Quality Flying Lines

I was wondering if anyone could recomend a company or site that sells a quality set of .015 60' flying lines. The kind I have are poor quality pre-made ones that have one line 3 inches longer then the other and they have kinks in them from the tiny reel they came on. I am looking to buy 2 sets and also wanted a couple of good quality flying handles. I sent in an order and wrote an email the next day to http://www.tomsbuildingservice.biz about a week or so ago but never got any product or response from the site hosts. Not sure if they are on vacation, out of buisness or what. Kinda bummed because the lines and handles they were selling sounded great.

Any suggestions?

Robert,

Yeah, sometimes Tom is a little busy. He is the primary guy responsible for putting out Stunt News, so I regard slathering his name out there alongside a whine about not getting an answer as quickly as you would like to be quite bad form indeed.

Tom's lines are real good and neatly done. Worth contacting him again.

Tom has had a problem with his phone lines. I can assure you that he is still in business and makes the best lines in the business. Try him again, I finally had to send him an email with my phone number and he responded the same day, Dave Markley

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-04 AT 11:23 AM (CST)
 
deleated...sorry

Mr. 1969 NATS
Bob Lampione
You probably didn't get an answer right away because he's putting together the Jan/Feb issue of Stunt News to go to the printer.
Bob

Suggest you try Tom again.
He is always responsive to our requests, your message may not have gone through.
R....

At some juncture, you may want to create your own lines.....these "kits" are available from dealers that handle Brodak or SIG products. Or, you can purchase bulk wire from Tom or Brodak, as well as tapping a source: New Jersey Strand and Cable vends much of what we use.

See Ya

McMaster-Carr sells it all, and Riley Wooten (Lone Star Balsa) sells cable in bulk, too.

Tom Morris is the way to go, he does a great job.

Tom Morris' 19 strand lines are really nice. I emailed him that he must have been a fly fisherman the way he ties those ends so beautifully. No, I don't make fishing flys, but my pastor does, and it appears to be quite an art.
Glen

>Tom Morris' 19 strand lines are really nice. I emailed him
>that he must have been a fly fisherman the way he ties those
>ends so beautifully. No, I don't make fishing flys, but my
>pastor does, and it appears to be quite an art.
>Glen

Actually, Kent Tysor (KBT Lines) had been doing all the lines for Tom. I hope he is still doing them. A local boy, and past NATS Advanced winner.
Bill <><

Went ahead and sent Tom another email.

Randy Powell has been flying with Tom's 19 strand lines, and kindly allowed me to get touchy-feely with them on two occasions. Smooth and soft, like...well, never mind.

I would say, however, that for sport flying on either grass or asphalt, I like a shiny silver line, not the bronze finished lines. They simply show up better, and so are less likely to get stomped on. Green grass, brown grass, asphalt, they show up best. RSM sells such cable in bulk spools, which makes them pretty cheap.

Unfortunately, I don't have a long/flat area available to make up lines. Any good ideas to work around this problem would be appreciated. I'm thinking that two or more "turnarounds" might be workable. Indoors, preferred. It's been raining for a week, with a string of "Pineapple Express" storms coming from Hawaii for at least a week more. Steve

http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

"Git 'er done!" - Larry the Cable Guy

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-04 AT 11:18 PM (CST)
 
Bud Bodzioch makes lines in his basement. He's got a steel pillar about 28 feet from his worktable. The lines go around the pillar. He's got something to peg one end of the lines to, and then markings on the table for slightly different lengths of line (I suppose one could use a measuring tape to set up the markings) to measure the other end.

Are Morris's 19 strand lines bronze colored? The ones I have are silver colored, I think - he does sell brown colored wire but it is 7 strand. Lone Star sells the brown stuff, too.

I think the bronze ones are the seven strand ones that used to be sold as johnsons core cable; I liked them.

>I think the bronze ones are the seven strand ones that used
>to be sold as johnsons core cable; I liked them.

Hi "Mr. Chan",

I'm glad to see the mule cart incident didn't leave you too damaged!
Bill <><

>Randy Powell has been flying with Tom's 19 strand lines, and
>kindly allowed me to get touchy-feely with them on two
>occasions. Smooth and soft, like...well, never mind.
>
>I would say, however, that for sport flying on either grass
>or asphalt, I like a shiny silver line, not the bronze
>finished lines. They simply show up better, and so are less
>likely to get stomped on. Green grass, brown grass, asphalt,
>they show up best. RSM sells such cable in bulk spools,
>which makes them pretty cheap.
>
>Unfortunately, I don't have a long/flat area available to
>make up lines. Any good ideas to work around this problem
>would be appreciated. I'm thinking that two or more
>"turnarounds" might be workable. Indoors, preferred. It's
>been raining for a week, with a string of "Pineapple
>Express" storms coming from Hawaii for at least a week more.
> Steve
>
>http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html
>
>"Git 'er done!" - Larry the Cable Guy

STEVE, STEVE, STEVE,....here in Portland we have covered outdoor Basketball courts at ALL of the Grade Schools. Don't you? SO nice to do lines. But you say you don't have a flat area? Make some up at the contest that you CD. Rain won't hurt the lines. Even though it's raining Pineapples. OH you can go to a school after all of the kids are gone and do lines (CONTROL LINES) inside....just some things.

Scott(got the answers)Riese

I very seriously doubt that anyone making up line sets on a commercial basis is doing so in a building with 70-plus lineal feet of unobstructed space.

First thing would be to buy a 100-foot tape, one of those things on a reel and with a winding handle. I see them around in cheapie tool bins for three or four bucks. One is used for my stooge line, as the tape is easy to see in the grass, doubles as a check on length of various line sets I'm fiddling with for contest models.

Is it possible to weigh a line reel, add a known length of two lines, weigh the reel again and have a good-enough idea of what to shoot for with next set(s) of lines? I'll bet this would work for sport flying, where the tolerance can be plus or minus a foot or so without causing problems.

Yeah, yeah, weight *just the lines,* no terminations as this is a variable depending upon how many wraps one uses. And if wishing 58-foot lines, add two feet to each end for handling, being sure to consume that extra two feet when making up the ends of the lines.

Out flying, use stooge line/tape measure to confirm or refute the process.

But what a clever guy like Steve is going to do is rob soft, rubber-tired wheels from some neighborhood urchin's toy car, preferably something large enough for said urchin to ride. He will stick suitable axles in a twobuhfour, such that the tires meet with light pressure. Knowing the circumference of at least one wheel, he'll place a mark on the rim, shoot line through until he's got the desired length, plus extra at each end for handling and terminations.

I don't have such a setup, but I'm thinking that with just a little care the lines would not only match each other pretty accurately, the expected tolerances for length could easily be in fractions of an inch.

And the poor baby wouldn't get wet...

Dan

P.S. Yes, of course there would need to be some guides, maybe even a crank handle. Knock yourself out and install a counter. Digital readout of course; it will contrast nicely with the weathered chunk of wood to which all this crap is attached.

This is not directly on topic, but might be interesting to some of you. Back when I was in the kite business, I invented and manufactured the device pictured below. The Equalizer is a tool for comparing the length of flying lines for dual-line and quad-line stunt kites. Properly trimmed lines are just as important in the competition kite world as it is in control line stunt.
Spectra and Kevlar lines are relatively stretchy and are very difficult to tie to equal length unaided, especially as they are in lengths of 80-120 feet. The Equalizer allows you to directly compare the line length while applying equal tension to both lines. Any difference in length is indicated by the pointer on the crank. In practice, both lines are terminated and one end of each is staked to a common point. The other ends are put over the arms of the Equalizer, one finger put through the ring hole and tension of 15 or 20 pounds applied (yes, I have since learned about Newtons). The ring aligns directly with the stake at the far end of the lines, thus centering the scale.
A device similar to this could be used to aid fabrication of our control lines. . .
Derek Moran

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 08:54 PM (CST)
 
That's a neat tool. How did you adjust the loops once they'd been tied? With CL lines, most people use adjustable handles, so it isn't a problem, but I always tried to get my lines exactly the same length. I used to make up lines at the field using a fixture which was simply a few nails banged into a board. Slip the loops of bopth lines over one nail. It was pretty easy to get both lines the same length, at least to maybe 1/16". I'd make maybe a half dozen sets at a time.

Thanks Iskander, it is a neat tool- sold a lot of them.
To adjust a kite line you'd simply un-tie and re-tie as necessary to get the length right. For C/L applications you'd probably want to clamp the lines to the arm and mark the lines equidistant from the origin.
Another possiblity uses Dan's idea of a turnaround pulley. Suppose we're making lines 60' long and we're taking line from a bulk spool: 1) terminate the end of the line 2) run out 122-123 feet of line, cut and terminate that end 3) stake both terminated ends to a common point (you now have a big loop of wire) 4) put the turnaround pully in the loop and pull to apply equal tension to both lines 5) pinch both lines together at 60' and make a mark across both lines 6) cut the loop and terminate each line to the marks.
Derek

LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-04 AT 08:18 PM (CST)
 
I use to do this with a screwdriver - I had my nails in the board at one end. I'd make up one loop at the end of the wire, hook it up on one of the nails, run the spool around to the other end, loop it around the handle of the screwdriver that was in the ground, run it back to the fixture, cut the wire, make a loop, slip it over the same nail, go back to the other end, cut the wire in half, make the two loops at the other end, then spool it up. It works OK if your spool of wire is small (5,000 feet or less) but it got to be a pain when I got my hands on 12,000 feet of .018 wire once (galvanized, by the way, not stainless!). For that spool I found a cardboard box of the right size, punched two holes in it and put a 1/2" dowel through the hub of the spool and the box holes so I could just pull on the wire and it would unreel. So I changed my procedure - I'd make up one loop, drag it over to the fixture at the far end, put the loop over a nail, walk back to the box, cut the wire, make a second loop, then walk over back to the fixture, slip the loop over the nail, and then, back at the box, cut the other end. Two loops later, I'd roll up the lines.

But using a pulley, I could've saved a couple of trips, I guess.. Just walk over to the mark pulling the wire on the pulley.

Incidentally, Bob Bearden had a modified film editing machine which he used to measure out 1000' of wire at a time. That's how he'd subdivide his 23,000 foot spools into 1000 foot spools. I wonder how McMaster Carr ships 1000' of wire - do you get the small, 6" spool or a big 10" one?

I bought 18 pounds of .018" from Strandflex years ago. It was labeled as 26,100 feet (4.94 miles). I just spooled it out behind my car, Algonac to Marine City. Perfect !!! Honest measure.

The weight calculates out to 0.1 ounces = 92.5 feet. It would be very difficult to make a set of lines by weight alone.

Found out what happenend

I made a typo on my address and my order went someplace else. Guessing it went to one of my honest neighbor's houses and they of coarse brought it right over after noticing it didn't have their name on it. I went ahead and re-ordered and corrected the address. Should have the lines in a few days.

>Tom Morris' 19 strand lines are really nice. I emailed him
>that he must have been a fly fisherman the way he ties those
>ends so beautifully. No, I don't make fishing flys, but my
>pastor does, and it appears to be quite an art

As to measuring and cutting my lines, I have only bought "unfinished" lines in either 60' or 70' lengths (Sig or Brodak). I have a small finish nail drove in the trash can holder at the back porch. I make up the ends that are "available" then hook them on the nail. I unreel them along with my 100' steel tape measure down the driveway. While holdong them tight, I make a Sharpie line across both at the finished length I want. I reel them back up with the already made ends on the spool. Now I can make loops with my jeweler's pliers and finish off the "new" ends.
I need to get a bulk supply.
Bill <><

I need to get a bulk supply.
>Bill <><
>
Bill,
Tom Morris sells bulk.
19 strand .015 & .018,
7 strand .008
.012 & .014 solid
Roger

I have just today received a package from Tom Morris with 2 sets of 0.015" X 60' and 2 sets 0.018"X 66' Really well made and I am looking forward to using them Only ordered them 12 days ago and they made it all the way over from the colonies in that time including the making.

Regards

Mike

There was someone selling brass-coated steel wire in the UK years ago. I had the address on my web site.

I think PAW still sells "Staystrate" line - soldered steel. Supposedly very low stretch, someone in the PacNW uses it.

I've got about 75% of a roll of that in my shop. Bought personally from Richard Wilkins. .015" of course.

It's unusual stuff. I used in F2d for years.

I plan to run strength tests on that and Strandflex this winter.

All of our load assumptions are based on a consistant 280,000 psi. That's almost too good to be true.

The old stuff was called Laystrate. No need to run a test - American stainless steel lines are a lot weaker, or at least, they saw through a lot easier. The Laystrate's like a buzz saw in comparison.

There's also the European 4 strand .015 brown carbon steel wire which is a lot stronger than the American stainless, but I don't know if it's any stronger than Laystrate/Staystrate.

The GOLD line from Wilkins is NOT Laystrate.

I have some Laystrats. 3-strand for F2d and 7-strand for Fast. Nasty stuff. Does not lay very straight after the first line tangle. Good for cutting the other guy's lines, but only one tangle per set of Lays.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-04 AT 11:20 PM (CST)
 
Oh OK, I misread that. You were referring to the brass plated stuff I mentioned earlier, not the staystrate, which I also mentioned in the same post. I can't remember who was selling the brass plated stuff, it's on my old web page - someone sent me email and asked to be put on the list of suppliers. I think this was in 1994 or 95. I don't know if Wilken's wire would be the same stuff, it's certainly possible. How many strands? If you're going to compare them with Stainless wire, might as well see if you can test the current Russian brown wire, too. I'd love to see what results you get - I keep telling people that our stainless steel lines aren't really all that strong - Berkeley sold the .018 stainless wire as 45 pound test fishing line. IIRC the .015 was only rated at 30 lb. test.

Whatever happened to Richard Wilkens? Lots of mentions in the magazines, and all of a sudden, nothing. I still have the old Superstar II plans he mailed me when I was in high school. I might build another one sometime.

Mack Henry brought a huge spool of .019 Laystrate back with him from Europe one year. I don't know if this was the standard "heavy weight" 7 strand. No idea where he got it. I bought some off him, still have a couple sets left. I remember they were heavy and whipped around a lot in the switchbacks. Needed to add tipweight to the planes.

Incidentally, I once talked to Strandflex about getting some brass-coated wire made - it wasn't a standard product in the small sizes, and would have taken some doing, though they do advertise it on their web page. I was also interested in 3 strand, since it would possibly stand up to sawing better, like the Euro 4 strand.

Turns out Strandflex isn't the only "secret" source of our wire, either - Bob Bearden told me he actually had four sources. I went looking around and found one more that no one knew about, and there is, of course, Jersey Strand and Cable, which people DO know about (don't know if this was a Bear supplier, though). Jersey has such stuff as .008 (almost bought a spool of this) and solids. I don't know if Bearden dealt with Sevenstrand, that would have been a possible fourth source. The brown wire Riley Wooten sells is from Sevenstrand, and Bear was selling brown wire for a while.

My method of making lines was to hook a line clip to the fence, Make up one end on the line spool, attach the end to the line clip, run the line along the garage wall to a mark placed on the wall, cut the line off long, repeat. That gives me 2 lines slightly longer then needed. Allowing about 4" for the ends, cut both lines equally. Make both remaining ends and they usually come out dead even.