Bill Netzeband Question

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-04 AT 08:19 PM (CST)
 
Brett, Serge and others have mentioned the works of Bill Netzeband. I know he wrote articles for American Modeler in the early sixties and later I believe had a column in Model Airplane News. I do remember reading and in most cases re-reading his articles on the physics of CL.

My question..... Did he or anyone ever create a complete compendium of his articles written over time and in the various publications.
I would REALLY REALLY like to get it if it's been done.

It should be called "The Complete Works Of William Netzeband"

Dick;

I would do this if there is enough interest in the project. I think I have most of the magazines. This would include all his articles and construction articles.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-04 AT 09:41 PM (CST)
 
I have a lot of the older magazines but not all. I hate it when I come across one his enlighting articles and it starts, Last month we did part one of this article on ....... and quess what? I don't have that last month issue.

Obviously I'd be interested but the key word is complete or you'll have this problem.

Edited Part - I'm sorry Tom. When I re-read my post it sounded like I'm being critical, I'm not. I think it would be a great idea and if we could identify all of the articles he has written and gather up the copies of magazines etc. it could be a great project. Let me know how I might help. I have some of the articles from MAN. If you are missing any I might have them.

Tom:

You'd be doing us all a real service. His thoughts are priceless and as a person he's the ultimate "class act". Go for it!

I have in my file copies of the significant articles written by Bill Netzeband. This includes the 5 month series in MAN published in the 50's starting with How to Design a Stunt Ship. Then there was the series over 3 issues of American Aircraft Modeler or American Modeler. I have copies of these magazines. I also have copies of the various columns he wrote in AAM (Control Line Capers I think was the title of the monthly columns) and the Round-and-Round column in Man. There were many other articles he has written over the years since the 50's, with much of the information in those early articles still being pertinent today.

Also, available from the PAMPA Stunt News back issues, are the articles that Bill wrote for our newsletter, for which he received considerable complaints and criticism, all unwarranted, for being too technical. I can understand his frustrations and he quit writing for the newsletter. It is our loss.

Unfortunately, I am not at my home right now and will not be there for another week. Otherwise, I would give the magazines and dates for this material. My library also includes his design articles. One of those, of course, is the Half Fast which was good enough of a design to win the Senior Combat event at a Nats. Again, I do not have the material immediately available, but the winner was a young lady by the name of Shirly Ann Austin.

When I get back to my library, I will provide dates for all of this material.

Also, available from the PAMPA Stunt News back issues, are
>the articles that Bill wrote for our newsletter, for which
>he received considerable complaints and criticism, all
>unwarranted, for being too technical. I can understand his
>frustrations and he quit writing for the newsletter. It is
>our loss.

Hi Keith

That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince , you will most likley get criticism and complaints no matter what you write, technical or not....
I guess it is just a sign of the new times we live in.
I hope I see you in Tucson this year

Regards

>That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince
>, you will most likley get criticism and complaints no
>matter what you write, technical or not....

Really? I hadn't noticed...

LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-04 AT 10:48 PM (CST)
 
>
>>That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince
>>, you will most likley get criticism and complaints no
>>matter what you write, technical or not....
>
> Really? I hadn't noticed...
>
> Brett

Well! If you weren't so far above it all, you might take minute to...
Hey wait, a joke. I get it. Yeah sure

I will buy two copies of which ever style you do it in, ie; CD, book, paper back, files for a three hole binder, etc.

Guys; I have complete collections of Model Builder, Model Aviation, Model Airplane News ( up until they quit covering C/L and F/F in about 1984), Flying Models, American Aircraft Modeler, and if he ever published anything in AirTrails I have that from 1940 until it ceased publication. I would be happy to provide what ever I could to this project if it gets off the ground. I had the extreme pleasure of meeting Bill at VSC around 1994 or 1995 and sitting at the table with him at the banquet, along with Jack Sheeks. To say that was pretty cool is an understatement. I can't claim to understand everything he wrote, but you have to respect a mind that can think that deep, then do something for the fun of it just to see if it will work. He was flying this weird looking thing at VSC that at first glance just looked like a broken airplane to me! When I looked closer, it was a zig zag shaped flying wing. He said he got a letter from Larry Scarinzi, and Larry had a custom stamp for his return address on the envelope, and it has this big zig zag looking "s" or "z" and he thought, " I bet I could make that fly! ", and he did!!. I think it had an .049 or an .09 or something on it, but it did fly pretty well, and he presented it to Larry at the banquet that night.
I didn't mean to get long winded, but if I can help with this project I would very much like to.
Best Regards,
Dan McEntee

I would be glad to applaud, cheer on, and buy a copy.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-04 AT 09:32 AM (CST)
 
A couple of well known icons in CLPA and I have been discussing the pssibility of creating a compendium of PA "essentials" if you will. It would include all of those works of Mr. Netzband along with many of the other foundational articles by Fancher, Hunt, and others.

Since PAMPA products has access to all of these articles in the archive, assembling them and deciding on format and content is really the biggest part of the project. It would be offered through PAMPA Products as a collection.

I've been wondering if it should be a three hole punched hard-copy format so that it can become the core of a persons "notebook"

Curt-

I am still enthusiastic about this project. One suggestion, though: I think a true spiral binding - helical so that pages open flat and do not tear loose from a spine with use - would be a good thing. My Tom Morris compilation of classic plans is self destructing from use. Even though it's quite attractive, it does not stand up to constant perusal and will have to be rebound at Office Max, so that I can continue to reference and enjoy it.

(I'd still like some of the wisdom from SSWF too, although I've kept my own hard copies of many significant posts.)

Anyway, a compilation of Bill Netzband, Ted Fancher, et.al. would be great; I see such a compendium as significant aviation literature. With their permission, it's about time! Thanks for your concern and enthusiasm for preservation of such precious knowledge.

SK

Why not e-mail Bill himself? ([email protected]) He may have saved everything. Then again, maybe not...

One possible form would be a CD with articles in pdf format. It makes for a small package and you have the ability to print the articles that you choose. To Serge's point, things will get dog-eared and torn. This allows reprinting as needed an takes up less space.

The only problem with a CD format is will anyone be able to read it in 5 years? Ink on paper will never go out of style or become obsolete.

I for one would go for a CD of all of Wild Bill's works. Maybe we could put this forth to Tom Wilk, as he has some CD's already that cover different forms of control line modeling. I have the ones on the published stunt designs, racing and navy carrier.DOC

Just put it on the CD and let us worry about what happens in five years.

If the electricity goes of my Dremel tool wont work anyway!

BIGS

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-04 AT 07:33 PM (CST)
 
As I suggested in my post #4 above, I have all of (or at least most of it) Bill Netzeband's material copied in my library and is in my section of required reading for CLPA.

I will provide dates for all of these articles to Dan McEntee or whoever wishes to take the time to start a reference library of significant material for our event. I have, for historical interest - and a good part of it is still pertinent - the writings of George Aldrich and Bob Palmer from the 50's. Also in my master reference book are the articles and significant columns from Fancher, Rabe, Walker, Fitzgerald, Buck, L. McDonald, Werwagege and Hunt. I also have compiled all of the stunt columns that have appeared in AAM, AM, MA, FM, and Aeromodeller by the authors of those columns written by Boss, Paul, Rabe, Fancher, McMillan, Hunt, Urtnowski, Simons, Maikis Contrata, Brickhouse, and others.

To Dan McEntee, if you want this information, I will send you the dates of the various publications to get started on the Netzeband package. Unfortunately I will not be available to do this for another week.

(Edited for spelling correction.)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-04 AT 02:17 PM (CST)
 
From Mr. Trostle:

Also, available from the PAMPA Stunt News back issues, are the articles that Bill wrote for our newsletter, for which he received considerable complaints and criticism, all unwarranted, for being too technical. I can understand his frustrations and he quit writing for the newsletter. It is our loss.

From Mr. Powell, ex-contributor to the Design column:

Hi Keith

That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince , you will most likley get criticism and complaints no matter what you write, technical or not....
I guess it is just a sign of the new times we live in.
I hope I see you in Tucson this year

Regards

Randy

From Mr. Buck, a man who obviously has a great deal to contribute:

>That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince
>, you will most likley get criticism and complaints no
>matter what you write, technical or not....

Really? I hadn't noticed...

Brett

And finally from Mr. Preston:

>
>>That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince
>>, you will most likley get criticism and complaints no
>>matter what you write, technical or not....
>
> Really? I hadn't noticed...
>
> Brett

Well! If you weren't so far above it all, you might take minute to...
Hey wait, a joke. I get it. Yeah sure

Preston

Apologies for clumsy manner in which above was assembled, but it's a demonstrable *fact* that Stunt News, as good as it is, **is not** as good as it could be.

Let me add another name to the list: Mr. Tom "Layster" Lay, victim of a whispering campaign back when he had volunteered to write the SN Power Train column.

Not a close call, but a wild-eyed and hysterical attempt was made to put my Bad Boy Stunt column out of business. It was a sleasy, under-the-radar effort at first, that failed. Then it was an effort to circumvent established PAMPA policy. Again, with accuracy an option; to wit, presentation to EC of "...well over 100 signatures..." on a petition specifically targeting BBS column. By actual count there were only 32 signatures. Entire matter was blown off by a unanimous vote of the EC.

Why do I bring this up? Two reasons:

1) It pisses me off. As it should every single PAMPA member who likes Stunt News, would like to see it made even better;

2) this sort of thing is of a piece with current and past efforts to divide PAMPA members into East Coast against West Coast, supposed elitists against sport fliers, stick-in-the-muds against "progressives" who are going to take CL to new heights, PAMPA as the vehicle, ridding ourselves of the U.S. Nationals as being a mere coronation and more of a "celebration of CL," whatever that means.

Y'all think long and hard about my comments.

""From Mr. Powell, ex-contributor to the Design column:

Hi Keith

That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince , you will most likley get criticism and complaints no matter what you write, technical or not....
I guess it is just a sign of the new times we live in.
I hope I see you in Tucson this year

Regards

Randy""""

UHHH Dan

Actualy it was from Mr. Smith , not Mr.Powell , I don't wanna blame my scriblings on him...

Randy (Smith)

>""From Mr. Powell, ex-contributor to the Design column:
>
>Hi Keith
>
>That was unfortunate , however I can tell you from experince
>, you will most likley get criticism and complaints no
>matter what you write, technical or not....
>I guess it is just a sign of the new times we live in.
>I hope I see you in Tucson this year
>
>Regards
>
>Randy""""
>
>
>UHHH Dan
>
>Actualy it was from Mr. Smith , not Mr.Powell , I don't
>wanna blame my scriblings on him...
>
>Randy (Smith)

Randy,

My mistake. Sorry. Randy Powell's name came immediately to the fore as same mindless feedback to which Bill was subjected caused Powell to quit his Design column.

On my way to correct a new thread,

LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-04 AT 08:13 AM (CST)
 
I thought this project too good to let die. I e-mailed Tom Wilk offering my help. He has agreed to do the scans and I will coordinate the collection and cataloging of the sources for the articles.

I need volunteers. Keith Trostle has already kindly offered his list of cataloged articles and I am graciously accepting them. It would be wonderful if all of you who have old magazine collections would breeze through them and send me the following for each article:

Author - Article Name - Name of Magazine or Book - Month and date of publication - Page

Simple shorthand will work.

Netzeband - Round and Round - MAN - 7/72 - p34

Don't worry about duplication... I'll deal with that.

If you have a favorite other than Mr. Netzeband, i.e. Peter Soule and many others, send me the info in the same format and I'll start compiling that info for future CD's I assume Tom Wilk would be willing to do that too.

M e-mail address is [email protected] . I would ask that you mention the author somewhere in the title of your e-mail or I'll probably blow it out as spam without even opening it.

>>>I need volunteers.<<<
For what? I am far, but if I can help somehow ....

Igor, you are so far away ...your gravity is different!

First thing we want is to identify the articles that he wrote. Where they appeared and when. This is the see if we can identify all of them. Everything he published. More people looking in magazines and such will improve the odds of getting most of the know work.

You can help by looking in all of your old magazines and books to see if you have any articles. Just send a list of the articles - not the actual articles to me.

Distance doesn't matter.

>>>your gravity is different! <<<
I affraid not only gravity ...

>>>Distance doesn't matter.<<<

but language matters, if I have articles, then in little bit different language

... I was meaning rather technical help if something ... putting to web, making directory, references, ... I have no idea how much it is, if it is necessary, what you think will be the result, I think it is never ending story

Hey Gang, I'm here to tie another knot in this thread.I admit to lurking on this site, without getting involved in the activities. There are more than enough knowledgable folks to help answer the myriad questions. It is an amazing place to intercgange ideas, factoids, and stuff. I have offered to help Steve if he cares to take over this project.

I want to make a statement related to my resignation from the Stunt News Designing Column during the last century. It had nothing to do with criticism or angst. Over the years I was poking around in aero design math and trying to communicate these wonders to the readers, there was a recurring bother! Folks admitted they liked my presentations, but they DIDN"T UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT! It took many years to get the hint that I wasn't making them as happy as I was. When I asked the readers if they would be willing to pay for analysis, so I could help directly, rather that on the monthly (etc.) magazine schedule, there were 4 votes for, and none against. As an old QC Engineer, this was obviously not an adequate sample, and I immediately pulled the plug, with, of course, some regrets.

Anyhow, I still run numbers, but my flying is restricted, and the building has waned. I'm still out here, but becoming more retired as time staggers on.

Best Regards
Bill:

LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-04 AT 07:14 PM (CST)
 
Someone said you had gone to the big circle in the sky. Obviously the rumors of your demise are greatly exagerated!

I for one am delighted that you are still with us. I used to drive my high school physics teacher crazy asking for him to explain some of the tougher parts. Usually burned a notebook pad scratching til I got it..... well most of it.

I really hope that you move forward on this.

Personal thanks for the great thought provoking stuff you have written over the years.

Edited - Bill... I should have read my e-mail

>I thought this project too good to let die. I e-mailed Tom
>Wilk offering my help. He has agreed to do the scans and I
>will coordinate the collection and cataloging of the sources
>for the articles.

I submit that the really right way to capture the words of wisdom is to use an OCR program to scan the magazine articles at high res and then compute back out the editable text, rather than just scan the articles and put them in as huge photos.

This will allow searching of the article text data base, cutting and pasting of key passages as text and printing as high quality text, not just whatever the quality of the scan is.

It's a bit more time consuming, but is the right way to preserve the real information in the copy. Put all the text files and the scanned images into a SQL DB and it would be searchable on the web by any keyword. Like "bellcrank" and "leadout position", for instance.

My two sense worth.

Cy

I was considering this as a necessary thing to do when I was considering it--just to make the final product a bit more consistent and readable. Of course you havce alot of diagrams and graphics that need to come along--alot would have to be simply scanned or re-drawn.

The Netzband articles in particular, have alot of graphics.

Agreed. You gotta scan the diagrams. But you can save a lot of room by enclosing them as bitmap images and the text as, well, text.

Can't do without the drawings.

Cy.

it hasta be "WILD BILL"netzeband

Mr. Netzeband has given his blessing for this project and we are go. Please send the information to me at [email protected]

"Wild Bill" is his AMA number also.

I wonder if any one remembers all the work done by Tom Morris. Available from PAMPA products, is a neat 41 page booklet entitled: "Control Line Precision Aerobatics BIBLIOGRAPHY." In it, it has compiled, from 17 publications, 11 main topics, ie: Beginning, Building, Contests, Designing, Finishing, Flying, Miscellaneous, Personalities, Planes, Power Train, and Products.
The eariiest listing is Oct 1950 Air Trails. It lists the title, author, page, source, month/year.
I think this is the list you will end up with, and maybe not even as complete. It is not limited to CLPA, but CL with the emmphasis on CLPA.
The sources include: MAN, FM, AT, AM, AAM, AERO, AW, CSM, FMD, MAC, MBA, SAM, SM, SN (STUNT NEWS), ZYB. SM is by the way, Sport Modeler. Not much left to compile if you ask me. Last listed is:Dec 1995 FM. So from Jan 1996 to present should make it much easier to compile all those articles. Many will be the same, just different authors.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-04 AT 11:43 AM (CST)
 
Thanks Ty:

I actually have articles going back to 1929 I recall.

Also, all of the SN issues have been biblio'd and added up to current. THe next printing will include those.

For article research, I have the electronic copies in excel so I can find, sort, and search for just about anything.

Recently did a full set of all Netzband articles in the archive for a member.

But it sound s like the others are running with this ball anyway. It will be a great collection! Bill's stuff is exceptional.

Curt
PAMPA Products

LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 01:43 AM (CST)
 
I do not know who is going to be the one to compile this material. There have been several volunteers, so will let the several of you sort out who is going to do what.

Here is what I have in my file for articles and material written by Bill Netzeband, in no particular order and it is not sorted by any particular topic. He wrote the R&R column in Model Airplane News and the Conrol Line Capers column in American Modeler for a period spanning many years. I have only listed those columns below where there was "something of interest" regarding stunt. I have not included any of the material he wrote for Stunt News during the recent past.

I make no claim that this is an all-inclusive list, particularly the material included in his monthly columns. His treatment of all control line activities in his R&R and CL Capers columns is good reading. It would probably be worthwhile to include all of his monthly columns in any collection of his writings.

MAN, Dec 56, How to Test a Stunt Ship
MAN, Jan 57, How to Fly Stunt
MAN, Feb 57, Theory and the Stunt Model
MAN, Mar 57, More about Stunt Theory
MAN, Apr 57, Pointers on Stunt

AM, Jul/Aug 66, Control-Line Aerodynamics made Painless (Part 1 of a series - This has the nomographs to determine leadout location based on model weight, speed, line length and diameter.)
AM Sep/Oct 66, The Control System (Part 2 of the series)
AM, Dec 67, Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless (Part 3 of the series)

Zaic Yearbook, 57-58, Designing U-Control Models
AM, Sep 60, How to Selet the Proper Glow Plug ... and Why
AM, Sep/Oct 63, Horizontal Piston Engine (This is Bill's review of the Aero 35.)
MAN, Sep 66, Transistor Audio Tachometer
MA, Aug 01, It's Called Control Line

MAN, May 69, R&R column
MAN, Jun 69, R&R column
MAN, Jul 69, R&R column
MAN, Aug 69, R&R column
MAN, Sep 69, R&R column
MAN, Nov 69, R&R column
MAN, Dec 69, R&R column
MAN, Jan 70, R&R column
MAN, Feb 70, R&R column
MAN, Apr 70, R&R column
MAN, May 70, R&R column
MAN, Jul 70, R&R column
MAN, Aug 70, R&R column
MAN, Sep 70, R&R column
MAN, Oct 70, R&R column
MAN, Nov 70, R&R column
MAN, Dec 70, R&R column
MAN, Feb 70, R&R column
MAN, Mar 70, R&R column

AM, Jan 62, CL Capers column
AM, Oct 62, CL Capers column (shows the now infamous photos of his CG/Bellcrank test device!!!)
AM, Mar/Apr 63

DESIGN Articles

MAN, Aug 57, The Fierce Arrow
MAN, May 68, Fierce Arrow '400'
FM, Mar 02, Doodlebug
MA, Jul 01, Simple Simone
AM, ???, Splinter (combat)
AM, Jun 61, Equalizer (combat)
MAN, Apr 55, Half Fast (combat)
Zaic Yearbook, 51-52, Scared Kitten (combat - now OTS legal)

Bill collaborated with Bob Baron on a number of Barons design articles. It might be well to include some of Baron's work with any listing of Netzeband material.

Hope this gets somebody started.

(Edited to add listings)

Don't forget this recent one:

Netzeband, Bill; "Doodlebug Bros."; Flying Models; 2/03; pp.24-29 (A series of models scaled to powerplant, experimental results, and tabulation of corresponding indices)

Bill said he'd extended this research, with interesting results, since the article appeared. Perhaps he'd update us here and/or write something that could be included in the compendium?

SK

LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 07:29 AM (CST)
 
Thanks Keith for your list. Serge has also sent a list of items to me by e-mail.

If it's not clear to some, I'll be identifying and compiling the list of published works and Tom Wilk will do the scanning and production of the CD. Keith, you're confusing help with advice!

An update on this project. Today I sent the list of articles written by Bill Netzeband to Tom Wilk.

Tom has informed me that this will be the next project when he completes a current CD he is working on.

It will be a great work when completed and should be required reading for anyone who picks up a handle.

Especially if you like algebraic formulas. I was given a D in algebra if I promised not to sign up for high school algebra again. So most of my work was hands on experience on try and fly. Still look up to the man as one of my heroes I look forward to at VSC. -DOC

>Especially if you like algebraic formulas. I was given a D
>in algebra if I promised not to sign up for high school
>algebra again. So most of my work was hands on experience
>on try and fly. Still look up to the man as one of my
>heroes I look forward to at VSC. -DOC
One comment I'd make is that you shouldn't let the "math" stand in the way of reading Bill's stuff.

Not unlike the Martin Simon's book you can read for "concept" rather than numbers. The vast (some might say half vast, a wild Bill pun) majority of my design efforts, for instance, are the result of playing with concepts of design and aerodynamics coupled with a life time exposure to things aeronautical.

The stuff we do doesn't require the gnats eyelash sort of accuracy that Brett's satellites, etc. require. They do, however, respond wonderfully well enough to learn the affects of the "concepts" of aerodynamics. Our little airplanes are nothing more than just...well...smaller big airplanes.

When the talk boils down to Reynolds numbers, for instance, is perfectly adequate for purposes of disigning good stunt ship to simply know that Reynolds numbers are a means whereby the technically and mathmatically proficient scale the results of experiments and calculations based on the size of the sample tested.

It's nice to say that like it's something that had a huge impact on why your stunter is configured the way it is but, for the most part, it simply isn't important in terms of building a better CLPA mousetrap.

Finally, Bill's regular use of nomographs (working combinations of X and Y axis graphs that can be manipulated with a straight edge to discover truly good stuff) are simple to use and amazingly accurate.

In other words, read Bill's stuff because it's enjoyably written, often humorous and includes numbers that make some of us happy, yet always addresses the concepts that all of us can understand with just a little effort.

A one of a kinder.

You can pull one of Bill's articles from PAMPA website. It's located in members-only area.

My version is more than just a picture file. I ran text recognition after the scan and formatted the text to make it easy to print. All original graphs and pictures where then placed in relevant locations throughout the article.

Steven Yampolsky