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Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap?

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 48 of 48 known posts recovered

T.Durrill · Dec 04, 2004 06:10 AM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-04-04 AT 06:40 AM (CST)
 

Amazing deal for someone! The cheapest used Johnson I ever saw was one given to me at no charge in 1965. A control line flier I knew was getting out of model airplanes and into archery. He offered to give me a good condition Johnson Combat Special just to get rid of it. Said it was taking up space in his shop. I agreed that his was a problem that he needed to solve! I still have the engine and it is in good running condition.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5938425647&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT

T.Durrill

tomB · Dec 04, 2004 07:00 AM

#1 source
At about 8:30 EST, there's still over 5 hours of bidding left. That's an eternity in e-bay bidding. It may not stay cheap for long, especially after these posts.

Tom B

jim ivey · Dec 04, 2004 02:10 PM

#2 source
well as yall know i knew those engines pretty well ... i noticed 3 things ... a broken cylinder fin ... and the backcover threads on the case had been drilled or stripped out ... the wrong nva ... all superficial stuff i know ... but it shows lack of care ... you'll find a lot of 32s and 29s drilled out like that for rear mounting for free flights .... but few 35s....jim

tomB · Dec 04, 2004 02:55 PM

#3 source
Yep - still went for $53. It was $22.98 when this thread was first posted.

Tom B

Ted Fancher · Dec 04, 2004 03:27 PM

#4 source
Couple of interesting things I noticed. The backplate does not appear to be OEM. Note that it doesn't match the mating surface on the crankcase. Also, the clearly stripped threads for the back plate bolts.

Another strange thing is the apparent lack of any displacement designation on the little raised flat spot under the exhaust. My memory was that all the Johnsons has their displacement cast in this area.(this is a large case version by the way which places it more in the early '60s era) The esception to that in the early small case engines was the "S" version which had a little "s" stamped in that spot. I believe that was because the original case was for a .35 and when they made the "s" they put a .29 crankshaft in it to reduce the stroke and, consequently, the compression ratio. The actual displacement became .33348 or something and it was probably easier to simply stamp the little "S" on it.

The equivilant engine in the "big case" series was called the Stunt Supreme and although I flew with one at the 1967 Nats I no longer have the engine and can't check whether it had a marking in that location or not.

Ted Fancher

Currell · Dec 04, 2004 11:17 PM

#5 source
Ted: Welcome to the Magical, Mystical world of Johnson engines...I'm still trying to decode all of the variations.

They redesignated cases from their original, intended use on more than one occasion. Hence, you can find Small Case .35s with the "35" machined off, leaving nothing at all. And other similar antics.

On the subject of the fine "S" motors: They can come both with cast in "S", or a kind of crudely stamped "S". I have a cast one on a Super Ringmaster right now, and it really hauls.

And don't get me started on Large Case cooling fin variations...Will drive you to drink, and hold the nitro.

One of my best Johnsons is on a A J Firecat; it is a Large Case Sport Special, plain bearing. This was their belated answer to the low cost motors such as the $5.95 McCoy Redhead .35, and the $11.95 Fox Rocket .35. They didn't sell many.

Jim Ivey: That needle valve assembly on the recently sold ebay Johnson looks stock to me. They came in at least two different versions, both of which have s thick ratcheted barrel nearly the "clicker". Not all have the thin "shaft" (like a 3/4" piece of music wire) stick on the knurled knob at the end. Is this what you were looking for? They usually are "brassy" but not always.

Bruce Brown, in South Carolina, really knows these motors. He used to post here.

Back in the '80s, someone printed a 'zine on Johnsons. It is pretty interesting, with a lot of data and observations. I think something like a three years worth of them were posted. I have a pretty decent set of these.

The S, if mounted profile, is like a Fox, with a bit more power, and also comes with the Dreaded Fox Burp Disease at no extra charge.

Johnsons...excellent CL motors in their day, poorly advertised and marketed. My take, anyway...

Currell

Currell · Dec 04, 2004 11:30 PM

#6 source
Ted: I just ran out to the shop, and checked my NIB Stunt Supreme. It has absolutely nothing on the side, only the blank, machined off circle on the case. However, I have another one, with the "SS" stamped on. And, surely, someone has one with cast "SS" letters.

I have a four bolt head .32, with cast numbers. And a six bolt head .32, stamped numbers.

The Combat Specials ("CS") that I have seen has cast letters. But surely someone has one stamped. Somewhere...

By the way, I think that the final price for the ebay motor, with the broken fin, was market correct, given its flaws.

Currell

Ted Fancher · Dec 05, 2004 11:36 AM

#7 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-04 AT 11:44 AM (CST)
 
>Ted: I just ran out to the shop, and checked my NIB Stunt
>Supreme. It has absolutely nothing on the side, only the
>blank, machined off circle on the case. However, I have
>another one, with the "SS" stamped on. And, surely, someone
>has one with cast "SS" letters.
>
>I have a four bolt head .32, with cast numbers. And a six
>bolt head .32, stamped numbers.
>
>The Combat Specials ("CS") that I have seen has cast
>letters. But surely someone has one stamped. Somewhere...
>
>By the way, I think that the final price for the ebay motor,
>with the broken fin, was market correct, given its flaws.
>
>Currell

Hi Currell,

It's fun going back in time like this. I know well (although perhaps not having owned as many examples as you) that the Johnson engines were a "varietal" assortment. As I understand it the little case "s" came about when George Aldrich was talking with Hi about a good stunt engine with a little more "poop" than the Fox (maybe when the Nobler was in one of its "growth" stages). George felt (properly I think) that the .35 was too hot an engine for stunt. This was probably the result of the very high compression ratio that worked great for flat out two stroke runs in combat ships (see Riley Wooten) but gave way too hard a break for stunt.

Hi is supposed to have married the .29 crank (which produced a stroke of 0.718") with the rest of a .35 (bore of 0.750), and reduced the compression ratio from 11.2 to one down to 6.5 to one. This C.R. was simply the result of the fact that the piston didn't go as far up in the sleeve with the shorter throw crank.

It apparently worked great (a fact I can vouch for) and the "s" was born. As you suggest, it was easier to simply file off the cast .35 from the side of the case and stamp it with the little "s".

I have no idea if George ever used the resulting hermaphrodite but I'll bet there is someone on here that will know.

I still have my original "s" and hope to install it in a Ruffy for VSC this year. I flew a Ruffy at my first Nats as a Junior in 1959. That one had a Fox in it that blew a crankshaft during a practice flight the night before the Finals (in those days, as Currell probably knows, we had so many Junior flyers you had to have qualiflying rounds )

The shaft blew during the overhead eights and the prop just started windmilling creating a ton of drag. Instead of simply flying out of the overhead and landing the darn thing nearly stopped straight overhead. I was able to run and catch it just before impact but wasn't able to get it turned quickly enough to keep from tearing the wing mounted gear out of it.

Oh, boy. Engine shot, toy airplane broke bad and only hours to go before the finals. A nats story repeated probably thousands of times over the years.

Duke Fox, always in the market for a good "Fox" story, looked me up and took my engine for a rebuild. Bill and Betty Bell (a then pretty well known husband and wife free flight team) stopped by my table in the work hangar (one of the biggest losses of the modern Nats era) and offered to teach me the wonders of fiber glassing broken parts into reasonably functional aircraft structures.

Bill and Betty stayed up late to get the structure rebuilt; I stayed up all night to get the torn out areas recovered and a couple of coats of dope on them; and, early the next morning, Duke showed up with the rebuilt engine that he had fitted "a little bit loose" and the advice to "run a couple of tanks through it before you fly. Then, go out and win one for the gipper"...or something like that.

Well, the perfect end to the story would have been a Junior National Championship (and might well have if the following hadn't happened). But, the first flight the predictable happened, the engine overheated and quit early in the flight. Ran a couple more tanks through it and came out for my last official. In those "olden" days the finals were just like the rulebook, two officials, best single flight counts. I wasn't out of it yet.

Well, the engine ran better for most of the flight and the pattern was going well but toward the end of the flight the engine started to heat up and sag. I don't recall whether it was before or after the cloverleaf. At any rate the engine slowed almost to an idle and I had no choice but to land under power. Unfortunately the engine didn't quit but instead continued at low speed and taxied the airplane around...and around...and around for a huge number of laps (probably only a dozen or so but it seemed like forever)

When it finally quit, it was long past the end of the eight minute limit. Alas, no pattern points. Don't remember if I ever tried to do the math (I'm sure I did and the fact that I don't remember probably means I wouldn't 'a won anyway) but even with the loss of those 25 points I ended up in sixth place which, considering the trauma that preceded it, wasn't half bad. I do know that it was the only time a young friend from Seattle, Dick Gilbert, ever beat me and he came in third. Never let me forget it.

I wonder if Dick's still out there somewhere?

Sorry....everybody's got stories that are more valuable to them than others.

Fly Stunt

Ted Fancher

p.s. Oops, almost forgot. The "s" that's going into my Ruffy is the same engine I was using in the Ares I built right after that Nats. (Having succombed to the aura of Bill W. and his little blue one that won the Walker Cup that year) The same engine I was using when Shareen and I started going out in 1960. Has a lot of good memories going for it. It has been reconditioned in an unusual manner because it got hard to start late in its life. The cylinder has been rehoned and the piston chromed and fitted. This is an really unusual approach to the usual chromed sleeve vice piston and I've got my fingers crossed it will work OK metallurgically.

Anybody experienced such a mod? Good? Bad?

Bill Little · Dec 05, 2004 11:50 AM

#8 source
Hi Ted,

Great story. Too bad the "modern 'NATS'" are not more like the old hanger days. Of course I don't believe that at our young ages we could really bear a week of "all nighters" working on our toys anymore! hahahaha

As to your chromed piston: I am pretty sure that is what Mr. Blackburn does when he refits an engine. Haven't ever heard of a problem with his work.

I just got a Johnson 35 from Eddy R. that he used for several wins at KOI in OTS. I hope to have it in a cheek cowl Barnstormer before the next contest season is over.

Best Holiday wishes to all!
Bill <><

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb

EddyR · Dec 06, 2004 06:58 AM

#19 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-04 AT 06:23 AM (CST)
 
Bill That Johnson 35 you got from me has a lot of history. I won old time at the KOI five years in a row with that motor in a All American Sr and a Curtis Swift. Won over 30 old time contests with it.That motor is a very early one and it is very much like a Orwick. It uses a lot more fuel that a Fox 35. It can be restricted down to get better fuel milage. I was given that and five other Johnson all brand new. The paper work that came with them said no break in required. The motors were very tight and I broke in two the old way with lots of bench running.I kept one and gave all the others away to local flyers except one 4 bolt chrome case .29 I sold to George Aldrich. Many people here on the East coast remember that All American as it was Yellow silk green trim with Wheel Pants on it.
Ed

Bill Little · Dec 06, 2004 07:38 AM

#20 source
Hi Ed,
How much fuel if running 5-29 would you expect to need for OTS? Classic?
I have 10-25 right now, Sig all castor. You think 25% all castor is safe for the Johnson? I dure don't want to wear it out!
Thanks,
Bill <><

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb

EddyR · Dec 06, 2004 11:08 AM

#22 source
Bill In later years I ran 20% oil half an half. I used a three ounce tank and could not get through the classic pattern.The plane was built for a Fox 35 and it would do the classic pattern ok .When put the Johnson in it and I no longer could get through the classic pattern so the plane got used for old time only for a long time. Later I restricted it and it then would make it in Classic.I ran the motor very rich with small props on it.
Ed

Bigiron13 · Dec 05, 2004 01:34 PM

#12 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-04 AT 01:35 PM (CST)
 
I had a couple of K & B green heads done that way and it was a disaster. Chrome came off in spots. GMA stripped the pistons and chromed the sleeves and they worked fine. BUT I have an old ignition Madewell 49 that Don Blackburn chromed the piston on and it is doing fine. I would imagine that the success of ANY chroming is directly dependent upon how well the chromer does the job.

Bigiron
PS Merry Christmas to you and Shareen and thanks for all that BOTH of you do and have done for PAMPA.

B

Bigiron13

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 10:56 PM

#32 source
well ted ya should have talked to me....i would have given you a well seasoned engine to use...bill and beatty were friends of mine also...i met them at th dallas nats...in 56...i wouldnt have remebered their name though...then u mentioned them...usta see em once a year...from pennsylvania i think...i last saw them at the 1970 nats in chicago...i saw a number of old friends there...i was just a spectator...jim

jim ivey · Dec 05, 2004 12:19 PM

#9 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-04 AT 12:28 PM (CST)
 
currel
johnson needle valves had a brass thimble that was saw split after it was tapped...i've made 100s of them...the same old "orwick" needle valve assembly...it was never changed that i know of...geeeze give me a break...some of these guys know i worked for dynamic models from 1955-1962...im not wrong about that needle valve assembly...i may have even had my hands on that particular engine at sometime during its production...lol...after 62 i dont know what changes Hi made...but any changes would NOT have been used on that engine...jim
ps ..i also worked for henry too

Ted Fancher · Dec 05, 2004 12:22 PM

#10 source
>currel
> johnson needle valves had a brass thimble that was saw
>split after it was tapped...i've made 100s of them...the
>same old "orwick" needle valve assembly...it was never
>changed that i know of...geeeze give me a break...some of
>these guys know i worked for dynamic models from
>1955-1962...im not wrong about that needle valve
>assembly...i may have even had my hands on that particular
>engine at sometime during its production...lol...after 62 i
>dont know what changes Hi made...but any changes would NOT
>have been used on that engine...jim

Hey, Jim.

From your association with Johnson, can you shed any light on the origin of the little "s" engine?

Ted

Crash2much · Dec 05, 2004 12:57 PM

#11 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 03:45 PM (CST)
 
I have a new Johnson 35 that has a green crackle paint finish on the case. Would this have been done at Dynamic or by private party? It really is a good looking engine but not like any of the green anodized versions that I have.

Bill

I build more planes than I fly, collect more engines than I'll ever use. That about says it, right?

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 03:20 AM

#15 source
that if it is real...would be among th very first johnsons...orwicks had that paint...has to have a black oxide cylinder though to be authentic!...jim

ucflier · Dec 05, 2004 03:55 PM

#13 source
Hey Currell:

I am still here - not getting much modeling time these days due to a change in jobs.

I agree with your insights on the Johnsons. I wish we could have interviewed many of Hi's employees and compiled their observations in a volume for posterity. The sense I have gotten from the few comments made by those who were "really there" was that Hi operated an extremely "flexible" manufacturing operation. Came up with a new model - pull those cases off the shelf, machine the displacement numbers off, and stamp the new designation on there until we can get some cases with cast-in numbers made. One of the best examples of this is your Sport Special. At the point Hi was making these, the other main products were the J/BB and J/RC - all sharing a common case. The early Sport Specials have full-height venturis; the later ones have short, squared off venturis with a flat area machined on the front of the exhaust stack just above. The early cases were modified to accept the AM-1 carburetor for the RC version; the later cases were all built to allow the fitting of the carb - control line models ended up with short venturis.

I do not agree with the comment below on the needles. The brass "knob type" needles were earlier production; the serrated barrel type were the later items. I have a number of the barrel type units in original Johnson packaging, so I am fairly confident in this assertion (I guess as confident as I can be when it comes to Johnsons!!).

Good to "talk" with you again.

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 03:23 AM

#16 source
ss stood for stunt/supreme

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 04:35 AM

#35 source
currel...i went back and looked at that engine again....i didnt have any part in building that one...it was produced after 1962 so maybe that nva was correct for that one...i also noticed a small "DM" below johnson...i dont remember that either on the new case engines...Hi may have put that on after he bought the company back from whitehead or maybe i just forgot...i could be wrong about th nva also....its easy to settle look in an old mag and at the rc craburetor see if that has a straight knurl needle valve thimble with a clip like that...if so maybe its that memory again...like like i said its been over 42 years since i worked there....jim

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 05:14 PM

#27 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 05:16 PM (CST)
 
Ted....the big case had S/S and C/S raised..ooops R/C also

elmores · Dec 06, 2004 02:28 AM

#14 source
I bought two Johnson small case 35's from toyelf on Ebay a year or so ago - cosmetically poor but fine in the important areas -$32 and $37 respectively.

One has an angular head shape - the other has rounded edges - what's the info?

Tony

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 04:01 AM

#17 source
the round heads went with the old case aka small case...when th mold was changed they became squareheads...thats what i called them....

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 04:12 AM

#18 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 12:53 PM (CST)
 
show me a pic and i'll identify it for ya....i can probably tell you about what year it was made....jim
p.s.unless jack garcia is out there lurkin...im the only one left who was there through it all

Currell · Dec 06, 2004 10:17 AM

#21 source
Bill: If you have a green crackle Johnson that is original, you have a rare and valuable engine. The paint came off quickly.

Even Johnsons with just a hint of remaining green are unusual. Currell

Cary · Dec 06, 2004 02:25 PM

#23 source
Is the same true for Orwicks? I have a .32 that has just a few marks on the paint. If I run it will the paint be lost?

Cary

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 03:52 AM

#33 source
nahhh mine never did

Currell · Dec 07, 2004 08:15 AM

#36 source
>Is the same true for Orwicks? I have a .32 that has just a
>few marks on the paint. If I run it will the paint be lost?

Cary: You run the risk of slowly losing the paint if you run it.

Currell

EddyR · Dec 06, 2004 03:09 PM

#24 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-04 AT 06:24 AM (CST)
 

Ed

Crash2much · Dec 06, 2004 03:39 PM

#25 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 08:00 PM (CST)
 
.

Bill

I build more planes than I fly, collect more engines than I'll ever use. That about says it, right?

EddyR · Dec 06, 2004 05:51 PM

#28 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-04 AT 12:27 PM (CST)
 

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 04:02 AM

#34 source
the very first green cases may have had green heads...jim

elmores · Dec 06, 2004 03:46 PM

#26 source
Here are pics of my 2!

I also have a 29.

I will have to wait until I can fly somewhere unsilenced before I use them.

An El Diablo would be nice.

50plusAirYears · Dec 06, 2004 06:46 PM

#29 source
Got one for free from Johnson about 1966. Shaft broke during break-in, so I sent it back to them along with a description of what I was doing, and the fuel I was using (20%medicinal castor, 80% methyl alcohol, shot of Zippo lighter fluid). About a week after I sent it back, a new flyer got on base and joined the club. Told him about the engine, and he told me I might be SOL, since Johnson had gone out of business several months earlier. We didn't get too much up-to-date news at Wheelus AFB.
So, about a month later, I got a box from stateside, not only containing a repaired and broken in 35CS, but as an apology, a nice hand-written letter and a NIB 35CS to go with it. Broke the new shaft again about a month later when the down line on a Combat Cat decided to part ways. Flying over asphalt. Also broke the crankcase and the plane.
Engine actually wasn't free, cost me APO postage stateside to return the original.

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 07:30 PM

#31 source
ha ha ha ha ha ....jack loved his correspondence....a good guy...yep he would do that!!

Jeff W · Dec 09, 2004 07:04 PM

#43 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-04 AT 07:06 PM (CST)
 
> Broke the new shaft again about a month later when
>the down line on a Combat Cat decided to part ways. Flying
>over asphalt. Also broke the crankcase and the plane.

That brings back one of my memories. Back about'65 I had a Johnson Stunt Supreme in a new stunter with just a few flights at a contest at Mankato Minnesota. Pretty plane done in automotive paint, but way heavy---like 60 oz. It was windy and I had the SS running too fast. While doing outside loops it really wound up and the controls failed-----Straight in to CONCRETE. Picking up the pieces we found the thrust washer setup and the threaded end of the shaft, and the case but no shaft! Turns out it punched back shearing the rod, punching through center of the backplate (which stayed on the case) and through the front of the tank, ending up completely inside. Impact does strange things.

Oh, by the way. Kwik Links had just come out and I had ignorantly used them throughout. The drive link at the flap horn was what failed.
Shades of the ARF Noblers!

Jeff

jim ivey · Dec 06, 2004 06:55 PM

#30 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-04 AT 07:01 PM (CST)
 
let me see 2 pics...both pointed right and both pointed left...thanx jim

elmores · Dec 07, 2004 11:26 AM

RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3F#37 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-07-04 AT 11:28 AM (CST)
 
ARE THES OK?

Steve Lotz · Dec 07, 2004 07:44 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#38 source
I'll swear that there are more Johnson engines missing their original needle valve assemblies than any other make. Anybody have any idea why? Weren't they any good?

Steve

Bigiron13 · Dec 07, 2004 09:00 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#39 source
My experience with them in combat was that the steel needle pressed into the brass ratchet would come loose and start slipping in and out so the needle setting would change. most of us would go to the Fox "T" needle or an OS MAX.

Bigiron

Bigiron13

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 10:29 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#41 source
combat huh?....do you know my old buddie riley?

Bigiron13 · Dec 10, 2004 09:30 AM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#45 source
Yes, I know Riley. He and I are good friends.
Bigiron

Bigiron13

jim ivey · Dec 14, 2004 01:53 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#47 source
big iron...ask him about me catchin his airplane...jim

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 10:25 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#40 source
a lot of people didnt like them....Hi refused to change them because he claimed they were more accurate...his arguement was one click could be to rich or to lean...thinkin back on it the cost of switching over and new tooling...probably also wieghed in....jim

jim ivey · Dec 07, 2004 11:55 PM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#42 source
well they look pretty much the same to me...both "oldstyle" cases...as for the heads...on #1 the flash was filed off in a 3 jaw chuck not real uniform...#2 a later head...looks like it was done with a form tool...both made between 56-58...thats my best guess...58/59 the "oldstyle" case mold was changed...jim

Currell · Dec 10, 2004 09:21 AM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#44 source
Jim: These days, we call them Small Case and Large Case.

Currell

jim ivey · Dec 14, 2004 05:46 AM

RE: RE%3A Have you ever seen a Johnson .35 sell this cheap%3#46 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-04 AT 05:48 AM (CST)
 
currel,
...there were 4 cases as i recall...#1 greencase i believe was an investment mold....#2 old case (later called "oldstyle") highspeed die cast mold....#3 new case(later called new oldstyle)same mold reworked...#4 the "bulldog" or "new case" so called be cause it was a new mold (i guess this was later called th big case)....i'm probably the only one left alive who knows this and why lol...so how would you differentiate between the 3 very different small cases? green, old and new small case?....newcase/bigcase is easy there was only one.....jim