Cheap .40 sized engines

Not actually wanting to start building anything soon, but I was wondering which of the really cheap .40s have been tried and work well as Stunt engines.

There's the LA .40 (and .46), of course - very popular, and amazingly lightweight (I've seen figures of 9 oz. or so - that's the weight of BB .36s). There's the Magnum XL .40 (and .46), maybe we should throw the .36 in too (much lighter). Then there's the Thunder Tigre GP .42 - this one intrigues me as being the cheapest ($50), and I wonder if anyone's actually tried using it for Stunt. It weighs 12 oz., though. Similar to the Magnum .40 and .46 are the ASP engines.

Hmmm...

Maybe I'd just get the LA and be done with it. It does have that neat blue color.

40 LA.... good choice and comes in two flavors.

Here is the list I made up a while ago from this available in the UK!

MAKE DISP MODEL GRMS OZ PRICE
MDS 38 38PRO 330 11.6 £35.99
MDS 40 40PRO 350 12.4 £35.99
THUNDER TIGER 42 GP42 360 12.7 £38.99
SUPER CUSTOM 40 40A 412 14.5 £44.99
RIPMAX 40 40 ? ? £44.99
THUNDER TIGER 36 PRO36 313 11.0 £53.99
SUPER CUSTOM 36 36A 321 11.3 £53.99
LEO 37 37 280 9.9 £54.99
ASP 36 36 332 11.7 £54.99
ASP 40 40S 412 14.5 £54.99
MAGNUM 36 XL36A 327 11.5 £63.50
MAGNUM 40 40A 423 14.9 £75.95

>Here is the list I made up a while ago from this available
>in the UK!
>
>MAKE DISP MODEL GRMS OZ PRICE
>MDS 38 38PRO 330 11.6 £35.99
>MDS 40 40PRO 350 12.4 £35.99
>THUNDER TIGER 42 GP42 360 12.7 £38.99
>SUPER CUSTOM 40 40A 412 14.5 £44.99
>RIPMAX 40 40 ? ? £44.99
>THUNDER TIGER 36 PRO36 313 11.0 £53.99
>SUPER CUSTOM 36 36A 321 11.3 £53.99
>LEO 37 37 280 9.9 £54.99
>ASP 36 36 332 11.7 £54.99
>ASP 40 40S 412 14.5 £54.99
>MAGNUM 36 XL36A 327 11.5 £63.50
>MAGNUM 40 40A 423 14.9 £75.95

A lot of these weights are interesting coming from the manufacturer because they include the muffler and are not necessarily accurate. I have already commented about the TT 42 with its 3.5 ounce muffler. But it comes in at 8 ounces on my gram scale. The ASP 36 is 9 ounces dressed out in venturi and needle (no muffler). The TT 36 is under 8.

A lot of these engines, if you drop their heavy and draggy muffler, and substitute a good tube or tongue muffler, can be made to work better and at much lower total weight.

>Not actually wanting to start building anything soon, but I
>was wondering which of the really cheap .40s have been tried
>and work well as Stunt engines.
>
>There's the LA .40 (and .46), of course - very popular, and
>amazingly lightweight (I've seen figures of 9 oz. or so -
>that's the weight of BB .36s). There's the Magnum XL .40
>(and .46), maybe we should throw the .36 in too (much
>lighter). Then there's the Thunder Tigre GP .42 - this one
>intrigues me as being the cheapest ($50), and I wonder if
>anyone's actually tried using it for Stunt. It weighs 12
>oz., though. Similar to the Magnum .40 and .46 are the ASP
>engines.

Just a correction on the Thunder Tiger GP 42. You can't always go by manufacturer's weights. Some list them as engine alone. Some list them as with muffler. The Thunder Tiger GP .42 weighs 8.32 ounces bare (no muffler, no carb, no venturi). Add a venturi and tongue muffler and you stay at about 9 ounces for the package. These make very excellent little engines, by the way. They are cheap, well made, and even though you need to add a venturi and needle (I use the OS FP needle) the carbs are fragile and the RC guys tend to break them. You can usually find a ready market for these carbs (I have sold everyone I had) from somebody who just broke his. The down side is you have to drill the cross hole for the needle. Make (Get--I have them on hand) a venturi that is undrilled. Clamp the engine in a drill press vice making sure it is level (check the side of the mount) and then insert the venturi, and while squeezing down drill through the top portion of the little flat circle on one side of the case. Use a .140 drill bit and it will fit the OS needle fine. It is not difficult to get these holes right down the middle. And if you are off a little, it doesn't hurt. That's why you drill an undrilled venturi, so both the case and venturi match. This venturi, by the way, is like an OS FP venturi, except that the bottom portion is slightly tapered (about 3 degrees).

The engine fits FP mounts, shaft length, and muffler. The needle will end up slightly lower, but will still work just fine both inverted and upright with no tank height changes needed.

Nice engine (Did I say that?) It is not a clone of the FP/LA internally, and very well made--especially considering the price. It works well inverted.

Leonard Neumann

It's too bad Thunder Tiger doesn't make the "GP" in a 40 disp. The 40 "Pro" is just too heavy at 12 oz with no muffler...They are great engines ...Well made, priced right and easy to use...

Tnx, Mike, the "Old Harley Man" [email protected]

>It's too bad Thunder Tiger doesn't make the "GP" in a 40
>disp. The 40 "Pro" is just too heavy at 12 oz with no
>muffler...They are great engines ...Well made, priced right
>and easy to use...

The 46 Pro weighs in at 11 ounces in CL dress (with venturi and needle, but without muffler). The 40 weighs a bit more, but I don't think a full ounce. Still, I have to agree with you that it is heavy for a 40. In fact, the PA 61 weighs in at the same weight as the Pro 46. That is where I like the Magnum 53 at 10.7 ounces for a much larger engine than the Prop 40 or even 46. Even the new 52 is but an ounce heavier--still within reason for an engine of its size.

Now, TT did make a GP version in a 40 size engine (RC only, but easy to put a venturi on.) And the downfall of the 42 is that for competition use it needs the larger lines. Still, they offer the advantage of less springiness and sharper control. I used to always fly on .018 lines even with my 35 size engines.

But, if weight is a consideration, That 42 for the price and light weight package is a good engine. For a bit more money you can go to the Pro 36, which, in its small package, is a very light 36. It is about a quarter ounce lighter even than the 35 FP, and a bit lighter than the Magnum 36, while offering certainly comparable power.

Lots of choices when you really look.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-04 AT 10:19 PM (CST)
 
>
>Nice engine (Did I say that?) It is not a clone of the
>FP/LA internally, and very well made--especially considering
>the price. It works well inverted.
>
>Leonard Neumann

Do they (TT's) still say "ABC" on the box, when they're really ABN? Just wondering. That's always bothered me about TT's, FWIW. Steve

PS: I just got two non-blue (R/C) .40LA's today in the Fed-EX for p.40/BARF Cardinal. I'm thinking of painting the heads red and the rest of the cylinder fins black....

>>
>>Nice engine (Did I say that?) It is not a clone of the
>>FP/LA internally, and very well made--especially considering
>>the price. It works well inverted.
>>
>>Leonard Neumann
>
>Do they (TT's) still say "ABC" on the box, when they're
>really ABN? Just wondering. That's always bothered me about
>TT's, FWIW. Steve
>
>PS: I just got two non-blue (R/C) .40LA's today in the
>Fed-EX for p.40/BARF Cardinal. I'm thinking of painting the
>heads red and the rest of the cylinder fins black....
>
>http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

They do say, "ABC", yes. It is really ABN, but I think for most modelers this has become generic like zipper, which was once a brand name but was lost in the vernacular.

If you paint the engine (making it into a MCcoy?) be aware that it can make it less efficient for cooling.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-04 AT 08:13 AM (CST)
 
Isky,

As you well know from some of my earlier questions, I'm interested in economical choices. The TT GP 42 could be a perfect solution for stunt. Unfortunately, the "2" causes all of the problems with CLPA. If you check the rules, anything with displacement over 0.4028 cu. in. must use 0.018 lines. In Fast Combat, that means nothing because displacement is limited to 36's anyway, but it's a huge penalty in CLPA.

I checked the box on mine, and the displacement is listed as 0.421 cubic inches. (It's not listed on ACE's web site.)

Unfortunately, that puts a 42 at the absolute bottom of power choices for 0.018 lines in CLPA, and it has to compete with 45's, 46's, 50's and 60's, while every 40 is at the top of the power curve with 0.015's.

Someone needs to make an official request of PAMPA:
Petition the AMA to raise the limit of 0.015 lines to 0.421 cu. inches.

I don't think any other 40 would be affected adversely (well, maybe not). The TT GP42 is almost in a solitary place in terms of performance and economy.

*** Len posted before I did, but it does not address what I think is a horrible rules situation with this engine. PLEASE - somebody get a movement going. ***

Isky,
While the Magnum 36 XLS II isn't a 40, I do believe it is the equal of most of the cheap 40s at least. Less than $100 US for everything.
Bill <><

>Isky,
>While the Magnum 36 XLS II isn't a 40, I do believe it is
>the equal of most of the cheap 40s at least. Less than $100
>US for everything.
>Bill <><
>
>When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his
>friends.
>Japanese Proverb

Bill,

While my own Magnum 36 XLS has yet to pull a model around the sky, I have several times seen PTG's Diva, Keith's Saturn fly. From outside the circle, admittedly not the best perspective for all evaluations, the piped Magnum 36 is very close to a proven combaination, that of the 40VF on a pipe. It is worth noting that neither PTG nor Keith flinch when buying the best regardless of price; and yet they both stick with a $70.00 engine because it works.

As to these engines off the pipe, Mike Haverly's Oriental/Magnum 36 is now really an excellent package. At first he was using too much prop and so it roared around at a good clip, although the run quality was such that it didn't bother him. I flew this model back when it was really roaring, even with a whack-job handle adjustment, really liked it. Fast, but really pointable and consistent.

Now that Mike has cut back on pitch, I would have to say his Magnum 36 is easily the equal to any side-exhaust, muffled 40 (Mike is using a tongue muffler) I have ever seen, and I particularly like the constant two-stroke run.

>As to these engines off the pipe, Mike Haverly's
>Oriental/Magnum 36 is now really an excellent package. At
>first he was using too much prop and so it roared around at
>a good clip, although the run quality was such that it
>didn't bother him.

What is the prop of choice?

PTG was running the Phelps right?

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-04 AT 10:30 AM (CST)
 
We use a Bolly 10 1/2-4 3 bld., or a ~11-4 Bolly 2 bld. Both have been excellent. Tongue muffler from ??
I have a couple "Phelps" 36 props, but haven't tried them on the Magnum.
If you like more of a "Pipe" style, constant speed run, the Magnum 36 does it great.
Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-04 AT 08:25 AM (CST)
 
You might want to consider the OS Max FX series engines. These engines are a power house I have 2 of the OS 25FX engines. I don't have any of the FX series in a 40 size they are too large for me and produce about the same power as a 50 size engine. The OS 25FX will turn a 10x6 prop, 11x5 or 12x4. A 4 pitch prop at any diameter is perfect for stunt. The 25FX engine is about 3/4 ounce lighter weight than the 40LA. This is an $85.00 engine NEW at the hobby shop. They typically sell for about $65.00 new on ebay.

you can also take a look at the Tiger Shark line of engines.
http://www.kangkeusa.com/Engines/tsengines.htm

the .39 is a small case engine, similar to the TT 36, with a ring.
the 36 is a straight ABC.

Made in China, I guess. Pretty typical quality, similar to Magnum.

The Toower 40 is a fine engine, occasionally comes NIB on one or another classified or auction.

>you can also take a look at the Tiger Shark line of engines.
>http://www.kangkeusa.com/Engines/tsengines.htm
>
>the .39 is a small case engine, similar to the TT 36, with a
>ring.
>the 36 is a straight ABC.
>
>Made in China, I guess. Pretty typical quality, similar to
>Magnum.

This one intrigues me.

I would like to get one to test on Phil's Giles.

I think highly of an ABC setup with a ring fitted to piston. That's the way Saito engines--well, at least the 56 and 72--are built and it seems to be excellent.

Uh, it's not really clear to me the 39 comes ringed. Am I reading this incorrectly?

And while I don't want to get another fight started--PTG's Diva article may well do that; we'll see--in this very thread we come up against our poorly-defined, poorly-applied use of the word "power." (Rush, we will you please get your CL Stunt-specific definition of "power" finalized for us?)

It is possible that of those on this thread, only Bill and I are speaking the same language, talking about the same *type* of run, the same and highly desired speed regulation seen with piped 40VFs, 46VFs, ROJett 61s...and a nondescript, small-bore, muffled engine of which I can no longer speak on SSW.

It's not enough, not even by a long shot, to spin a certain prop at about the same rpm as does the Magnum 36XL and then declare you've got an equivalent engine. If that were true, both Phil and I have 36s which, on paper at least, would make the Magnum look like a girlie-man motor. They are, however, not suitable at all for CL Stunt.

Finally, if you want "cheap," go for it. The Magnum 36 is not being used by people like PTG, KVarley, Derek Moran and Bill Little because it's cheap, as pricing levels only add to the surprise factor, matter not a whit when making second turn in the hourglass, first loop in four-leaf clover.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-04 AT 03:50 PM (CST)
 
Well, since the Original post is "Cheap .40 sized engines", I responded as to what I feel is the best (by far) inexpensive "40 sized" engine out there. And no, the $69.95 base price isn't the greatest feature of the Magnum.

I have pretty much ceased the desire to get an OS LA because of this engine.

Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-04 AT 04:43 PM (CST)
 
If you really want cheap...

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the OS Max 40FP.

These engines are readily available NIB on eBay for less than $50.00. In fact, I recently sold two NIB examples for about $45.00 each, including the stock carbs and mufflers. Add in $6.00 shipping and you still have a very nice buy.

If the buyer were to resell the carbs and cans to an RC flyer, the engines would be an even better buy at about $30. to $35. each!

While I don't consider these to be the be-all-and-end-all of stunt mills, they certainly have served plenty of flyers quite well, for a long time.

They produce good power, last a good while and once set-up, are as easy to operate as anything else short of a pipe engine.

Furthermore, set-up info and mods are readily available from many sources.

For a flyer on a tight budget, these deserve consideration.

BIGS

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

I was guessing that Isky was only speaking to current production engines.
The FP 40 is a very good engine. I have one that is going strong after a dozen years. It is well mannered and puts out pretty good power. It has been retimed, and runs a nice 4-2. It powered my first contest stunter when I started back, and I bought it used from Byron Barker. Nice engine, but I still hear of runaways when people are not sure of the set up with a stock one.
Bill <><

The LA sound's like a good way to go to me too, BUT, if you really want cheap go to an R/C swap meet and look for a K&B .40, preferably the single ring #4011. You can usually get them for about $10-$15. Throw the carb away and put a .260 to .280 venturi in and they run beautifully.

Drawbacks: They seem to run best on their own muffler, so they're a bit heavy and the single "Dykes" ring doesn't really seal up till they are running so they can be a bit harder to hand start.

Advantages: Set up that way and with their own muffler they are EXTREMELY user friendly and near indestructable. I have two and have put about 750 flights on them. About half of what our club flies seem to be these old K & B's.

Not Nats winners any more, but very cheap and friendly.

Hi Jeff,
Les McDonald used the K&B 40 in his WC big Stilleto.
Dave Hemstraught (PT-19) and Stan Powell (Dove) were using them until recently. Most had some retiming done to them for a good 4-2 break. I think they would be just fine stock with a flatter prop! They are CHEAP cost wise, and fairly strong. You still see the Brodak ABC version available, too.
Bill <><

I guess it does look as though the .42GP isn't as heavy as I thought it was. I was surprised that the .46FP weighed so little in comparison, but yeah, I figure if you include the muffler in the GP's weight and you don't in the case of the FP, that would make up the difference.

I guess I should have mentioned in the beginning that "cheap" would also mean few or no accessories to buy. That means being able to use cheap APC props and not $30 carbon ones, and also means being able to use a plain muffler, no tuned pipe.

For a plane, I was thinking along the lines of Phil's Giles, just simplified (or uglified, depending on ones' point of view). Maybe foam with brown paper covering, and a foam cored balsa sheeted fuselage. But I'll likely build a smaller (.25 sized) one first - I have some old Leo .28s I've never taken out of the box that I can try.