Rules ReWrite II

Lets try this again, and see if we can have more discussion about the actual rules, which I have heard many people complain about, and some suggested rewrites. Feel free to add any other problems to the list.

An event definition- all the rules should all be in alignment with the definition. The rules need a definition to set the direction. Then all the individual rules follow from that definition.

Pilot's circle and use. A safety issue. People do wander and fly into light poles. A consequence for wandering is needed.

Starting- hand signal within 2 minutes, down from 5. Maybe keep 5 for beinners.

Judging Procedures- one or more acceptable ways to come up with a score. Judging is the most important part of the event. While judging is subjective to a degree, it is by definition not simply a personal preference. Giving the judges clearer direction on how to come up with a score that reflects what they saw is needed.

Judging Guide-description and definitions of the maneuvers from the judges point of view, and how to score them.

New Cloverleaf definition. the current one has a problem confusing "level flight" and "straight flight" and is difficult to judge.

Revamp all the maneuver definitions to eliminate ambiguities(variances, what exactly is included- is wind direction part of a maneuver?, etc.)

Builder of the Model

Division of classes- age or skill? or both.

Contest Procedures- how to run the circle(s), how to assign flyers, and judges, time considerations, etc. Ideally, the same procedures would work for any size contest so that the nature of the competition does not change.

These are a few things. Any more would be helpful.

When AMA and MACA did this with the combat rules back in the '70's about 90% of the protests disappeared. Now I know PA flyers aren't as "combative" as combat flyers and generally don't protest, but having a clear, unambiguous set of rules would eliminate a lot of back-of-the-circle griping and maybe make competitions more enjoyable and perhaps attractive to more flyers.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-04 AT 05:32 PM (CST)
 
>Contest Procedures- how to run the circle(s), how to assign
>flyers, and judges, time considerations, etc. Ideally, the
>same procedures would work for any size contest so that the
>nature of the competition does not change.

I am proposing that there should be a Nats Section for the AMA CLPA rulebook. It would outline specific procedures for all of the things you have mentioned. I would advocate simply publishing the current procedures with some tweaks to make the procedure is a rule and not a suggestion. I would feel that only the procedures that directly effect the ability of the flier to score should be in the actual rules. This would include some if not all of the following:

1. Circle layout (markers, etc).
2. Contest format (the current format should stand up nicely).
3. Circle assignment for fliers.
4. Circle assignment for judges.
5. Method for determining judging performance (if nessessary).
6. Warm up flight procedures.
7. Judges training (minimum requirements)?
8. Appearance judging procudures (Trostle did a good preliminary version of this, with tweaking it could be published).
9. BOM (this will be addressed in the General Control line section, but there could be Nats specific rules).

I feel that a Nats section could serve as a template for any contest if a CD chose to use it. In that way the standard Nats format would be the highest standard of the land.

When choosing whether a procedure should be a rule, I use the mantra, "if it could effect the score of a flier, it should be in the rulebook."

FYI: This is a rough scan of the PAMPA Nats Procedures Guide written by Keith Trostle. It is the only Nats procedure set I can find that has ever been written down, at least in recent times. The new Nats section in the rulebook would replace all outside manuals.

CONTENTS
NATIONALS EVENT DIRECTOR'S MANUAL
Page
Pre NATS Timetable 1
Selection of Workers. 1
Assistant Event Director. 1
Head Judge/ Judges. 1
Tabulator. 1
pit Bo s s ( e s ) 2
Others. 2
AMA Procedures. 3
NATS Budget. 4
NATS Manpower Requirements. 5
Trophies. 7
Supplies. 8
NATS Timetable 9
NATS Competi tion Summary. 11
NATS Forma t 12
Tuesday. 12
Wednesday. 14
Thursday. 14
Fr iday 15
saturday. 17
Seeding Proces s 18
Seeding Judges. 18
Ranking System. 19
Judges List. 2 O
Flight Order Scramble Guide. 22
Form Let ters 30

NATS PROCEDURES
EVENT DIRECTORS MANUAL
Pre NATS Timetable
There is a basic timetable which should be established by the
Event Director (hereinafter known as ED) to facilitate the actual
operation of the NATS. Below is a compilation of things which should
be implemented as soon as he/she assumes the position.
I. Selection of Workers
A. Select Assistant Event Director (hereinafter known as AED)
as soon as possible
1. Should be a candidate for running the NATS the
following year
2. Familiar with AMA Rule Book
3. Should be able to arrive early enough at NATS site to
assist with all preliminary preparations
4. Able to assume responsibilities if Event Director
unable to attend NATS
5. AED should remain on the field during flying hours and
be prepared to make decisions as the ED in the event
the ED is preoccupied with other details.
B. Select Head Judge as soon as possible
1. Previous experience as a NATS judge preferable
2. Familiar with AMA Rule Book
3. Capable of arriving in plenty of time to set up judges
training on Monday and Tuesday
4. Prepared to gather judges with support of ED -form
letters that can be used are included in this manual.
a. Selection of judges should begin as soon as
possible after Head Judge is selected
(1) Previous NATS judging experience preferable
(2) Geographic distribution of judges should be
as wide and as even as possible (i.e. ideal
distribution would be 3 from West Coast; 3
from East Coast; 3 from the South; and 3
from the North
(3) Should have some back-up judges on list for
replacements of anyone not able to attend
at last minute
(4) Able to arrive in time for judges' training
sessions held on Monday evening and Tuesday
morning.
(a) Monday evening -review of the rule
book
(b) Tuesday morning -at flying site for
on the spot training
b. List of experienced judges/addresses/phone
numbers included in this manual.
C. Select Head tabulator and get manual off to him/her as soon
as possible (obtain an assistant tabulator also)
1. Should be familiar with procedures at tabulating table
and AMA requirements
-
March 1, 1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 1
-
I ---
2. A separate manual for tabulator included. A copy of
this should be forwarded to tabulator for
familiarization well in advance of competition.
3. Should have experience and dexterity with adding
machines
D. Pit Boss(es)
1. Insure pull test equipment is available and tested
before competition begins
2. Should be familiar with procedures and requirements of
pull test operation
a. Line lengths and diameters
b. Stress requirements
c. Is not to handle airplanes -flyer will pull from
his end
E. Others -can be gathered at NATS site prior to competition
1. Recorders (work along side judges writing down their
scores on the score sheets)
2. Runners (collect score sheets from judges after each
flight and deliver to tabulating table)
11. Get AMA required paperwork mailed as soon as possible -this
comes with the AMA Organization and Functions Manual (hereinafter
referred to as AMA Manual) mailed directly to ED.
111. Utilize Stunt News
A. to solicit workers
B. to inform PAMPA members about:
1. site
2. hotel arrangements
3. other specifics regarding format
IV. Familiarize yourself with AMA Rule Book.
V. Unofficial Events -AMA requirements spelled out in AMA Manual
A. ED not responsible for running unofficial events
B. May assist with finding someone to run said events
1. Those running unofficial events are responsible for
acquiring:
a. Judges
b. Tabulators
c. pit boss(es)
d. Trophies
e. Other items necessary for said events
VI. Determine what method you will use to draw for flight order and
prepare ahead of time
A. Ping pong balls
B. Pieces of paper
c. Other
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 2
-~~~~~---
r
AMA Procedures
The AMA has procedures which must be followed and the ED needs to
be aware of them and follow through with the paperwork as soon as
possible. These are spelled out in the AMA Manual which will be sent
to the ED.
I. Notification of site -usually in October
A. PAMPA representative invited to attend -ED recommended to
be representative
1. Layout of site presented
2. Supplemental instructions to be presented by
representative for publication by AMA
a. Any changes in format should be agreed upon by
president/directors/membership during previous
year- not arbitrarily made at NATS site.
b. Arrange for Appearance judging site on Tuesday
and announcement of a 3:00 p.m. start time
3. Arrange for PAMPA Headquarters (hotel)
a. Arrange for a block of rooms (estimate 30-40) to
be held for PAMPA members -negotiate for AMA
rates or PAMPA rates
b. Arrange Banquet facilities -consider costs for
adults and children, time, place and facility.
c. Submit to PAMPA Newsletter as soon as possible
with hotel name, address, phone number, room
rates
(1) Include listing of other available hotels,
phone numbers and rates
II. AMA contact with ED
A. AMA Category Director will contact ED early in year with a
list of supplies available from AMA and a request for any
additional supplies required by ED. The Category Director
can requisition these from AMA
B. Receipt of AMA manual/issued to ED
1. Read thoroughly
a. Format for procedures
b. Procedures for protests
c. AMA policies for unofficial events
d. Deadline
e. Information sheets to be mailed to AMA
2. Fill out proper forms and mail to AMA as soon as
possible
3. Retain AMA manual and bring to NATS
C. AMA will send a form for ED to order a special shirt with
"Precision Aerobatics Event Director" and NATS logo on it.
Return form to AMA as soon as possible. Purpose of
providing the shirt is for identification to the contestants
and other official (i.e. facilities people, etc.)
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 3

NATS Budget
Establishing the budget for running Precision Aerobatics at the
NATS is fairly straight forward. The monies allocated for this event
are discussed and scheduled with the assistance of the AMA Category
Director. This procedure is generally done at the preliminary meeting
that takes place at the flying site which occurs in October.
The budget is set up under two categories, one being per diem and
the other travel reimbursement. In the following schedules you will
find dollar amounts assigned but these may very from year to year.
REIMBURSEMENT SCHEDULE
Category Number Per Diem Subtotal Travel(b)
Judge 12 5 days @ $10 50x10=$600 *
Recorders (a) 12 4 days @ $10 40x12=$480
Event Director 1 5 days @ $10 $100 *
Assistant E.D. 1 5 days @ $10 $ 50 *
Tabulator 1 5 days @ $10 $ 50 *
Asst.Tabulator 1 5 days @ $10 $ 50
pit Crew 2 5 days @ $10 50x 2=$100
$1430 $1570 (c)
(a) Some judges may not want recorders. Since 12 recorders have
been budgeted those not required may become runners which
can use this reimbursement. Runners greatly help the
tabulators keep up with the flood of score sheets and
deserve some lodging assistance.
(b) Travel reimbursement is an incentive to acquire people with
special skills or experience. Usually this amount is
limited to $1570 total ($3000.00 budget -$1430 per diem =
$1570 travel). A rule of thumb is to use the following
distance guide line in assigning travel allowances:
<400 miles = $50
>400<800 miles = $100
>800<2000 miles = $150
>2000 miles = $200
The mode of travel should not influence this (i.e. airplane
vs. auto).
(c) Under certain circumstances this amount may have to be
exceeded in all fairness to the number of long distance judges or
other officials. (Example: the NATS are in some particular corner of
the country such as Tri-Cities, WA and 5 or 6 judges have distances
great than 2000 miles. This will take up most of the budget leaving
very little left to divide among the remaining judges.) Concurrence
from the Control Line Category Manager is required ahead of time
before each judge is told what reimbursement he/she can expect. ~
they are told fin writina\. it becomes absolute. Miscommunication,
verbal promises, and changes have caused hurt feelings in the past.
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 4

I NATS MANPOWER REQUIREMENTS I
1 EVENE~TOR I I ASST. EVE1RECTOR I
CLPAJUDGES CLPATABULATORS
12 REQUIRED 3 REQUIRED
PIT BOSSES
2 REQUIRED
RUNNERS
4 REQUIRED
RECORDERS
7 REQUIRED
OLD TIME STUNT JUDGES
2 REQUIRED
I OLD TIMLuNT E.Q. I
OLD TIME/NOST ALGIA
TABULATORS
OLD TIME/NOSTALGIA 2 REQUIRED
PIT BOSS
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 5

Trophies
I. Trophies -determine who has the perpetual trophies and how th§y
plan to get them to the NATS site
A. Perpetual Trophies
1. Old-time Stunt trophy
2. Senior Championship trophy
3. Junior Championship trophy
4. Walker Cup trophy
B. Additional trophies which can be gathered before hand
1. Pachyderm Award -goes to the highest ranking flier
with the worst memory for pattern or preparation of
airplane
a. Design of this trophy is up to ED's imagination
2. Rookie of the year
3. Concours d'Elegance -contact Arlie Preszler. (phone #
(209)369-5701). He will provide a large wooden prop
with emblem.
a. Contact Arlie as soon as possible so manufacture
and shipment can be made
b. Shipment is made to AMA NATS Headquarters
C. AMA Trophies
1. Contact AMA a month or two before NATS to order AMA
trophies
a. trophies for top 10 finishers in Open
b. trophies for top 10 finishers in Advance
c. trophies for top 3 finishers in Senior (you can
hold off on this order in order to have only what
is needed made up in case fewer than 3
competitors show up)
d. trophies for top 3 finishers in Junior (you may
want to hold this order also)
2. Those not paid for by AMA will be paid for by PAMPA if
not covered by a sponsor
a. Contact PAMPA Secretary or President for
authorization and money
b. AMA has a formula that determines how many
trophies they will supply at their expense which
depends upon the total number of entries for
Stunt
-ri
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide :, Page 7

Supplies
I. Supplies from AMA -to be picked up from AMA NATS Headquarters
(larger items will be delivered to flying site by AMA
A. Complete list in AMA Manual
B. Equipment to mend flying circles and to paint circles on
tarmac
C. Walkie-talkie for communication with NATS Headquarters -be
sure to get instructions for use
D. Score sheets (2500 minimum)
II. Supplies from PAMPA -usually shipped to ED prior to NATS (said
supplies should be held by PAMPA Pres., Vice-Pres., or Secretary
and shipped to ED as soon as possible. After NATS these supplies
can be handed to the following year's ED if already appointed and
in attendance)
A. Tabulation supplies
1. ball point pens (2 boxes)
2. 4 printing calculators
3. rubber bands
4. paper clips
5. ceramic bricks to hold down paperwork at desk
6. calculator paper
7. batteries for calculators
8. 2 staplers/staples
9. 14 or more clipboards for judges and pit crew
B. Others
1. pull test equipment -micrometers and scales
2. Calipers
3. Scoreboard score sheets
4. Concours d'Elegance ballots
5. 100' measuring tape
C. Check out all items prior to start of NATS to insure all are
in proper working order and that required supplies are in
place
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 8

NATS Timetable
Upon arrival at NATS site the following timetable should be
implemented.
I. Prior to Tuesday
A. Check over flying site with the AED and the Category
Director or the Assistant Category Director
B. Get equipment from AMA
C. prepare flying site as soon as possible so it can be used by
competitors for practice
1. When developing the pit area(s) make sure to draw
three parallel lines
a. one line for the center line of all airplanes
b. one line for minimum line length
c. one line for maximum line length
D. Confirm banquet facilities for Saturday evening or assign
someone to handle this job
E. Select appearance judges (consider using judges from other
events such as scale or pylon judges)
F. Prepare sign-up sheet for Banquet
G. Assist with finding fliers to perform for judges' training
sessions. Ask Head Judge how many he wishes to use; they
should be of varying caliber (i.e. Open, Advanced, Junior
and Senior)
1. Flyers are ~ to receive the score sheets
2. Flyers are ~ to participate in judging discussions -
this includes coaches and/or mechanics
11. Tuesday
A. Assign pilots to circles
1. 2 circles for Open fliers
2. 2 circles for Advance fliers
B. Appearance point judging
1. Concours balloting (Pilots' vote for most beautiful
airplane)
2. Pilots'meeting
C. Score sheet preparation for following day's flying (see
Tabulator's Manual)
D. Post pertinent information on hotel room doors (ED, AED,
Tabulator) and at AMA Headquarters such as time and place of
Appearance judging; starting time of competition (generally
8:00 a.m.) on Wednesday; and PAMPA membership meeting time
I and place. Be sure to include the circles and flight order
for Wednesdav's and Thursdav's flvinq as soon as it has been
made official. This will have to be p:osted after ap:p:earance
iudging. Also post special items on scoreboard at flying
site.
111. Wednesday
A. Two rounds of qualifying for Open and Advanced fliers
B. Score sheet preparation for following day (see Tabulator's
manual)
IV. Thursday
A. Two rounds of qualifying for Open and Advanced fliers

March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 9 11

1. Select top 20 Open fliers for semi-finals
2. Select top 20 Advanced fliers for finals
B. First round draw for top 20 Open fliers on two circles, top
20 Advanced fliers on two circles
C. Get Sig Card sheets from AMA for Junior and Senior
competitors
1. Assign them a Sth circle and draw for flight order
D. Score sheet preparation for the following day
E. Pampa membership meeting
v. Friday
A. Process Junior and Senior competitors as soon as possible
and assign appearance points to their airplanes
B. Selection of top S Open fliers
C. Selection of Advanced champion, Jr. champion and Sr.
champion.
D. First round draw for top S Open fliers combined with Jr. and
Sr. Champions for the National Champion and Walker Cup
Champion
E. Score sheet preparation for the following day
VI. Saturday
A. Selection of National Champion and Walker Cup winner
B. Make sure all AMA folders containing Sig Cards and white
score sheets with tapes attached are returned to AMA
Headquarters as soon as possible after competition.
C. Banquet and presentation of awards
D. Made sure all trophy recipients fill out AMA forms and
return them to you. They are to be handed into AMA
Headquarters.
VII. Sunday
A. Sort and complete all paperwork
B. Return all AMA items to AMA Headquarters
C. Turn into AMA all appropriate paperwork

~ March 1, 1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 10

NATS COMPETITION SUMMARY
DAY/CLASS COMPETITION SCHEDULE
UESDAY
O en/Advanced A in /Concours Ballotin /Pilots' Meetin
No. of Judges Attempts/ Results
Circles Official
qualifying) Seeded pilots 2 or 3 3 attempts Highest score carried to Thursday
Open 2 spread equally per circle for
Advanced 2 2 official
HURSDA Y Best score added to Wednesday's best.
(2nd day of op 10 Open from each circle qualify for
qualifying) Seeded Pilots 2 or 3 3 attempts top 20.
Open 2 spread equally per circle for op 10 Advance pilots from each circle
Advanced.. 2 2 official qualify for Advance Finals.
Remaining pilots' final placings determined
b % rankin .
FRIDAY S 3 or 4
per circle
Open Top 20 2 2 groups of 10 3 attempts op 5 qualify for Walker Cup Fly-off.
fly one official for 2 official Remaining flyers placed by total score.
flight on each (both scores

2 groups of 10 3 attempts Placing determined by single high score.
2 fly one official for 2 official
flight on each (best score

All pilots fly 3 attempts Placing determined by single high score.
1 together for r. Champ and Sr. Champ advance to
2 official Walker Cu fi off.
1 All pilots fly 6 4 attempts Open placing 1 st through Sth.
together (Discard for 3 official Walker Cup awarded Jr.!Sr. or Open
high and (best two Champion based on flight scores only.
low scores count

Format for NATS
Tuesday
I: A. Pick up final list of registrants from AMA headquarters
:1: around 12 noon. This list usually comes in a folder with
1'; "SIG CARDS" bearing the names of all the registered
contestants. If the SIG CARDS are not ready get a computer
print out of all registered contestants from them.
B. By 12:30 p.m. begin circle assignments of all competitors
for Wednesday and Thursday (See Seeding Section in this
manual)
C. Make copies of individual circles with seeded Dilots names
in alQhabeti~al order. Do not put in any flight order.
First round can be drawn at appearance judging and the
scramble method (see the Scramble Guide section in this
manual) can be used after that.
1. If there is time have a conference with the head judge
regarding the capabilities of the judges and seed them
accordingly on the various circles. Tabulator must
have list of judges for processing score sheets. (See
Judges' Seeding section in this manual)
D. Appearance judging
1. Location arranged by AMA
2. Establish time to begin with AMA (preferably at 3:00
p.m.) Allow for about 30 minutes to get all pilots
and planes in the room
3. Make sure Appearance judges are prepared and on time
4. Get to the appearance judging site at least 20 minutes
before or send a representative to hand out the
Concours ballots as each pilot enters to place his
airplane on the floor
! 5. Place sheets designating circles and seeded fliers on
tables for contestants viewing
6. pilots should enter room one at a time and Concours
ballots handed to them as they enter
a. Those included in the appearance judging and
Concours voting are all Open fliers; all Advanced
fliers; and any Junior and Senior fliers who wish
to participate.
(1) Points awarded to Jr./Sr. airplanes are
used for Advanced competition only.
Contestants flying in Jr./Sr. competition
must be judged on Friday before competition
begins.
b. pilots should also be informed that :
(1) a pilots' meeting will take place during
the appearance judging
(2) That circle assignments are not official
until appearance judging is completed
(a) you need to determine which pilots
have shown up and balance the circles
accordingly remembering to allow for
Advanced fliers and Open fliers who
may not have shown up
c. Allow one half hour for the Concours voting and
picture taking and then usher all pilots out of
-.-
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 12

the room for the appearance judging. Make sure
they hand in their Concours ballots to the
tabulator before exiting.
7. Usher all pilots out of the room and begin appearance
judging
a. Utilize this time for pilots' meeting
8. when the judging is completed the airplanes should be
arranged in order of their appearance points. Place
sheets at the side of each row of planes designating
the number of appearance points awarded for those
planes in that row. These should remain in position
until the pilots come to retrieve their planes.
9. Tabulator should have made up a list of contestants
AMA numbers in numerical order.
a. When appearance judging is complete take the list
and put the assigned appearance points along side
of each AMA number
b. Check to make sure that all airplanes have been
judged- the blanks left on your sheet will
indicate those pre-registered contestants who
will no~ participate in the competition and those
not on the list may be late entrants or Juniors
and Seniors
c. Always remember to keep the circles balanced as
to the number of fliers per circle and their
respective abilities.
10. Have the pilots return for drawing of flight order and
to retrieve their airplanes.
11. Draw for first round flight order for wednesday
a. Whatever method you have selected for the drawing
of the flight order for the first round it will
simplify matters if you have someone (tabulator
or assistant) actually do the drawing rather than
the pilots themselves. Getting them to come
forward can be difficult if they are deep in
conversation or not available at that moment.
b. Fill in the flight order on the sheets made out
with the circle assignments
c. Leave the finalized sheets on display until you
are ready to depart
12. Hold pilot's meeting while appearance judging is going
on. Discuss:
a. Any rule changes
b. Builder of the model rule
c. Line lengths and pull test requirements
d. Description of flying site (layout of circles and
pits)
e. Starting time
f. Handling of attempts
g. Engine starting -use of helpers
h. Ground rules -weather, site problems
E. Be sure to fill in the remaining flight order for Round 2 of
wednesday and Thursday's rounds I and 2 using the scramble
guide before giving them to the tabulator to use while
setting up score sheets.
F. Have tabulator make up copies of circles/flight order to
"
,"
March 1, 1994 Nats CLP A ED Guide Page 13 ,

post on the various doors and at AMA Headquarters.
G. Be sure tabulator has necessary items for setting up all the
score sheets and the AMA folders contain the Sig Cards as
well as the appearance points sheet. (See Tabulator's
Manual)
H. Notify tabulator where to place "10 minute break" sheets on
the rounds of score sheets (i.e. if we have 10 competitors
per circle you should have a "10 minute break" after the 5th
flier and a "20 minute lunch break" after the first round)
I. When the tabulator's work is done that evening pack all
necessary items including the scoreboard sheets and all
organized score sheets to take with you on Wednesday
morning. (The tabulator should not need to arrive as early
as the ED/AED but you will need the judges' clip boards
available and all other pertinent equipment to get things
started.)
J. Fill out large sheets for flying site scoreboard.
K. Make sure there is a stop watch for each circle and someone
assigned to it. One with an alarm and that counts backwards
is preferred to check for over runs.
11. Wednesday
A. Get to flying site early enough to make sure all items are
set up (tabulator's tent and tables, score board with score
sheets mounted).
B. Be available during judges' training session
C. Distribute necessary items to workers as well as judges'
clipboards.
D. Begin competition as close to 8:00 a.m. as possible
E. Designate yourself or AED to post scores on score board
1. Should be able to write legibly
2. Must stay close to tabulator's table to post scores as
quickly as possible.
F. The pilots will compete on the same circle for both rounds
of flying
G. Upon completion of day's competition collect all equipment
including score board sheets.
H. Tabulator should return to room to post the day's scores on
the Sig Cards and complete paperwork for the next day's
competition (See Tabulator's Manual)
111. Thursday -Although you will follow the basic format of
Wednesday's competition there will be an added amount of work
which should be done at the flying site as soon as the scores are
all posted.
A. The pilots will fly on opposite circles from the previous
day's flying. Always move the Dilots not the ~iudqes .
B. Sometime after noon get the folders from AMA that contain
the Sig Cards for the Junior and Senior competitors
C. As the final round's scores are posted use an adding machine
to add the pilot's best score from Wednesday with his best
score from Thursday (underline those two scores). Put the
total in the column at the right under totals.
D. After all totals are posted select the top20 Open fliers
(take the 10 highest scorers from each circle) and put
asterisks at the right of their totals.
March 1, 1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 14

E. Do the same for the top 20 Advanced fliers. Designate with
asterisks.
F. On Friday the top 20 Open fliers, in two groups of 10, will
fly two flights on two separate circles. The same will
apply to the top 20 Advanced fliers on their two circles.
You will need to seed the flyers. (Use a note pad for all
this and when you return to your room you can fill out the
scoreboard sheets.
1. Take the highest scoring pilot and place on Circle One
and the next highest on Circle two alternating in this
fashion until you've completed seeding the 20 pilots.
2. The 20 Advanced pilots will fly on another set of
circles and will need to be seeded also.
3. The Juniors and Seniors will use another circle for
their competition.
G. Draw Round 1 flight order for Friday for the four circles
and use the Scramble for Round 2
H. Select pilots to fly for the judges training session the
next morning
After Returning to Room
I. Fill out scoreboard sheets for Friday
J. Designate which circles will be used by the top 20 Open
fliers, the top 20 Advanced fliers and the Jr./Sr.
competitors
K. Prior to tabulator starting the score sheets get together
with the Head Judge and determine what judges will work on
the circles with the Open fliers and which ones will be
working on the Advanced circles and the Senior/Junior
circle.
L. Rank the Open fliers from 21st on down and post that on the
various hotel room doors and at AMA Headquarters (See
Ranking Section in this manual)
M. Rank the Advanced fliers in the same manner as the Open from
21st place on down and post
N. Ask PAMPA President if you should give a report at the
Director's meeting held prior to Membership meeting
0. Attend Membership meeting if at all possible
P. Be sure to line up all items to take to site on Friday
morning.
Q. Attempt to have the Junior and Senior Perpetual trophies
brought to the flying site on Friday morning as well as the
Advanced Championship trophy. Display them at tabulator
tent.
IV. Friday
A. Judge all Jr. and Sr. airplanes for appearance points prior
to competition (including those entered in Tuesday's
appearance judging) and give points to tabulator.
B. Start the day the same as before.
C. TOD 20 fliers will fly one round on one circle and their
second round on the other circle. You move the Dilots not
the judges!
D. Advanced fliers will fly one round on one circle and their
second round on the other circle and Juniors and Seniors
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 15
..
I
will fly both rounds on the same circle.
E. Final Scores
1. Top 20 Open fliers will have their two scores for the
day added together. Select the five highest scorers
and place asterisks at the right of their totals.
Rank 6th through 20th and place those rankings to the
left of their totals using those specific totals.
2. The to 20 Advanced fliers will have their highest
score of the two rounds for their final score. The
highest scorer of the two rounds is the winner and
ranking is from Ist through 20th according to their
scores.
3. The Juniors and Seniors will also take their highest
score of the two rounds as a final score and be ranked
accordingly. There is a Junior Champion and a Senior
Champion.
F. Draw for Round 1 for Saturday's competition of the top five
Open fliers and the Junior and Senior Champions. Use the
scramble method for rounds 2 and 3.
G. Ask the 6th placing flier to fly for the judges at their
morning training session on Saturday morning. You might ask
the 7th placing flier also and have them fly one round each
for the judges.
After Returninq to Room
H. Have a meeting with the Head judge and tabulator to
determine the number of judges needed for Saturday's flying
and who they should be. The tabulator should be able to
tell you how they are doing since apart of his/her job
should be tracking them. To get a real good idea of who is
consistent it's worth taking the time to graph each judge
throughout the competition. (Don't use more than 6 or 7
judges -remember the tabulators have to add up all those
score sheets and the circle is only so big.) Because of the
subjective style of judging it is necessary for the
tabulator to take out the high and low judge before
averaging the scores together on Saturday. Take the time to
remind the tabulator of this procedure.
I. Give the tabulator the information necessary for making up
the score sheets for Saturday's flying (pilots, flight order
for all three rounds, and judges to be used)
J. Fill out score board sheets for Saturday's competition
K. Post on the various hotel room doors and at AMA Headquarters
the final rankings of the 6th Open flier on down, the winner
and remaining ranked Advanced fliers, the winner and
rankings of the Junior competition and same for the Senior
competition.
L. Post the rounds for Saturday's competition.
M. Once again, collect all items which need to go to the flying
site on Saturday morning.
N. Find the Walker Cup and make arrangements to have it at the
tabulator's table on Saturday.
0. Make arrangements for champagne to be available during
presentation of the Walker Cup at the flying site for the
traditional pouring on the head of the winner.
March 1, 1994 Nats CLP A ED Guide Page 16

P. Notif s who will be workin on Saturda .
v. Saturday
A. At flying site
1. Begin as usual
2. scoring
a. Open fliers
(1) As the third round is being posted take the
time to add together the best two rounds
for each pilot and place the total in it's
appropriate column.
b. Jr./Sr. fliers
(1) Their scores should not include appearance
points. Even though they fly with the Open
fliers they only compete for the Walker Cup
and the tradition of the fly-off is not to
include appearance points.
c. Walker Cup
(1) After determining the National Champion you
take his/her total score and deduct his
appearance points from that score.
(2) Compare the Open Champion's score with
those of the Senior Champion and the Junior
Champion to determine the Walker Cup
winner.
ii 3. At completion of competi tion make sure tabulator
it finishes all the AMA required paperwork and one of you
turn it into AMA Headquarters as soon as possible.
(See Tabulator's Manual)
4. Fill out and distribute to your workers all the
required papers and cards that AMA needs in order to
pay them.
5. Collect all items that need to be sorted out and
return AMA's items on Saturday afternoon or Sunday.
AMA will pick up the big items such as the tables,
tent, scoreboard, and chairs, etc.
B. Banquet
" 1. Head table should include ED, AED, PAMPA Officers,
'!! Control Line Category Director, and any dignitaries
i' 2. Opened by PAMPA President or designee
:.!1 3. Introduction of guests/workers/etc.
!i! a. Head judge should introduce all judges and their
I.,h.
1!1 geograp J.ca area
"
!:1 b. Include AED, all pi t people, tabulators I
I recorders, runners
I; 4. Presentation of trophies by ED
: a. Presentation of trophies for unofficial events
:1 may be given out by the director of said event.

: March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 17

Seedinq Process
In order to have eaually balanced circles YOu need to seed to the
very last Dilot.
This is a relatively simple method and takes very little time.
You take the highest scoring pilot and put him/her in Circle One and
the next highest scoring pilot will then be placed in Circle Two.
Working backwards in your next position place the next highest scorer
in Circle 2 and the 4th highest in Circle 1. The Sth highest scorer
will then go into circle 1 and the 6th will go in Circle 2. Continue
in this fashion until all pilots are seeded.
Seedinq Judges
Another aspect of the seeding process is to seed the judges as
much as possible. Try not to let flying buddies/fathers and
sons/husbands and wives judge each other if at all possible. You will
need to get together with the Head Judge and determine how each judge
scores, whether he/she is consistently high or consistently low. When
seeding the judges for qualifying days you should aim for mixing high
and low judges as much as possible. The tabulator can also keep tabs
on the judges throughout the competition. If a problem should develop
you do not change judges during qualifying. However, you can make a
mental note of the problem and decide where to place that judge on day
3 and whether or not to use him/her on day 4.
Another thing to consider is to have a geographical
representation on each circle if at all possible. Such as one judge
from the West coast working with another judge from the East and one
from the South or North.
A good method to use for initial seeding of judges is to have
them put their names on their practice sheets during Tuesday's
training session and collect them at the end of the session. You can
then use these to track the judges and aid in your placement of them.
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 18

-
Ranking System
Open pilots -from 21st place on down
Take the highest score from each circle and divide that into the
scores of those pilots in that circle who did not qualify for the top
twenty. This will give you a percentage point. Set calculator to
include at least 4 decimal points. You must do this with each circle
of fliers remembering to use the top qualifying score from each circle
and dividing it into those scores from that circle that did not
qualify and then take ~ the percentages and place them in numerical
order. This will give you your ranking.
Advanced pilots -from 21st on down
You will follow the same method as above.
.,-
March 1,1994 Nats CLPA ED Guide Page 19
.

This needs to be put into Stunt News. The one I think should be considered most is the BOM. We have appearance points, which I think everybody should get. ARF;s can be dressed up a little or a lot. Make an additional 20 points if you are the builder of a kit or from plans. The ARF is already about 90% complete. The ARC is more than 50% complete, agreed. So lets award the builder with extra points.DOC

>This needs to be put into Stunt News. The one I think
>should be considered most is the BOM.

I disagree. It has the ability to bog everything down in its wake. I would address it last. There will be rules proposal in the next rules cycle for the BOM, address it then.

It appears that a lot of thought has gone into this proposal. I take it you have nothing on the building board?? LOL.
So, submit them.

>>Contest Procedures- how to run the circle(s), how to assign
>>flyers, and judges, time considerations, etc. Ideally, the
>>same procedures would work for any size contest so that the
>>nature of the competition does not change.
>
>I am proposing that there should be a Nats Section for the
>AMA CLPA rulebook. It would outline specific procedures for
>all of the things you have mentioned. I would advocate
>simply publishing the current procedures with some tweaks to
>make the procedure is a rule and not a suggestion. I would
>feel that only the procedures that directly effect the
>ability of the flier to score should be in the actual rules.
> This would include some if not all of the following:
>
>1. Circle layout (markers, etc).
>2. Contest format (the current format should stand up
>nicely).
>3. Circle assignment for fliers.
>4. Circle assignment for judges.
>5. Method for determining judging performance (if
>nessessary).
>6. Warm up flight procedures.
>7. Judges training (minimum requirements)?
>8. Appearance judging procudures (Trostle did a good
>preliminary version of this, with tweaking it could be
>published).
>9. BOM (this will be addressed in the General Control line
>section, but there could be Nats specific rules).
>
>
>I feel that a Nats section could serve as a template for any
>contest if a CD chose to use it. In that way the standard
>Nats format would be the highest standard of the land.
>
>When choosing whether a procedure should be a rule, I use
>the mantra, "if it could effect the score of a flier, it
>should be in the rulebook."
>
>FYI: This is a rough scan of the PAMPA Nats Procedures
>Guide written by Keith Trostle. It is the only Nats
>procedure set I can find that has ever been written down, at
>least in recent times. The new Nats section in the rulebook
>would replace all outside manuals.
>
> CONTENTS
>NATIONALS EVENT DIRECTOR'S MANUAL
>Page
>Pre NATS Timetable 1
>Selection of Workers. 1
>Assistant Event Director. 1
>Head Judge/ Judges. 1
>Tabulator. 1
>pit Bo s s ( e s ) 2
>Others. 2
>AMA Procedures. 3
>NATS Budget. 4
>NATS Manpower Requirements. 5
>Trophies. 7
>Supplies. 8
>NATS Timetable 9
>NATS Competi tion Summary. 11
>NATS Forma t 12
>Tuesday. 12
>Wednesday. 14
>Thursday. 14
>Fr iday 15
>saturday. 17
>Seeding Proces s 18
>Seeding Judges. 18
>Ranking System. 19
>Judges List. 2 O
>Flight Order Scramble Guide. 22
>Form Let ters 30
>

Lets be real careful about what goes in the RB. Some of this time table stuff and suggestions on how to get what done when and who to talk to should stay right here in the well prepared document.

But that which can affect a score needs to be in the RB.

>IV. Friday
>A. Judge all Jr. and Sr. airplanes for appearance points
>prior
>to competition (including those entered in Tuesday's
>appearance judging) and give points to tabulator.
>B. Start the day the same as before.
>C. TOD 20 fliers will fly one round on one circle and their
>second round on the other circle. You move the Dilots not
>the judges!
>D. Advanced fliers will fly one round on one circle and
>their
>second round on the other circle and Juniors and Seniors
>I
>will fly both rounds on the same circle.
>E. Final Scores
>1. Top 20 Open fliers will have their two scores for the
>day added together. Select the five highest scorers
>and place asterisks at the right of their totals.
>Rank 6th through 20th and place those rankings to the
>left of their totals using those specific totals.
>2. The to 20 Advanced fliers will have their highest
>score of the two rounds for their final score. The
>highest scorer of the two rounds is the winner and
>ranking is from Ist through 20th according to their
>scores.
>3. The Juniors and Seniors will also take their highest
>score of the two rounds as a final score and be ranked
>accordingly. There is a Junior Champion and a Senior
>Champion.
>F. Draw for Round 1 for Saturday's competition of the top
>five
>Open fliers and the Junior and Senior Champions. Use the
>scramble method for rounds 2 and 3.
>G. Ask the 6th placing flier to fly for the judges at their
>morning training session on Saturday morning. You might ask
>the 7th placing flier also and have them fly one round each
>for the judges.
>After Returninq to Room
>H. Have a meeting with the Head judge and tabulator to
>determine the number of judges needed for Saturday's flying
>and who they should be. The tabulator should be able to
>tell you how they are doing since apart of his/her job
>should be tracking them. To get a real good idea of who is
>consistent it's worth taking the time to graph each judge
>throughout the competition. (Don't use more than 6 or 7
>judges -remember the tabulators have to add up all those
>score sheets and the circle is only so big.) Because of the
>subjective style of judging it is necessary for the
>tabulator to take out the high and low judge before
>averaging the scores together on Saturday. Take the time to
>remind the tabulator of this procedure.
>I. Give the tabulator the information necessary for making
>up
>the score sheets for Saturday's flying (pilots, flight order
>for all three rounds, and judges to be used)
>J. Fill out score board sheets for Saturday's competition
>K. Post on the various hotel room doors and at AMA
>Headquarters
>the final rankings of the 6th Open flier on down, the winner
>and remaining ranked Advanced fliers, the winner and
>rankings of the Junior competition and same for the Senior
>competition.
>L. Post the rounds for Saturday's competition.
>M. Once again, collect all items which need to go to the
>flying
>site on Saturday morning.
>N. Find the Walker Cup and make arrangements to have it at
>the
>tabulator's table on Saturday.
>0. Make arrangements for champagne to be available during
>presentation of the Walker Cup at the flying site for the
>traditional pouring on the head of the winner.
>March 1, 1994 Nats CLP A ED Guide Page 16
>
>P. Notif s who will be workin on Saturda .
>v. Saturday
>A. At flying site
>1. Begin as usual
>2. scoring
>a. Open fliers
>(1) As the third round is being posted take the
>time to add together the best two rounds
>for each pilot and place the total in it's
>appropriate column.
>b. Jr./Sr. fliers
>(1) Their scores should not include appearance
>points. Even though they fly with the Open
>fliers they only compete for the Walker Cup
>and the tradition of the fly-off is not to
>include appearance points.
>c. Walker Cup
>(1) After determining the National Champion you
>take his/her total score and deduct his
>appearance points from that score.
>(2) Compare the Open Champion's score with
>those of the Senior Champion and the Junior
>Champion to determine the Walker Cup
>winner.

They dont follow this part anymore. They have Jr Sr on Sat and and the champs fly against the Open champ for the Big Honker.

Again, these are all issues for the AMA rules cycle. So, exercise your own writing abilities and submit your proposals to AMA next year with the beginning of the rules cycle and take your chances. These are not PAMPA issues, these are strictly AMA issues.

I finally figured out my problem: After 45 years as an athlete and coach (many, many rules) the advice of an old great coach has always stuck. Keep your rules simple or they will burn you.
I guess I just ain't anal retentive enough to get into all the rules change necessities. I fly the occasional Nats, and a lot of local contests. I just haven't seen the problems that many complain about.
Now if there was a money set up with bonuses going to each contestant for each round of advancement, maybe I could get into it more.
Send in the proposals guys and live with the vote. Each of us can't have it our way all the time. And yes, it does sound like there has been a "little" spoiling of some of us while we were younger.
If you're good enough, you will eventually win the Walker Trophy and maybe the Walker Cup, too. (let's at least refer to them correctly)
Bill <><

No, please stop. If you had a good rules proposal you should have submitted it during the last rules cycle. If you have a good proposal, lets hear it when the next rules cycle begins. This off year, continuous, contentious talk about rules amounts to little more than mental masturbation. Can't we wait a bit, at least until the beginning of the next rules cycle, to begin the process of completely rewriting and changing our event beyond recognition?

Who is talking about changing anything beyond recognition? Fixing ambiguities and mistakes? Giving the judges, the most important people in the event, clear guidance so they don't have to discuss how to do their job every meet? Including commonly used procedures that can affect the outcome so they don't change willy nilly?

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-04 AT 07:51 PM (CST)
 
Phil,

I will say it again, "Again, these are all issues for the AMA rules cycle. So, exercise your own writing abilities and submit your proposals to AMA next year with the beginning of the rules cycle and take your chances. These are not PAMPA issues, these are strictly AMA issues." So, bank up your ideas, and then use them next year. But, until then, you are beginning to resemble a broken record.

>Phil,
>
>I will say it again, "Again, these are all issues for the
>AMA rules cycle. So, exercise your own writing abilities and
>submit your proposals to AMA next year with the beginning of
>the rules cycle and take your chances. These are not PAMPA
>issues, these are strictly AMA issues." So, bank up your
>ideas, and then use them next year. But, until then, you
>are beginning to resemble a broken record.

I think Phil is trying to start a dialogue. In the absense of dialogue about sweeping rules proposals, everyone will not be able to involve themselves at the beginning instead of at the end. In the spirit of teamwork, I think early dialogue is a swell idea.

It is my intention to work a proposal with Keith Trostle, if he will have me. I would think a year or so would be a good timeframe to hash out a Nats procedure suitable for the rulebook.

I really don't understand what this forum is for. I thought it was to discuss things just like this.

Thank you Brad. The time to discuss potential rules changes is anytime. while I have my own preferences for what might be good changes to the stunt rules, the goal here is to straighten out the ambiguities and discrepancies so confusing rules don't make problems. The point isn't to change the event. I can't see how purposely leaving ambiguities in the rules helps the event in any way. Not enforcing the rules as written is just as bad.

Doug's point is a good one. Why are there tolerances- 4-6 ft. , within two ft....., etc.)? What do they mean? How are the judges supposed to use them? Para. 9.1 says "degree of perfection" but other para.'s say that an error is "not within 2 ft" in many places, implying that if it is within 2 ft. there is no error. Do all these ambiguities do any good? Except allow for bad feelings and arguments and making the judges job even harder and lonlier?

It seems pretty obvious from an overall reading of the rules and the way the event has been flown over the years that the intent is that the pilot should try to fly the plane as close to the ideal path as possible for the whole flight- all the loops, level laps, etc., everything, is part of the presentation and should be judged for degree of perfection. Get rid of all the tolerances.

An alternate interpretation is that the tolerances were put in on purpose, so if the pilot keeps the plane within them the judges can reasonably give the maneuver a perfect score. But we almost never see perfect scores, except a few landings and takeoffs. If we as pilots don't know what we want, how the heck can we expect the juges to figure it out??

>In Texarkanne the judges just figure out how they want to judge it at >the pilots meeting and tell us all right then. Pretty simple and fair >to everyone.

This is a perfect example of the problem. What is normal level flight and how do you adapt it to the site. After 50 years of this there should be a way to do this. It shouldn't have to be discussed at nearly every meet for gosh sakes. There are at least three different ways to handle a sloping field. The rule book should explain the way to handle it.

Chris M's comment about wake is a good one. I happen to agree that an experienced pilot can improve both safety and his flight by stepping backwards during maneuvers. So figure out some way to properly describe the use of the pilot's circle and any penalties. In all the other events the pilot's circle is there, hard and fast, to make sure the pilots don't wander so far that the plane might endanger others or hit something. There are safety issues with the pilot's wandering around. There are also safety issues with pilot's crashing fairly big, heavy, expensive planes due to turbulence. At the Brodak meet somebody tossed a 60 engine into the crowd in Expert when they kissed the ground. I don't have all the answers, but we darn well should have rules clear enough that the contestant can read them through and think, "ah, that's how we do that safely...".

Once this thread gets a little longer I'll try to pull the issues together and maybe even put them into possible clarifications!!!

Isnt the new cycle starting in January?

One thing I think would help clear up alot of stuff and make it much easier on the judges is......ready....here goes............................................................................

REMOVE the 4'-6' and the 45 degrees plus or minus 2'. Make these set in stone. Like oh let's say 5' and 45degrees. Pretty simple and striaght forward. It takes away any guessing. "Well was he at 4' or 4'6" ohhhhh I just dont know....hummmmmmmm,,,,37 sounds good." Just make it too the point and leave it at that. I have never understood why there was such a varience...makes no since. The way inverted flight is written everyone in ADV and EXP should get 40s straight across the board.

4'-6' somewhere in there is the average shoulder height of the adult male. Fly at shoulder level for your bottoms. 45° +/- 2' same thing though it's a little weird to mix degrees and feet.

And yes, it is trying to start a dialouge. If the rules proposal just showed up with a complete new set of rules there is no way it would get a second look. What, he wrote a whole new set of rules by himself? Poppycock, NEXT!

>And yes, it is trying to start a dialouge. If the rules
>proposal just showed up with a complete new set of rules
>there is no way it would get a second look. What, he wrote
>a whole new set of rules by himself? Poppycock, NEXT!

On the nosey!!!! See, some do get it Phil and Doug!!!

The best way to gain acceptance is to include everyone as much as possible. Even though this is not proactical all the time.

>REMOVE the 4'-6' and the 45 degrees plus or minus 2'. Make
>these set in stone. Like oh let's say 5' and 45degrees.
>Pretty simple and striaght forward.

This sounds good, but for little people like kids, the lines wouldn't be parallel to the ground, and I've seen kids do well at two feet as their consistent bottoms. So if we are going to make it straightforward, that is one thing, if we are going to make it fair for all flyers, including juniors, we have to come up with a criteria that fits them too.

It takes away any
>guessing. "Well was he at 4' or 4'6" ohhhhh I just dont
>know....hummmmmmmm,,,,37 sounds good." Just make it too the
>point and leave it at that. I have never understood why
>there was such a varience...makes no since. The way
>inverted flight is written everyone in ADV and EXP should
>get 40s straight across the board.

How do you mean, Doug. They have to fly the two judged laps at exactly the same height to receive top points. Is it that one guy flies his two at 5 feet and the other guy at 6 feet that you think shouldn't be judged the same?

Chris,

The RB reads that inverted level flight is to be flown within the 4'-6' level flight. It says NOTHING about exact all the way through for both laps. Absolutely nothing about the two laps being perfect with no deviation.

About the shoulder height thing. As it stands now a flier flying a 2' no matter how tall he is is out of the parameteres. So chagning it to one height instead of a range wouldnt be any harder than now.

I do see your point. But the average height at the shoulder is 5' wouldnt you say so going for that as the final height would be fair. Besides it is not supposed to be about lines parallel to the ground. It is the height of the plane off of the ground it is flying over. We fly on a pretty sploped circle in Texarkanna and they tell us it is 4'-6' off the ground the plane is flying over.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-04 AT 01:12 AM (CST)
 
>Chris,
>
>The RB reads that inverted level flight is to be flown
>within the 4'-6' level flight. It says NOTHING about exact
>all the way through for both laps. Absolutely nothing about
>the two laps being perfect with no deviation.

That may very well be, but the way I am flying the inverted laps is to fly them exactly the same height. I wonder what the judges guidelines are?
>
>About the shoulder height thing. As it stands now a flier
>flying a 2' no matter how tall he is is out of the
>parameteres. So chagning it to one height instead of a
>range wouldnt be any harder than now.

Yes, but the height of the manuever bottoms could be written to correspond to the flyers height. Just a academic question really, though.
>
>I do see your point. But the average height at the shoulder
>is 5' wouldnt you say so going for that as the final height
>would be fair. Besides it is not supposed to be about lines
>parallel to the ground. It is the height of the plane off
>of the ground it is flying over. We fly on a pretty sploped
>circle in Texarkanna and they tell us it is 4'-6' off the
>ground the plane is flying over.

Now this is one I remember from the 89 Nats. The circles were sloped and the question was what constitutes level flight. I don't remember what the answer was though. This would be a definition that would take a lot of expert input to address to make it as agreeable as possible.

>That may very well be, but the way I am flying the inverted
>laps is to fly them exactly the same height. I wonder what
>the judges guidelines are?

I try to do the same. There arent any real guidelines on this one. There will be in the FAI guide I hope.

>Yes, but the height of the manuever bottoms could be written
>to correspond to the flyers height. Just a acedemic question
>really, though.

Yes and this would address the issue below as well.

>>
>>I do see your point. But the average height at the shoulder
>>is 5' wouldnt you say so going for that as the final height
>>would be fair. Besides it is not supposed to be about lines
>>parallel to the ground. It is the height of the plane off
>>of the ground it is flying over. We fly on a pretty sploped
>>circle in Texarkanna and they tell us it is 4'-6' off the
>>ground the plane is flying over.
>
>Now this is one I remember from the 89 Nats. The circles
>were sloped and the question was what consitutes level
>flight. I don't remember what the answer was though. This
>would be a definition that would take a lot of expert input
>to address to make it as agreeable as possible.
>
>Chris...

In Texarkanne the judges just figure out how they want to judge it at the pilots meeting and tell us all right then. Pretty simple and fair to everyone.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-04 AT 04:54 PM (CST)
 
Phil,

If making the flying fair and equally judged is the aim here, the models ability to produce wake must be admitted.

Models produce wingtip vortices that have sufficient strength to force the model out of control, or into the ground. This is fact. The wake will travel outwards and downwards if there is no wind. On a typical full sized airplane the rule of thumb for lateral travel is 5 mph. If the wind is 5 mph the upwind wake will remain stationary. Therefore the wake would remain in the path of a following airplane within the wakes energy time span. The wake will lose energy after a certain period.

The energy of wake from a model is conjecture here on my part, but my anecdotal experience is that a hard cornering large model has plent of wake energy to cause the model to crash downwards from 5 feet while performing consecutive squares and in nice easy inside or outside rounds to roll the model towards the pilot causing loss of line tension and departure from the pilots control.

These are negatives to safety and enjoyment of all concerned, and the idea of walking back is a good technique for avoiding wingtip vortices and the associated control problems.

Snip>Pilot's circle and use. A safety issue. People do wander and fly into light poles. A consequence for wandering is needed.<

I fly large models and they produce so much wake, that in calm conditions I walk back a step for each consecutive loop. After the loops are complete I step towards the circle center. Since walking back during a manuever keeps the model within the outer circle, there is no safety issue. After the completion of the wake avoidance technique, if the modeler returns to the circle after the last manuever and during the recovery to level laps, there would be no safety issue. Therefore in considering a pilot circle foul penalty for wandering, the controlled technique of wake avoidance by stepping back during, and walking back to center after, the manuever should not constitute a foul.

Hey Chris,
With a wandering penalty, how would Bear be able to fly??
Bill <><

>Hey Chris,
>With a wandering penalty, how would Bear be able to fly??
>
>Bill <><

He would be out of the contest on the first flight...

Phil,
Revamp all the maneuver definitions to eliminate ambiguities(variances, what exactly is included- is wind direction part of a maneuver?, etc.)
As far as wind direction being a part of the manuever, what are you trying to describe here?

LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-04 AT 05:26 PM (CST)
 
Hi Chris,
Since I am very rarely taken seriously, I have a few simple questions (not directly posed at you) that someone needs to address:

Senario:

We rewrite all the rules to remove all the ambiguities, get a uniform points deduction for all judges to use, and everyone is happy.
Now, are we naive enough to believe that a whole lot is going to change in the way contests are run, and judges score (Local or Nats)? What happens when judge A appears to have not followed the "guide" along with C, E, and G. Two very honest and consientious judges might not see the same errors to the same magnitude. We boot them from the Nats judging and replace them? Who do we get to replace them?

If the pioneers of PAMPA (and the rest of us who have been flying in contests for at least 10 years) have abided by,and flown by, these rules as they are presently written, why is there suddenly a problem of such outrageous magnitude?

I have put in my dialoge, and do not expect a reply. I have not been facetious in my other replies, but the questions/points I raise have not been considered nor addressed.

I say ask Mr. Werwage, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Fancher, Mr. Walker, Mr. Buck, Mr. Hunt, Mr. Rich, Mr. Smith, Mr. Urtnowski, Mr. Geiseke, Mr. Lee, and any other team members/top 5 fliers from the past 20 years as to whether or not a massive overhaul of the rules is really a need for consideration and consider their consensus.

No matter what level we are presently flying, we are all flying under the same rules. I believe these rules have been in place for more than a year, so is it that we must have changes if we don't do as well as he want to? That is what a lot of this rule change stuff sounds like. We leave out the part that every flier is a human being along with every judge, ED, CD, etc. We do not, nor will we ever, live in a perfect world.

Bill <><

I have been flying the modern stunt pattern in competition for a little more than 27 years and think it works pretty good. I would vigorously oppose any wholesale rerite. On the other hand there are some minor tweaks and clarifications which would be useful. Personally, I don't care enough to write up a rules change proposal. If the rules were perfect, we would lose an interesting topic of conversation. For example, remember when Doug Moon pointed out that losing a piece of your airplane in flight (so long as it was not the engine) did not DQ you, but rather turned your official into an attempt. I had never known that.

Back in the early 80's when I was on the CL Contest Board, a gentleman submitted a wholesale rules change proposal. He argued that stunt was losing popularity because it was unrealistic with the airplanes doing flat skidding truns. The core of his proposal was to have level flight at 45 degrees. He redesigned the pattern to leave the maneuvers about the same. His scheme was reprinted in Stunt News maybe 10 years ago. I tried it out and got completely disorientd. I voted against it (as did the rest of the CL CB). My basis was that it was unsafe. I wrote the gentleman to this effect, but never received a reply.

This is a cautionary tale for those who would make major change proposals.

Bill,
My other acro is IAC full scale aerobatics in which I fly Intermediate. My G load limited body is comfy right there in the middle, Intermediate for me. Besides the old timers say that Intermediate today is like Advanced 20 years ago.

In this venue of acro, we have rules changes all the time. Rewriting the book, fighting with CIVA, reorganizing the "Red Book", eliminating the "Red Book", new cataloug of manuevers, it goes on and on. I am the first guy to say I am a traditionalist, I want to see what the other guy does, watch what is going on and kind of fit in before I say much. I read the book, get prepared so I don't embarass myself, prep the airplane and get the logbooks in order, chute packed, licenses up to date, and then I arrive and keep an eye and ear out. See what the flow is, and go with it. For me, if I fly a contest and am able to fly three flights without getting a zero on at least one manuever, I have won in my own mind. I go compete for me first. The longtime members and FAI reps make all the rules, I just fly.

In stunt we will fly and the judges right down what they think, and it won't be any different if Walker and Cartier and Trostle write a new book. It might be a better book, but it'll still be a subjectively judged event, fraught with all the human frailty issues that we have when anything is judged by humans.

This CLPA rewrite might give some people something to do, and might hopefully promote a bunch of people to at least read the book. There are a few things that need clearing up, but if you do this long enough you'll notice that the winners really do fly the best, and really aren't handed the trophy because they are a "name".

(I am putting off the USA 1 because it is so labor intensive, I can't believe you sold yours. I am building another model for VSC, I hope I can go.

Thanks Jim and Chris,

I was beginning to wonder if I needed to change my deodorant.
I believe in the original purpose of PAMPA, and I have no problem with the rules as they stand now.

I would welcome some clearing up the rules in a couple places since some people just can't get what they mean, and that's ok. Make it clear where it needs to be clarified.

Chris, do you ever run into "Wingwalk"? He spent the weekend here a while back, really enjoyed it. Now I just got to get him to take me up in his Stearman! LOL!!

I have to build at least two, maybe three more USA-1s soon. I had an offer I really could not refuse for my last one.

Thanks,
Bill <><

As far as the pilot circle goes, does it have to have a penalty atached? The judges are watching the airplane, not the pilot. There are already rules for DQ for unsafe flying.

The diagrams and maneuver descriptions don't agree very well in many cases. The diagrams for the reverse wingover, inverted flight, and overhead eight show the wind direction. The descriptions don't mention it. So must the maneuvers be oriented as shown in the diagram or not? If you don't exactly follow the wind direction shown, how far off can you be and still get pattern points? What if the wind at the pilot is different than the wind at the judges?

Phil...
As usual, good point about the wind.
I feel that any reference to wind direction must be removed....
There shouldn't be a phrase like "maneuvers hsould be performed ABOUT downwind".....
Winds shift.
Judges don't....and what about biasing?
Or choosing to fly crosswind because downwind puts a blinding sun into the competitor's eyes?
The arrow and "fly downwind" were on all the Goldberg kits, weren't they? Now that Brodak has purchased Goldberg's controline stuff is that indicative of the vast conspiracy?
I forgot to buy one of your planes yesterday...

See Ya

You always brighten my day Rich. Still have a brand new slow combat for sale, flown about 6 times and never crashed. you missed the streak.

>Phil...
>As usual, good point about the wind.
>I feel that any reference to wind direction must be
>removed....

It is in there for orientation. It is only shown on diagrams where the circle orientation of the maneuver is vital.

>There shouldn't be a phrase like "maneuvers hsould be
>performed ABOUT downwind".....

Why not? What is the point of not referencing something that has a large dynamic effect on the model?

>Winds shift.

All the more reason to discuss wind in the case of controline stunt model airplane flying. Just because a subject may be hard to describe doesn't mean it should then be thrown out of the discussion and forgotten. The idea here is to make the rules better, is it not?

>Judges don't....

How come? Why should the dynamics of the varying medium have to be ignored because of some fixed objects.

and what about biasing?

Pilots choice, point and fly. The judges can run.

>Or choosing to fly crosswind because downwind puts a
>blinding sun into the competitor's eyes?

Pilots choice, point and fly...

>The arrow and "fly downwind" were on all the Goldberg kits,
>weren't they? Now that Brodak has purchased Goldberg's
>controline stuff is that indicative of the vast conspiracy?

What would John Brodak know about the Controline Precision Aerobatic Event?

>I forgot to buy one of your planes yesterday...
>
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-04 AT 02:02 AM (CST)
 
>The diagrams and maneuver descriptions don't agree very well
>in many cases. The diagrams for the reverse wingover,
>inverted flight, and overhead eight show the wind direction.
> The descriptions don't mention it.

I see what you are getting at. There are a lot of informational items in the diagram that mean things that aren't repeated in the text. The wind direction arrow seems to be there to show the orientation of the maneuver to the circle and judges as most usual conditions would warrant.

So must the maneuvers
>be oriented as shown in the diagram or not?

Normally they would. Especially on the wingover, what is shown is the optimum condition where the judges are dead up wind and the model is flying the maneuver as described. What would the point of showing anything else be?

If you don't
>exactly follow the wind direction shown, how far off can you
>be and still get pattern points?

Start writing, my man. How far off do you think? I'm curious how you think it should be written. I think it would be OK to leave it as a pilots choice with no mention of deductions or penalties. The model is the vehicle being flown in the invisible and dynamic medium of air. The judges sitting in one place should be of no consequence if the wind shifts and the maneuvers are flown right in front of them.

What if the wind at the
>pilot is different than the wind at the judges?

See above. Airplane is flown in varying medium, pilot flies in the circle quadrant where he is most able to safely control the model and complete the prescribed shape and sized of maneuver.

I'd just remove the arrows in the drawings. They aren't needed. That removes the ambiguities. The pilot already can point to where he is going to fly so the judges can move if necessary.