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4 Minute Motor Crutch

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 46 of 46 known posts recovered

godzilla · Nov 30, 2004 04:44 PM

edited#0 source
First you have to laminate the 4 layers of 1/8" laser cut ply into one single 1/2" thick unit. I use Gorilla glue and clamp the pieces between two 1/4" ply pieces in a bench vice while drying.


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I relieve the area by the tank to a thickness of 1/4".

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The laser cut cross grain filler blocks are added.
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F1 and F2 are snapped into place. Notice that the two firewalls have tabs that snap into the top crutch. There is also downthrust designed into the firewall tab heights.

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Done.

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godzilla · Dec 01, 2004 05:07 PM

#1 source
I guess no one is interested in the crutch.

Huh... bummer.

Larry Cunningham · Dec 01, 2004 05:25 PM

#2 source
Brad, I like it just fine. But I'm a big fan of lasers and lamination..

I will have to try out the Gorilla Glue sometime.

(You have given me an idea for the motor crutch for the Stealth Stunter.)

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself,
but for predecessors as well." -George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2001

LNeumann · Dec 01, 2004 05:41 PM

#3 source
>I guess no one is interested in the crutch.
>
>Huh... bummer.

The big thing on a post like this is not how many comments are made, but how many people read it.

Z2 · Dec 01, 2004 05:55 PM

#5 source
Brad,

I found it pretty cool. It would answer alot of questiong I have concerning making the crutch and it appears much easier to align. One question I have is using alluminum plates under the engine mounts. Would it be more or less succeptable to crushing? I am in the process of laying up parts for my new Impact and would like to use this method.

godzilla · Dec 01, 2004 07:32 PM

#8 source
>Brad,
>
>I found it pretty cool. It would answer alot of questiong I
>have concerning making the crutch and it appears much easier
>to align. One question I have is using alluminum plates
>under the engine mounts. Would it be more or less
>succeptable to crushing?

I have used plates on several planes. I saw no crushing.

If you use inserts instead of blind nuts, the possibility of crushing is gone.

Z2 · Dec 02, 2004 10:46 AM

#19 source
Brad,

Do you still use an alluminum pad under the engine?

ty marcucci · Dec 02, 2004 10:51 AM

edited#20 source
Oh, I'm very interested, but to be honest, my first thought was "plywood, he's kidding". But I read on, and it's in my mind and someday I'll try it. Amzing how neat and precise a laser can make our models. A very definite advantage where close tolerances are needed. I don't anyone on here doesn't read your input. You think just outside the window and that's good for the hobby/sport.

edited for spelling. ps be nice when you judge my flights, after all I did say nice things about you, er, Ya'll

Larry Cunningham · Dec 01, 2004 05:42 PM

#4 source
One thing, I like the "Bob Hunt" molded in curvature fuselage nose method. It saves a whole lot of shaping and sanding on the nose block, and your laser cut, laminated construction on the crutch would be ideal for it - precut the nice curvature.

All sorts of cute things are possible.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died." -Steven Wright

Dick Fowler · Dec 01, 2004 06:01 PM

#6 source
From the posts so far,I figure one plane every 37.5 minutes.....almost as fast as the Yugo production line!

Nice work

Broken Wings · Dec 01, 2004 06:35 PM

#7 source
I can't snap LEGOs together that fast...

I would love to get a DXF file of your model to check out how you did the design. I suspect that may have taken you a little more time.

All I can say is; Dude, You Rock!!!

Regards,
John Jolley

godzilla · Dec 01, 2004 07:35 PM

#9 source
>I can't snap LEGOs together that fast...


Sure you can. Making parts is easy. assemblying and finishing is hard.

>I would love to get a DXF file of your model to check out
>how you did the design. I suspect that may have taken you a
>little more time.

This is the PDF. It is full size and can be taken to the OfficeMax and plotted full size if you wwish. Consider it Freeware.

http://www.egpworld.com/ultrahobby/download/ZONE2.pdf

>
>All I can say is; Dude, You Rock!!!

You should here me play some Judas Priest. I have been in an Iron Maiden phase lately.

Larry Cunningham · Dec 01, 2004 09:15 PM

#10 source
Brad,

Nice PDF, I'll warn you in advance, I'm ripping off your ideas right and left..

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"It is a profitable thing, if one is wise, to seem foolish." -Aeschylus

Iskandar Taib · Dec 01, 2004 09:28 PM

edited#11 source
I am worried about the durability of 4 layers of 1/8" birch ply, though. I remember Bob Bearden selling fast combat kits (his Viper, which looked like a Voodoo) where the mounts were 4 or 5 layers of 1/8" birch ply. After a while, they'd crush. And in a bad crash, break right off. The more usual 3/8" x 3/4" maple bearers most people used were far stronger and more durable. True, no one used metal mounting plates, but Combat planes aren't supposed to last as long as Stunt planes, not by a long shot, and the crushing problem still manifested itself.

godzilla · Dec 02, 2004 08:46 AM

#14 source
>I am worried about the durability of 4 layers of 1/8" birch
>ply, though. I remember Bob Bearden selling fast combat kits
>(his Viper, which looked like a Voodoo) where the mounts
>were 4 or 5 layers of 1/8" birch ply. After a while, they'd
>crush. And in a bad crash, break right off. The more usual
>3/8" x 3/4" maple bearers most people used were far stronger
>and more durable. True, no one used metal mounting plates,
>but Combat planes aren't supposed to last as long as Stunt
>planes, not by a long shot, and the crushing problem still
>manifested itself.

The crutch only transmits forces to the side walls of the fuselage. In this manner it is different than a combat plane crutch, which stands on its own.

I have done several planes with the plywood crutch. All of these planes were for the Saito 72. I have never experienced crushing, but have experienced broken aluminum pads, which apparently means there was certain amount of flex, but given the nature of the Saito 72 and its brutish vibration, the nose construction would need to be substantially upgraded in many areas to be truly bulletproof.

In the case of the RO Jett and PA engines, the nose construction is almost an aside. The vibration is so low and the torque transmition so benign that construction can be a little lighter than say with a ST 60 or Saito 72. If you will notice in the picture, the crutch is relieved to a thickness of 1/4" after F1. I would never do this if I were concerned about forces from the engine.

All of crutches up until the Solace were two layer of 1/4" ply. In the latest cases, I decided to go to 4 layers of 1/8" ply. The crutch does seem to be stiffer and should be much more "dense" with the greater number of plys. The Solace has .2 oz CF mat between each layer of ply, I should think this would suffice for any engine. On the Zone 2 I felt this was simply not necessary and adds needless weight.

Considering that the standard nose construction method has not changed since the Nobler, except for the addition of plywood, I felt that someone should be trying alternatives. I feel that plywood can be stronger than hardwood if sone correctly. I know that laminates are superior in terms of st

I have considered rigging a stress test for laminate members over hardwood, just to compare the true strength, but I have been busy painting the house!!!

DMoon · Dec 02, 2004 10:11 AM

#18 source
I thought you just painted the house??

godzilla · Dec 02, 2004 08:47 AM

#15 source

>Nice PDF, I'll warn you in advance, I'm ripping off your
>ideas right and left..

For you Larry, it is an honor for you to rip me off.

Let me know if I can help.

pipemakermike · Dec 02, 2004 12:37 AM

#12 source
Wow That is a really pretty aeroplane. Pictures of finished models are all very well but a great drawing of a pretty model really butters my parsnip

Dave Moffitt · Dec 02, 2004 07:42 AM

#13 source
Many thanks for the 3-view, I did rip it off..... errrr download it... did I miss ? what engine is that ?
Do not worry about the small number of replies... as Len says lots of people look and do not reply, but are still grateful for your input.
Come to think, I do not post much here myself.... I do go to other boards where the ratio of Lurkers to Posters is MUCH higher...
And I do not consider the term " Lurker " to be an insult.

Imagine how it would be if every-one who looked in posted a reply/critisism/praise......

Mike Alimov · Dec 02, 2004 09:39 AM

#16 source
> I use Gorilla glue

Hmmm... if Godzilla uses Gorilla glue, would a Gorilla use Godzilla glue?

godzilla · Dec 02, 2004 09:53 AM

#17 source
>> I use Gorilla glue
>
>Hmmm... if Godzilla uses Gorilla glue, would a Gorilla use
>Godzilla glue?

The name Godzilla originates from the Japanese word for Gorilla.

Actually, the name comes from Gorilla/Lizard.

I like the glue, but you will need an appropriate dispenser. this is the one I use.

Proparc · Dec 02, 2004 11:00 AM

edited#21 source
My feeling is that the (4) 1/8" ply laminates should be superior to the 1/2 maple. While the last ply that the motor actually sits on may be softer than the maple face, laminates as a rule are tough to beat. I have used ply laminates for a number of structures in my ships and they take care of business. The key is pressure!!

Randy Powell · Dec 02, 2004 11:07 AM

#22 source
Hi Pro,

I went to a one piece CF unit a couple of planes ago. Making molds can be a pain, but once done, it's very easy. I like the carbon units since I don't have access to a laser cutter. They are pretty precise and easy.

Though I'll admit that I would do it 'Zilla's way if I had access to a laser cutter and was any good at all with CAD programs.

Larry Cunningham · Dec 02, 2004 11:28 AM

#23 source
You don't NEED to be "any good" at CAD programs, Randy! Your napkin drawings are already adequate!

Are you "casting in" engine mounting hardware, or machining the mount with a thread afterward?

Do you use some high tech resins, with post curing at elevated temperatures? Is your mold the 3M hard rubber type, a la Windy?

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"The best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas." -Linus Pauling

Randy Powell · Dec 02, 2004 03:51 PM

#24 source
Hi Larry,

I cast in the hardware. Pretty easy since I use a clamp mount so I just need to have the steel inserts far enough apart to allow the engine lugs to fit between them and approximately the right distance from the spinner location (though this is somewhat adjustable after the fact).

I use regular West System epoxy and my own, homemade post cure "oven". I use a hard molding material called QwikSet molding resin from Tap Plastics to make the molds. I've had pretty good luck with it so far. I first tried using a silcon mold, but the need to "squeeze" the thing made me go to a hard mold. It's much more accurate.

I made up plugs that looks something like 'zillas for two different engine widths and "beefiness" (pipe engine and 4 stroke). Sort of a ladder design. A modified version went in the last elliptical plane. I worked out some bugs on that one and the current version went in the USA-1 and the new, as yet unnamed, pipe plane.

As I said, if I had access to a laser cutter and spent some time practicing with a CAD program, I would probably try 'zilla's method. It has the benefit of being pretty easy and very accurate. I've thought about a similar setup before, but without a CAD design file for laser cut parts, it's easier my way.

Hey, I'm all about easy...as long as it's good too.

Iskandar Taib · Dec 04, 2004 10:22 PM

edited#25 source
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Is the crutch to be drilled for the four bolts that go through the engine mounting lugs to hold the engine in place? The crushing I've seen occurs is the wood under the lugs crushing under the tension of these bolts. Are Stunt engines mounted differently?

Randy Powell · Dec 05, 2004 01:19 AM

#26 source
Isky,

Me or 'zilla? Mine is CF and crushing isn't a problem. I suspect that Brad uses aluminum mounting plates.

godzilla · Dec 05, 2004 06:23 AM

#27 source
>Isky,
>
>Me or 'zilla? Mine is CF and crushing isn't a problem. I
>suspect that Brad uses aluminum mounting plates.

No, not anymore. I use brass inserts. It is impossible to crush. The engine is actually sitting on the inserts. No blind nuts!!!

Randy Powell · Dec 05, 2004 09:18 PM

#28 source
Brad,

Watch out for the brass jobs. Some are pretty soft and will strip. I found steel inserts that I like better. But it's probably overkill.

godzilla · Dec 06, 2004 12:39 PM

#33 source
>Brad,
>
>Watch out for the brass jobs. Some are pretty soft and will
>strip. I found steel inserts that I like better. But it's
>probably overkill.

Where?

McMAster Carr had some.

Randy Powell · Dec 06, 2004 03:31 PM

#34 source
Brad,

Truth is, I don't remember. I bought a bunch of stuff from McMaster-Carr, Small Parts, Microfasteners and Micro 100 all about about the same time. I don't remember which the steel 4-40 threaded inserts came from. I'll have to look at the recepits (I always keep the receipts for this reason )

Randy

mpa · Dec 07, 2004 08:22 PM

#41 source
Hi Randy,
Seems to me that you would see some softening of the epoxy due to heat conducted through the engine mounting lugs. The heat deflection temperature of standard West 105 resin is about 120°F; with fillers it's probably a bit higher. ProSet 125/239 resin/hardener with post cure is good for about 180°.
As a precaution I'd be inclined to use stainless steel thread inserts and some stainless shim stock between the engine mounting lugs and the mounting pads- stainless because it's a relatively poor conductor of heat.
Then again, I can't argue with your success!
Derek Moran

Randy Powell · Dec 07, 2004 11:55 PM

#42 source
Derek,

Haven't had a problem yet. I use stainless inserts, so that may help. I also use a machined aluminum clamp setup that likely conducts part of the heat away and into the insets. So far, the system holds up fairly well.

Next iteration will use some high temp Novolac epoxy I picked up the other day for some testing. We'll see what that does, though I'm going to need a better postcure oven.

Sparky12366 · Dec 05, 2004 09:23 PM

#29 source
Well you built a 4 min crutch and 10 min elevators and stab. 5 min flaps,where's the 1 hour plane?

Iskandar Taib · Dec 05, 2004 09:26 PM

#30 source
First he needs the 15 minute fuselage and 20 minute wings...

Sparky12366 · Dec 05, 2004 09:30 PM

#31 source
>First he needs the 15 minute fuselage and 20 minute wings...
>
>

Don't forget the 6 min finish..

Bill Little · Dec 06, 2004 10:11 AM

#32 source
Hey Sparky,
Don't you think a 15 min fuselage is taking a *little* too long if all the parts are already made?

Bill <><

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb

wcrane · Dec 06, 2004 04:15 PM

#35 source
Watch it guys he lies!!!

I know for a fact that Gorilla glue takes a minimum of 4 hours to cure, better overnight.

That would make it at least a 4 hour and 4 minute crutch.

Looks pretty good thought.

From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733

godzilla · Dec 06, 2004 04:40 PM

#36 source
>Watch it guys he lies!!!
>
>I know for a fact that Gorilla glue takes a minimum of 4
>hours to cure, better overnight.
>
>That would make it at least a 4 hour and 4 minute crutch.

Assembly is 4 minutes. Laminating is 4 hours. So, you are right.

Waiting for glue to dry should not count, though.

Bill Little · Dec 06, 2004 06:00 PM

#37 source
I think the laser cut crutch is a good idea. It seems you have solved the only queston I would have; that of wood compression from the engine mounting and running. Pads and steel inserts should solve any of that.
I have probably missed the weight part, but how does it compare with a "standard" Maple/cross grained balsa crutch?
Thanks for sharing this concept.
Bill <><

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb

Sparky12366 · Dec 06, 2004 06:15 PM

#38 source

>I have probably missed the weight part, but how does it
>compare with a "standard" Maple/cross grained balsa crutch?

You know come on Bill...

DMoon · Dec 06, 2004 07:39 PM

#39 source
I held the 4 hour 4 minute crutch today. I think it probably a tad lighter than that of a normal maple crutch. I know it is lighter than the crutch I build.

I am really interested in the Steel Inserts. WHERE do you get those?

I also saw the beginings of the 20 min wing. Very light stuff for sure!

Nice work Brad.

I think you should get on that 1/2A...hee hee hee hee...

Randy Powell · Dec 07, 2004 01:00 PM

edited#40 source
Doug,

Found it finally: http://www.vandykes.com/product/02369210/

4-40x3/8" Steel Inserts. Package of 10 is about 4 bucks.

godzilla · Dec 08, 2004 02:26 PM

#43 source
>Doug,
>
>Found it finally: http://www.vandykes.com/product/02369210/
>
>4-40x3/8" Steel Inserts. Package of 10 is about 4 bucks.

I use these in 6-32. I do not use 4-40's.

http://www.groov-pin.com/thr-tapw.htm

Randy Powell · Dec 08, 2004 11:47 PM

#44 source
'zilla,

Well, 4-40 is the smallest size they sell. The also have 6-32, 10-24, etc. I use the 4-40s since I only use whimpy 56s and small pipe motors. Not the snarling engines real men fly.

godzilla · Dec 09, 2004 10:22 AM

#45 source
>'zilla,
>
>Well, 4-40 is the smallest size they sell. The also have
>6-32, 10-24, etc. I use the 4-40s since I only use whimpy
>56s and small pipe motors. Not the snarling engines real men
>fly.

Might be less likely to strip though.