AMA #'s

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how few planes pictured in MA have their AMA numbers attached? In the recent mag under the RC Pylon section there is a picture of a group of flyers. I can't see any numbers on these planes. In most cases CL planes that are shown have the numbers. Is this going to be an insurance problem?
Joe

AMA general rules say the OWNER of the airplanes' name and address or AMA number have to be somewhere in or on the airplane. Yes, it is an insurance issue.

>AMA general rules say the OWNER of the airplanes' name and
>address or AMA number have to be somewhere in or on the
>airplane. Yes, it is an insurance issue.
>
>Jim

Yep - but that's usually a business card size sticker inside the radio compartment.

In CLPA, there ia a reg that it has to be on your right wing in 1" high letters. I am not positive why we have that particular regulation (I can speculate!).

AMA itself, as Jim T. points out just requires the number somewhere on or in the plane. A lot of RC kits come with a piece of paper that you can fill out with your name and AMA number (and address if you like) and tape inside the radio compartment. We could do that too with CL (for a built up fuse), at least to satisfy the AMA Safety code.

Alan,

The number can be on the wing, fuse or vertical stab, but must be 1" letters regardless of location. When on the fuse it is recommended it be prefixed "N" which denotes US internationally.

>When on the fuse
>it is recommended it be prefixed "N" which denotes US
>internationally.

Randy,

Well, that *used* to be true. For purposes of FAI competition, the "N" has been replaced by "USA" which is now required to identify the nationality of the model in FAI competition. So the rockets I flew in FAI world championship competition were required to display "USA 61444" at least 1 cm high. The 61444 is of course my AMA number, which is also therefore my NAA license number, and therefore also my FAI sporting license number. Ain't bureaucracy grand?

Andy

P.S. You going to the Balsa Bugs party? A good venue to hand off my stuff...

AT

Andy,

The rule book still specifies N in the CL section.

Dad and I will be at the party, see you then.

>Andy,
>
>The rule book still specifies N in the CL section.
>
>Dad and I will be at the party, see you then.

Randy,

For sure. I wasn't disputing that "N" is still specified in the rule book. I only meant to point out that the rule is out of date, and the reason for it no longer applies. If anyone cares, the existing, outdated, rule could be updated to specify "USA" in accordance with current FAI practice. But I doubt anyone really cares...

See you at Bill's.

Andy

>>Andy,
>>
>>The rule book still specifies N in the CL section.
>>
>>Dad and I will be at the party, see you then.
>
>Randy,
>
>For sure. I wasn't disputing that "N" is still specified in
>the rule book. I only meant to point out that the rule is
>out of date, and the reason for it no longer applies. If
>anyone cares, the existing, outdated, rule could be updated
>to specify "USA" in accordance with current FAI practice.
>But I doubt anyone really cares...
>
>See you at Bill's.
>
>Andy

Andy: As I see from this post you know how to type. So after the first of January 2005 why don't you submit a proposal to correct the rule. Very easy to do: State rule being changed, What the change should be and submit to appropiate rules cordinator. I did that a few years ago when I had a problem pop in Navy Carrier when I was an event director. Rule was excepted and passed unanamously. Later, ---DOC Holliday

I do, I put my number on the fuse, it I have to use USA I'm out of space!! Dang!!

Randy,
You are correct!

As a hobby/sport, the great majority of AMA members are non-competitors. The insurance (therefore, membership) is required as a ticket to fly at most RC fields - it is at mine and several others. That builds a huge user base of fliers, but not competitors. Putting the actual numbers on the plane is never enforced except at a contest. The typical sport flyer - which is the focus of the Model Aviation pictures - will never put numbers on a plane.

Even so, it was many years ago, but the contests I entered didn't require the numbers, either. I always had a stick-on sheet of numbers in case it was needed, but it never was.

Control-liners' percentage of competitors vs. sport fliers is probably much closer. This is due to various reasons, but mostly because the competition organizations are the focus of preserving the sport (PAMPA). So the chances are much greater that the typical control-liner may be contest-aware as compared to the great numbers of RC sport fliers, and will put numbers on their planes.

Very few - if any - catalog pictures include numbers, either.

Reason I say it is an insurance issue is that the owner of the airplane always has some responsibility. I think, if someone wanted to be hard-nosed about it, that flying an airplane without AMA number or name and address might void the insurance coverage. I don't think the general rule is about competition, but am mostly speculating.

Jim,
You are right. If you look at the AMA membership manual for 2004 (go to AMA home page, and under the "Publications" tab, choose membership manual). On page 2, righthand column, 4th bullet down,

"Failure to comply with the AMASafety Code may endanger insurance coverage. "

The safety code contains the AMA# or name and address requirement. So this is true for all AMA flying (except indoor), not just contests.

>As a hobby/sport, the great majority of AMA members are
>non-competitors. The insurance (therefore, membership) is
>required as a ticket to fly at most RC fields - it is at
>mine and several others. That builds a huge user base of
>fliers, but not competitors. Putting the actual numbers on
>the plane is never enforced except at a contest. The
>typical sport flyer - which is the focus of the Model
>Aviation pictures - will never put numbers on a plane.
>
>Even so, it was many years ago, but the contests I entered
>didn't require the numbers, either. I always had a stick-on
>sheet of numbers in case it was needed, but it never was.
>
>Control-liners' percentage of competitors vs. sport fliers
>is probably much closer. This is due to various reasons,
>but mostly because the competition organizations are the
>focus of preserving the sport (PAMPA). So the chances are
>much greater that the typical control-liner may be
>contest-aware as compared to the great numbers of RC sport
>fliers, and will put numbers on their planes.
>
>Very few - if any - catalog pictures include numbers,
>either.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

The general AMA rules still apply,the model must have the owner's AMA number. The purpose is to establish a clear AMA/Club/owner liability in the event of a claim.The fact that most RC flyers don't comply is irrelevant. In my experience they don't comply to any other rules either, safety or otherwise. I speak from the experience of twice being president of a 100+ member RC club

In competition, the CL Aerobatic rule is clear and always has been(whether it is enforced or not is another matter),the number must be as described,and PERMANENTLY attached.

That's why I always use a "Permanent" Magic Marker.

(and yes I know how that works under an alcohol rub!)

>That's why I always use a "Permanent" Magic Marker.;-)
>
>(and yes I know how that works under an alcohol rub!)

Ron B.
F4Fguy

In other words,its NOT permanent,and you admit to flagrantly violating the rule.

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD"!

>>That's why I always use a "Permanent" Magic Marker.
>>
>>(and yes I know how that works under an alcohol rub!)
>
>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
>In other words,its NOT permanent,and you admit to flagrantly
>violating the rule.
>
>"OFF WITH HIS HEAD"!
>
>Ron B.

Ron b.: Better yet, tar and feathers. -DOC

>
>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
>The general AMA rules still apply,the model must have the
>owner's AMA number. The purpose is to establish a clear
>AMA/Club/owner liability in the event of a claim.The fact
>that most RC flyers don't comply is irrelevant. In my
>experience they don't comply to any other rules either,
>safety or otherwise. I speak from the experience of twice
>being president of a 100+ member RC club
>
>In competition, the CL Aerobatic rule is clear and always
>has been(whether it is enforced or not is another
>matter),the number must be as described,and PERMANENTLY
>attached.
>
>Ron B.

Depends on what you mean as "numbers." In the context of the original question, it is the 1" high numbers specified in competition rules. Numbers of that type are either easily noticed, or they are not there.

See my post #6 above for the response about non-competition AMA information. I think someone also added below about the limited number of competition events that absolutely require 1" high numbers.

If I were to paraphrase Howard (I can do that since I fell for his visual special effects), "Decorations are a lot of work, and 1" high numbers are decorations."

Ron B.
F4Fguy

>Depends on what you mean as "numbers." In the context of
>the original question, it is the 1" high numbers specified
>in competition rules. Numbers of that type are either
>easily noticed, or they are not there.

The rule says "at least one inch",they can be larger.It says nothing about "easily noticed",it refers to stroke and width to enable ready recognition.
>
>See my post #6 above for the response about non-competition
>AMA information. I think someone also added below about the
>limited number of competition events that absolutely require
>1" high numbers.

ALL the official AMA Control Line Aerobatics events;322,323,324,325,326.
>
>If I were to paraphrase Howard (I can do that since I fell
>for his visual special effects), "Decorations are a lot of
>work, and 1" high numbers are decorations."

The rule doesn't say it has to be pretty,nor specify the method of application. It does say at least one inch high and permanent.

>Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how few planes
>pictured in MA have their AMA numbers attached? In the
>recent mag under the RC Pylon section there is a picture of
>a group of flyers. I can't see any numbers on these planes.
>In most cases CL planes that are shown have the numbers. Is
>this going to be an insurance problem?
>Joe

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Joe:

It's not just you. As you say many A.C. show no AMA number. On the cover of the latest Stunt News,Noel Drindak's beautiful Super Kestrel does have an AMA number, but it's in the wrong place, which is also very common.

The rule book is very clear on this.Under "Control Line Precision Aerobatics,Model Requirements and Contestant Classification,2.3":

"All models shall be identified by the contestant's AMA number permanently affixed to the right hand lifting surface* or to each side of the fuselage or vertical stabilizer. The height of the numerals shall be at least one(1) inch(25.4mm)"............

*When I was competing regularly ,this was always interpreted as the wing, the flap being a control device.

Please note also,that this rule applies to all the AMA aerobatic events : 322,323,324,325,and 326, whether there is a BOM requirement or not. I would expect it would also apply to any non AMA event (P-40)flown at an AMA sanctioned contest.

The intent of the rule should be obvious, to prevent what is becoming a common practice, i.e. multiple flyers of the same A.C.,or non- builder/owner flyers.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-04 AT 01:57 PM (CST)
 
>*When I was competing regularly ,this was always interpreted
>as the wing, the flap being a control device.

Actually the flap is counted in wing area calcs so it's considered a lifting surface. It is a control surface, but regardless it counts as wing area just like ailerons or flaps on a full scale. For example, look at Windy's B-25.

I think 1" letters anywhere on the right side of the wing meets the rules. So Noel's plane is legal.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-04 AT 01:42 PM (CST)
 
I just emailed Steve Kaluf, AMA Competitions Director, about this rule. He just advised me the requirement to have the 1" numbers on the right hand lifting surface or both sides of the fuse or vert stab applies to events 322, 323, 324, 325 & 326 only. It does not apply to OTS, Classic, Profile or any other non-AMA event.

However, the general rule that states that you must have your name, address & AMA number affixed somewhere on or in the model does apply.
In the case of a profile model, I would assume that this means you can put the name, address & AMA number inside the wing.

Bill Hodges
X47 Flyers

>I just emailed Steve Kaluf, AMA Competitions Director, about
>this rule. He just advised me the requirement to have the
>1" numbers on the right hand lifting surface or both sides
>of the fuse or vert stab applies to events 322, 323, 324,
>325 & 326 only. It does not apply to OTS, Classic, Profile
>or any other non-AMA event.
>
>However, the general rule that states that you must have
>your name, address & AMA number affixed somewhere on or in
>the model does apply.
>In the case of a profile model, I would assume that this
>means you can put the name, address & AMA number inside the
>wing.
>
>Bill Hodges
>X47 Flyers

actually Bill his answer is a bunch of hogwash, the real deal here is that only C/L flyers are required to have AMA numbers, thats the way AMA knows how many C/L flyers there are and when the amount of C/L flyers gets to high, the AMA will buy up sullivan,sig, brodak and all the fishing line companies so we can't get cables to fly with and then the R/C group will win, unfortunetly they dont know we have a plan.

this was meant in fun so please no nasty replies

Steve is absolutely correct about the numbered events requiring the CONTESTANT'S AMA no in the specified position. For other events where you may be flying someone else's model, refer to General rule 4 on page 10 of the 2002/2004 rulebook. It states "All models, except indoor, will be identified with the OWNER's name and address or AMA number, on or in the model." A protest in OTS, classic, etc. for not having the pilot's AMA no. on the model would by this rule not be valid.

LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-04 AT 08:29 PM (CST)
 
You mean!...that when a flap on an aircraft is in the trail posistion...thus becoming a part of the wing configuration...is not effectivly part of the lifting surface???

Regarding the question about the "N" suggested prefix before the AMA number:

The current rulebook wording is that "It is suggested that the letter "N" be placed in front of the license menumber when the number is affixed to the side of the fuselage or vertical stabilizer".

A rules proposal has been approved by the CL Aerobatics Contest Board to change the above wording to:

"It is suggested that the letters "USA" (25mm (1 inch) or higher) be placed at least once on the model".

This rule will be in effect as of the publication of the 2005 rulebook which should be available shortly after the first of the year.

The wording before was similar to the previous requirements in the FAI F2B rulles. The FAI rules have been changed to use the Olympic standard 3-letter designation for each nation. The wording for the AMA rulebook has been changed to agree with the wording in the FAI rulebook.

Before anybody gets excited about this, the requirement for the previous "N" prefix and now the "USA" prefix applies only in FAI competition. The operative word in the AMA rulebook that applies to AMA competition regarding the use of the prefix is the word "should". It is not necessary to use any prefix when flying in an AMA sanctioned contest. If somebody still wants to use the "N" prefix, they are free to do so. If the model is flown in the FAI F2B event, "USA" must be displayed on the model.

> If the model is flown in the FAI F2B event, "USA"
>must be displayed on the model.

But necessarily in the place of the N. It can be anywhere.

>Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how few planes
>pictured in MA have their AMA numbers attached? In the
>recent mag under the RC Pylon section there is a picture of
>a group of flyers. I can't see any numbers on these planes.
>In most cases CL planes that are shown have the numbers. Is
>this going to be an insurance problem?
>Joe

For the record, Matt uses a scale paint scheme on his planes and "conceals" the AMA number in the ink lines. He just draws his number in outline form on the flap using the pen. It is perfectly legal and perfectly visible to the judges in daylight, but it will not show up in any of the pictures you see of his plane. Essentially, if you stand back a little, you won't see the number even though it is of the proper height and in the proper location.

I got in an argument with my flying partner about AMA numbers and/or ID on the airplane. What people don't realize is that they have to be in a location where they can be seen when required. Radio planes usually have them inside the fuselage on planes where wing is removable. My partner said his where on the inside of the plywood reinformant on his profile carrier. I challenged him to prove it. His number is now on the upper right wing surface. I think control line scale is exempt from license number, but, most incorporate it in the scale number location. Later, -DOC