too costly to produce for the mass market. Something molded out of foam and reinforced with plywood is a good start for a low cost material. However, the cost for the molds would scare the heck out of you (20 to 30K). Electric power is not the answer at all. The electric motor and the batteries are not that bad if you use something like the low cost 500 can motors. But when you start putting all the components together that are needed, such as the model, electric motor, prop, wheels, batteries, charger, the price gets out of hand in a hurry. In addition, the rank beginner would need the model completely assembled with everything included, including the lines and handle.

It is also my opinion that if it sold for more than $75.00 you would be shooting yourself in the foot, BIG TIME! So how do we make a trainer like that? You only have a few options to do this. Get some rich guy to come up with 75K and lie to him saying that we will make his investment back in a few years (maybe 10) LOL. Or look at another alternative and that my friend, is the hard part. I can’t think of a manufacturer that is willing to speculate 75K for a C/L trainer. Sorry to put a wet blanket on your idea but these are the facts. Estes spent 30K just on the tooling for the updated PT-19 plus the cost of manufacturing the models and the engines.

Mikey

See Ya

I'm not alone, half the people in my club most of whom are serious flyers (serious about having their fun) have bought ARF Cardinals. They looked so good for the money... They bought these Cardinals even though they fly kit and scratch built and their own original design planes... Some of our most skilled builders enjoy the heck out of the ARFs. Even as they continue building and designing. We don't seem to have much trouble adjusting to the new lay of the land. Just adds to the riches of the hobby.