Flying in cold weather

I'm new to Minnesota coming from California, and I'd like to try putting some ski's on a couple of my planes and fly during the winter.
How does the cold affect the running of the engines?? I will be running Cox .049's and a OS .25.

Thanks,
Rob Johnson
Foley,Mn.

Rob:

Welcome to Minnesota. If you can make about a 45 minute drive next thursday evening, we'd love to see you at the next meeting of the Minneapolis Piston Poppers, Inc. You can E-mail me at [email protected] for directions. We usually meet the 4th thursday of the month but we're on the 16th this month due to holidays. We do have a club field in Brooklyn Park (a NW suburb) and fly there Sundays and after 4pm Wed's in season.

We also have a traditional New Years Day "Ironman" fun fly at the Blaine sports complex. Cocoa, chili, munchies supplied and every one tries for at least one flight. Again, just E-mail for details. Look down at the thread "latest flying session" and there's a picture of last year including a flying snow shovel.

As to skies: I've never tried it. Between frozen lakes and plowed parking lots regular wheels work out fine most of the time. I've seen a few skies but not usually with much success. Mostly, if you are on snow, just remove the gear and hand launch if that's possible.

Starters and good starting batteries help like mad in the cold. A bit more nitro helps runs but if you have a hot enough plug you'll do fine. A few ounces of something hot like Cox Racing for priming helps too. Cold air gives more power and an overweight ship will turn like it's on a diet when the temp is 15 degrees.

In any case, we're less than an hour apart. Give a holler and we'll get together!

Jeff Welliver

I am still IN California, can't get out!!! I used to drive truck 40 years ago, coast-to-coast. We had a 2-day 'layover' in Minnesota, and I found a hobby shop. Went C/L flying with a nice young man and both of us flipped that prop 'til we were blue. Finally went inside his house, next to the field, started it in the kitchen, went back out, topped it off, connected the lines, and flew through a whole quart of fuel. McCoy .19, and it started every time after the initial "cold-start".
Say, anybody know of the Great Mall in Minnesota? My wife is going there to do a Job Seminar, and would like to know if there is a hobby shop there.

> Say, anybody know of the Great Mall in Minnesota? My wife
>is going there to do a Job Seminar, and would like to know
>if there is a hobby shop there.

Yep, I expect it's the largest tourist attraction in the state. Being shopaphobic myself, I avoid it like the plague. But it's pretty amazing and certainly worth a trip to say you've seen it. No hobby shop that I'm aware of. But there area couple of shops in the Cities that at least have a little CL stuff. Plus tons of trains and RC, etc.

At my first Freeze Fly this last year, I quickly learned not to leave starting batteries exposed to the cold. Jeff's idea of the Cox fuel primer sounds helpful, I didn't think of that last time. I wonder if a touch of light weight machine oil might not work, too, to keep things loose.

Jeff, you forget the club URL:
www.pistonpoppers.com

Come see us! Great club and a nice flying site.
Kelvin VP

Kelvin:

I'm still on Vicodone from that surgery yesterday and I could forget........ well, whatever that was.

Jeff (I think)

Mike:

There is a Hobby shop about a mile from the Mall of America, on 72nd and Chicago Ave. Like all the shops in our area, it's R/C and R/C cars. Good for a few fittings and generic supplies but that's about it. Feel free to contact me direct for specifics on that or others in the Twin Cities.

I wouldn't worry too much. If she's got free time and plastic at the Mall of America, you won't have enough left to buy anything anyway!

I now live in canada so I've done a little winter flying.Skies work fine but the proplem is they catch the wind and can sometimes make for some interesting flights I prefer to go with a friend and take an older model with no landing gear and hand launch the engine is hot at landing so the snow just melts away and does'nt bother it to much, starting the engine in cold wheather is the biggest problem I'm sure there are hot starter batteries out there but what I do is buy 8 D cells and wire them up in parallel provides plenty of amps to get em started in the coldest wheather and yes a hot plug and a bit higher nitro is a must. But also on the must list is keeping the piolot warm I use Mechanix inulated racing gloves they are designed for racing mechanics that might have to work on a hot car part but require removeing small bolts so they are thin but well insulated and work great for flying C/L in the winter also a thermos of hot rum or equivalent does'nt hurt either!!!!!!!!!!!! So there you are flying in winter can be fun if you do right.
Good luck
Dwayne

I have used lighter fluid as a primer on cold days. Works well.

greedy

>I have used lighter fluid as a primer on cold days. Works
>well.

I was going to say that! LOL!!
Plain old naptha, the ingredient in lighter fluid. (a touch goes a long way!)
Bill <><

Rob: Forget skis. They are very draggy, hard to mount, and generally a pain. If you make them very short, maybe. The better solution is simply to clear off a spot (I realise that in MN, these can mean digging through considerable snow) and do a normal launch with the wheels. Ease 'em in when landing; if it flips over, don't worry about it, because you probably should be flying a Beater in the snow, anyway. (And if it isn't already a Beater, it soon will be).

Funny paradox re Winter engine runs...you need the nitro to get the motor going, but once it is in the air, your Fox or OS or whatever will really snort up some additional hp in that cool air. More than you need, often. So the lighter fluid route isn't a bad idea.

Currell (in relatively warm MI)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-04 AT 09:59 PM (CST)
 
Be cautious of getting one severely flooded in cold weather and then catching it on fire. I've done this a few times with a Fox 35 and you don't always hear the little whoomph when it lights off and the flame is hard to see.. A couple of times I didn't notice it till the grass under the motor started burning.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-10-04 AT 10:20 PM (CST)
 
I haven't tried lighter fluid, but a few drops of diesel fuel does wonders for a glow engine. Hot plug and hot batteries are needed. I would be inclined to use a regular "glow ignitor" or two, keeping them warm in an inside pocket. You might make up some foam insulators, sorta like beer can covers. Wear a hat and some good insulated "Pack Boots". By the way, plural of ski is skiis, not skies, which are full of CL planes, with any luck at all. Steve

Thanks for all the replies.
Think I'll drop the Ski idea and go with wheels. I do have some rubber belting from my grass flying days that should work just as well on snow. I have a big area in my front yard that is perfect for flying, protected from wind, no obstructions, flat.
Now need to find a hobby shop in the St. Cloud area as I left all my fuel behind, and make up some new lines.
Time to go fly'in!
Thanks,
Rob Johnson
Foley, Mn.

Rob:

There was a small R/C oriented shop near St Cloud but it isn't there any more. I'm not aware of any others, but a phone book check might help.

Hobbytown in Brooklyn Park carries a basic stock of fuel, mostly R/C but some Sig for C/L. I just called them and he has some Sig 10%. I'm sure we could find an extra gallon among the club members, also, if needed. E-mail me on the side and I'll work it out for you or give you directions to Hobbytown. You're 45 min's to an hour away.

Coming from warmer climates you may not be comfortable in the cold yourself, but you'll be surprized what that dense air does for performance!

I'd be careful with loose talk about that nice front yard: you might find yourself with more company than you can handle!

Have fun and holler if I can help.....

You mentioned an OS 25 but didn't say if it was an FP or other model. I've flown my FP's in temperatures down to about 20F and all they needed was a freshly charged glow starter and a good wet prime. 6 or 8 flips later they would be pumping out power. The biggest problem I have with cold weather anything is keeping my hands warm. I haven't found any gloves that let my hands fit inside my handles. Bare hands for 7 minutes in 20F and after about minute 3 I can't wait for the tank to run out. I have the same problem with cool weather bicycling - finding something that will keep my hands warm but still leave me the dexterity for shifting gears, braking and rinnging my bell at whoever gets in my way.

Best, Hoovie

Finding gloves to fit in the handle is sure to be a problem. I know what I wear daily won't work at all. Think I'll take a look at the Mechanics gloves. They used them when I worked at Cat.They were trying out several brands to see which allowed the most dexterity. Don't know what the results were as to the best brand or how they would work in the cold.
I looked around St.Cloud the other day when I was in town. Didn't find any hobby shops, and looking in a phone book is kind of like asking for directions!! (I'll do it this time, just don't tell my wife).

Rob Johnson
Foley,Mn.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-04 AT 09:55 AM (CST)
 
When we were flying Green Head Torps, and Fox Black head specials in Kansas City in the winter, we would take the plane in the car to get it and us warm before we could start them. We were using Missile Mist as priming fluid but couldn't fly with it in the Torps, as they would cackle. Some times would try to get the engines warm by holding them in the exhaust of the car. By the way having the engine backfire and whack you on the fingers sure hurts, 0.049's are especially prone to that foolishness. Easy on the prime.

Go to a sporting goods/ski shop and ask for a pair of polypropylene glove liners. They are thin, hi-tech fabric gloves and will keep your hands surprisingly warm. They are a little slick in my experience so you want a good grip on the handle. Give those a try-think you'd be surprised how well they work.
Kelvin

The same material is perfect for socks too! Sure kept my feet warm hunting in Wisconsin.

Thanks for the advice.
Will look for the Polypropylene tomorrow.
I should be able to find a Ski Shop around here!

THE cold-weather starting battery of choice in Chicago was those 25 AH Cyclon "BC" lead-acid cells. You find them at Hamfests now and then. They fly a Combat meet the first weekend of the year called the Frozen Finger.

Yeah, the lighter fluid works great. I've heard some people use blow torches to warm up engines, but I never saw anyone do it.

Isky,

Bud has already shown up at the field with lighter fluid and
the Cyclon battery, and it's nowhere near zero!

One thing that puzzles me is the choice of higher nitro fuel for
cold weather. As I understand it, the alcohol has a lower flash point
than the nitromethane, and makes for an easier start.

Lighter fluid definitely has a lower flash point and gets 'em
gpoing fairly easily.

Another starting prime which shows up at Ned Brown is fuel in a
prime bottle with a higher percentage of propylene oxide. It also
seems to work.

Best regards,

Chicagoland Circle Cutters

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-04 AT 09:32 PM (CST)
 

CAUTION;

The various hot primers all work well, but remember we're are working with alcohol based fuels and fire outside the engine can be invisible until you feel the burn or the inside of the car or outside of the plane starts to disappear in smoke! You don't want to find out how long it takes to remove burning gloves that are melting on to your flying hand.

The best bet is warm it up in the car then start it outside. You may be surprized to find that your engines are fine on regular stunt fuels once they are running. Possibly a hotter plug to help warm up and hot fuel for starting, but huge amounts of nitro won't "heat it up" while running. One of nitro's virtues is producing more power without excessive heat, by changing the combustion pattern. (Yes, I know there's more to it than that....).

In any case, fires while starting are a particular hazard in winter.
As a lifelong Minnesotan I've seen or seen on the news, cars, garages, model planes, rear automobile cushions (he moved real, real fast to save the car while starting an .049 FF inside), snowmobiles, snow blowers and even motorcycles ( they race them on snow) burn while people tried to start them in the winter.

Have fun, but be safe.

We used to cook cylinders with a propane torch in cooold
weather - it worked but was also great for setting fire to things. A more modern variation is a heat gun run off a portable generator. A well charged battery is definitely necessary, a starter helps, and prinimg with ether** (or diesel fuel) will do the job in any temperature the flyer can stand.

Mild Bill

** Works on snow blowers and old worn automobiles, too.

HI Rob,
Up in Alberta we used to do regular winter flying. Some suggestions:

1. The best starting fluid is something like "Kleen-Flo" starting fluid. Or anything like it, that contains di-ethyl ether. Usually a shot in the venturi is good OR even a few ounces added directly to your fuel jug.
2. If you're able, try a fuel w/ all synthetic for the OS OR
75% syn & 25% castor for the Coxes. Synthetics are much easier to use in the winter.
3. Use only small fuel containers (pint), as the fuel absorbs water very quickly, you don't want to contaminate a whole gallon at the field.
4. Ni-starters are OUT. ONLY glow driver panels work best in winter..

Good Luck!

Paul Gibeault