Jap tissue

OK, guys,
It has been longer than I would like to remember since I have used it.
Any refreshers anyone can give me? Gonna use it on a fuselage and the open parts of a stab/elev.
Thanks!
Bill <><

Keep the squirt bottle handy, and don't pull too hard.

i never used water when covering wood or using it for decoration...used really thin dope about 70 percent thinner....use thinner if you have to move it or remove a wrinkle...no wrinkles!...they wont come out....jim

Bill:

I like it on everything but the open areas or where glass or veil is used. What works for me is a nitrate clear base on the wood, sanded just enough to get rid of the fuzzys. Jap is so thin you can ignore the overlaps so don't hesitate to use multiple pieces. Also, white jap is almost invisible on balsa so colored, such as yellow, will allow you to see where you are and aren't.

The trick my FF friends use is simple: apply it dry and with straight thinner. That draws the base dope up from below and gives ironclad binding.Any dope on top reduces penetration and weakens the grip.

Keep a double edged razor blade (with one edged taped for safety), and fresh # 11s hand and dice (gently so you don't cut the wood) to get around corners etc. Any bubbles or lifts, slit them and brush a little thinner on, rubbing with your finger.

A couple of 50/50 coats of clear nitrate before primer or sealer and you're in business. Remember, once you switch to butyrate, you can't go back to nitrate. (Butyrate thinner is fine, though, with nitrate).

Good luck,

As an old free flight builder, I used a lot of Jap tissue. The key to this stuff is to get it on with NO wrinkles crossing the edges where it is stuck down. For technique, check Frank Zaic's "Model Glider Design" book. When you wet it it will shrink up nice and taut. I still have a bunch of it left over from the 50's. Now, today there is Esaki Jap tissue which can be applied wet. This is a new type of stuff which I have not tried but have been told you can pull it around some prettty tight corners wet. Dope framework first,and then attach tissue with thinner or acetone. try it on some test frames if you are new to this tissue. It is easy after you do it a few times.

Bill,

Jeff mentioned the thinner only application which is what I used, but I have a few discoveries I'll share here. I used to slice 'n' dice edges too but something better is to simply apply a little water to the trimmed edge and then more thinner or very thin dope and rub the edge down with your finger.

The other thing is small wrinkle you may get over leading or trailing edges of a radical compound tip of surface. Again, before you apply any dope just wet the area and apply thinner and rub it down. This will evacuate any air and adhere the tissue. If any line of raised tissue remains, dope a couple coats and sand lightly and it will disappear.

Here are some examples, no slits of any kind on these parts.

LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-04 AT 09:18 PM (CST)
 
Randy:

OOOOH I like that. Never too old to learn new tricks, especially since some of the old ones don't work as well as they used to!

I thought I was pretty good with Jap but I'm not even close to your league. I'm printing this one out and saving it for my next ship.

Jeff

Edit: Randy, what's the stunter underneath the FF stab? Looks interesting.

Bill, got some heavy silkspan and trying to find
the grain,tear it both ways, they both tear the same
put it up to the light and can not tell the grain. Going
to put this on the twister.. Any advice or secrets?

LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-04 AT 09:51 PM (CST)
 
Hi Boris,

I have some of the "new" silkspan, and I am with you, I couldn't really find the grain. We discussed this in a thread this week by Dr. Spark. Silkspan just isn't made like it used to be.

Since it is heavy grade stuff you have, just put it on in the most "convienient" direction. The way that you can get the most whole size pieces out of. It should be just fine regardless of the "non existent" grain direction.

Apply it wet, stretching it pretty good in all directions, and getting all the wrinkles out. Do the opposite panel of the same wing as soon as you can. Have plenty of new razor blades ready to trim the excess off. You might want to spritz the first covered side when you're done with that wing to allow both sides to dry evenly and reduce the chance of wraps.

I use nitrate for everything up to the blocking coats and color.
I feel it builds up quicker, dries quicker, and sticks the tissue better.

The heavier the silkspan, the stronger it is (of course), but the harder it is to get it around tight corners.

Good Luck, Twisters are pretty good fliers!

Bill <><

Randy,
I sat here in silence for a few moments after seeing your work. First class my man. What a beautiful job.

Looks like an F-86 wingtip to me.

Can't slip anything past you Mitch.

Thanks Crist.

Mighty nice work.

Thanks guys,

It is Sig jap tissue, so I am expecting to apply it dry. I didn't remember that it was much different than silkspan. But like I have said, I haven't applied anything "dry" in the past 40 years. I use nitrate for all my substrate.

After seeing Randy's work, I'm glad mine will be painted over!
Awesome.

Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 02:39 AM (CST)
 
I apply Jap Tissue wet! That's right, WET! Here is how do it and it comes out wrinkle free and can be applied over compound curves just like silk or silkspan.

Store single sheets between newspaper sheets laid out flat, in a drawer. That precludes having to iron out wrinkles before each application. If it is badly wrinkled iron it on ironing board with low heat, using a domestic iron. That doesn't zap the shrinking aspect when it is applied over open spans.

Place a clean terry-clothe towel on a flat surface and lay the tissue paper flat on the towel. Spray the tissue paper with water filled spay bottle. Get it thoroughly wet. Take a second clean terry-clothe towel and lay it gently on top of the tissue paper. Press it lightly by hand. This absorbs the excess moisture (it is impossible to handle when saturated wet). Gently lift the cover towel with two corners simultaneously. You will now have a damp sheet of Jap Tissue that can be laid on balsa that will follow compound curves without easily tearing or wrinkling , as you apply thinned nitrate dope THROUGH the tissue. Apply the damp sheet over open areas just as you would silkspan.

Once dry, feather sand the excess overhang with 400 sand paper. A sharp razor blade or #11 xacto blade will not be needed for the most part. As stated earlier, overlapped pieces of Jap tissue will disappear quite readily as coats of dope are applied.

15 coats of thinned 50/50 thinner and clear dope will make one layer of Jap tissue very strong and it will have a high gloss.

In the old days (50s and 60s) I double covered my Stunt Ships with Jap Tissue thinking it cut down on weight. I am not sure it was lighter than double ought silkspan, but it did take less dope to produce a high gloss.

Rubbing out a finish on single sheets of doped Jap tissue could be risky and open panels would sometimes pop. The double covering gave it more strength and reduced the risk of popping an open panel when rubbing out the finish.

Jap tissue has the one side shinier than the other. The shinny side should be outside, shinny side up, if you will. Otherwise it will take more clear dope to get a high gloss.

I used sharp scissors to cut the pieces to shape. However, if you leave the ironed sheets between sheets of newspaper, you can lay a template on outer layer of newspaper and trace the template with #11 xacto for letters, numbers, fancy patterns. The newspaper keeps the tissue from tearing while you are cut/tracing.

Hawk,

I have no idea what Jap you were using but any I've ever has would turn into a wet blob of slop. I do wet my tissue locally around curves while covering but never where I have to attach and pull it.

Randy said:

>I have no idea what Jap you were using but any I've ever has
>would turn into a wet blob of slop. I do wet my tissue
>locally around curves while covering but never where I have
>to attach and pull it.
>
>Randy Ryan <><

You are right it will turn into a glob when WET.

But laying it down on a towel while dry, then spraying it wet, then laying a second towel over it to absord the excess water will leave it just slightly damp. Then it is pliable and manageable without tearing or globbing. Of course it still will have to be handle with kindness.

Just try it.

Well Hawk, I don't doubt you, I have and do work with damp tissue, but I guess after all these years I've developed what works for me and have no need to try a new method. Using my spray and swab wetting technique I've covered round fuselages in 2 pieces, so I guess it works. On the other hand friends have tried it and called me nasty names.

This is what fascinates me about this hobby, techniques are developed and used by people that other people always considered impossible. There's more then one way to skin a cat comes to mind, I really enjoy seeing how other people do it.

Guys, thanks for the compliments. I really enjoy doing a job as close to perfection as I can. My wife always chides me saying I'm a perfectionist. Well, that's OK, I tell here that If I build a house I have to do what the inspector says, and at work I have to do what mu boss says, heck, last spring I even had to plant the flowers the way she said to do it. BUT, when I'm in my shop I can do it any way I want with no one to answer to.

I wonder how these comversations will be missed when the whole world goes ARF!

Hi Bill. What they all said, but here is a trick I learned while in the San Diego Orbiteers club. A mostly free flight club and lots of indoor stuff. Bob Peck of Peck Polymers was a club member. After putting the Japanese tissue over the frame work, shrink it with alcohol, not water. This wets it enough to shrink it, but does not get into the wood underneath and eliminates warps. considering the fragile stick frame work of Peanut Scale and other indoor planes, this made sense and it works. The tissue is almost like light silkspan, but it has a definite top or smooth side to it, not unlkie polyspan. I like to use it on the tail feathers of my stunters. Peck Polymers sell it and I believe it is better than Sigs. I still have some from the 40's and 50's!!

Randy I can only echo the complements on your work. Thank you very much for sharing the photos and comments. This beats a thong discussion every time.

On the subject of tissue. Is there a list of all the different tissues to use and pros/cons and methods of use?

Thanks,
Lane

Lane,

Thanks.

In response to your question I don't know of a list like that you mention. But I can offer this. It used to be you had 3 basic choices; silk, silkspan and tissue (though there was rice and bamboo paper too).

Silk was for B and up gas models and it does compounds easily and is very strong. On the negative side, it snagged and was a pain to seal until you developed a method that would work for you.

Silkspan was for smaller models and very easy to work with. Good wet strength and pretty good around compounds. The old span had clear grain direction and was very consistant.

Tissue was for small models and rubber models. Most covered with it dry and it doesn't do compounds well that way. But, its light and tight grained making it easy to finish.

Many combinations of these materials have been used over the years. Colored silkspan over white silk was one of my favorites. Tissue of either silk or silkspan made for a stronger covering as well as one that was easier to do a stunter finish because the tissue is so smooth and tight grained.

This could go on and on. I've found there are no ends to the different techniques people have developed for using different materials, even different from whats here.

Friends: Real "Jap Tissue" is much lighter and more delicate than tissue sold by SIG. The genuine article can be ordered from:

FAI Model Supply
PO Box 366
Sayre, PA 18840-0366
[email protected]

Some cautions I have learned with "Jap Tissue":

Apply it dry over previously clear-doped structure. Wet tissue will fall apart!

It doesn't go around curves very well. You must apply it in overlapping pieces.

Colored "Jap Tissue" if overlapped will show a darker color at the overlap joint. So make the overlaps as small as possible.

Shrinking the tissue is best done using Isopropanol alcohol in a spray bottle.

I write "Jap Tissue" in quotes, because the old name is not politically correct (nor has it been since 1945).

F.C.

Floyd,

Even this stuff will work the way I've discribed, its all in developing the "touch" I guess.

Randy,

I agree with everyone else - your work in the pictures look great.

Except for monokote, I can't cover with anything unless it's wet. "Wet" has a different meaning for different folks, though. I use a squirt bottle as little as possible until it's on. You are right about trying to keep it dry where you pull, or you better not pull very hard.

This "polyspan" stuff sounds pretty good. I never liked silkspan on open areas for a stunt ship. It doesn't pass the dropped screwdriver test. Jap tissue on the fuselage is not a bad idea, though.