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Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer (#46 N1204)

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Bill Little · Dec 12, 2004 04:40 PM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 06:53 PM (CST)
 
Where would y'all go to find color shots of the P-51B red racing plane flown by Mantz?
Thanks
Bill <><

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Google hasn't been too great a help.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Abraham Lincoln

Steve Helmick · Dec 12, 2004 05:45 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#1 source
I did a Google search and quickly found these urls:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/p51who/173.shtml
http://www.users.uswest.net/~aknot/blair.htm (history of same airplane, which also did two cross polar flights in the hands of Charles Blair, setting piston engined records that still stand).
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/NAP-51C.htm

Googley says there are 236 websites to look through. I am linking to some pictures. They are not on SSW. By all accounts, the airplane is at the National Air & Space Museum at Dulles Int. Airport, and is the one that flew over the pole and won the Bendix on at least one occasion. Steve

http://www.nwskyraiders.com/index.html

[photo not recovered: 173-p.jpg]

tomB · Dec 12, 2004 05:59 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#2 source

Tom B

tomB · Dec 12, 2004 06:01 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 06:12 PM (CST)
 
Google with "P-51 Excalibur III".

EDIT update: Apparently, 1204 was Mantz's Thompson Trophy racer, 1202 (Excalibur III) was Mantz's Bendix Trophy racer, and was also owned by Charlie Blair, who flew it over the North Pole.

Don't know what happened to 1204 yet.

EDIT another update:
1204 was otherwise known as "INA the Macon Belle", and was sold to Kermit Weeks in 1985:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/survivors/pages/42-103831.shtml

Tom B

Bill Little · Dec 12, 2004 06:51 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 06:52 PM (CST)
 
Thanks Tom, Steve!
The #46 (N1204) is the plane I am looking for.
I didn't know about the Excaliber III until I had done my google, but I am looking for shots of the #46 in the original scheme like the b/w shot Tom gave..... Now at least I know what I am looking for!!
Thanks again,
Bill <><

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Abraham Lincoln

tomB · Dec 12, 2004 09:02 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#5 source
I can't tell whether the paint job was changed in the Tallmantz Aviation Museum, or whether Kermit Weeks changed it when he bought it. Either way, it looks like you will have trouble finding it. It may be that one of many books on the Thompson Trophy racers will at least have a 3-view. I'll keep looking when I get chance. I was always fascinated by Cook Cleland's F2G's myself. Luckily, there's pretty good info on them on a web site now (in addition to Bob Odegaard's current Reno racer):

http://www.airrace.com/CorsairStatusList2.html

Good Luck!

Tom B

Pete Munroe · Dec 12, 2004 10:10 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#6 source
I have a Smithsonian book, "Excalibur 111 the Story of a P-51 Mustang". ISBN 0-87474-635-3 about 1978.

A quick glance through the book shows several side views of the plane in question, "Race 46", and other racers of the 46' to 50' era.

It is a simple paint job, but the devil is in the details if you are splitting hairs for a scale job.

There is a lot of info in the book on that aircraft and the Excalibur, I would have to reread for accuracy, but as to the COLOR of Excalibur, and PROBABLY Race 46, it is Randolph Wine Red B-9164, also known as Stinson Red Q-1913. Bet someones Brodak or Sig dope is the correct Stinson red, a marroon.

This was the Smithsonian's findings of samples off the rudder counter weight...in layers, every coating of paint ever applied to the plane.

A more esoteric description of the color is Munsell 7.5 3/9, (I quess Munsell? is a spectrographic standard for color quality, I dunno).

If you are really hot on this, e-mail me and I will give you the ISBN numbers, or lend you the book.

Pete

ama353 · Dec 12, 2004 10:22 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#7 source
Bill Little writes –

>Thanks Tom, Steve!
>The #46 (N1204) is the plane I am looking for.
>I didn't know about the Excaliber III until I had done my
>google, but I am looking for shots of the #46 in the
>original scheme like the b/w shot Tom gave..... Now at
>least I know what I am looking for!!
>Thanks again,
>Bill

Bill, I have the book Excalibur III, The Story of a P-51 Mustang – the first volume in a series, Famous Aircraft of the National Air and Space Museum. There aren’t a lot of color photos, but surely at least a bit of what you’re looking for along with lots of history on 1202 and 1204.

Just give me the word, I’ll mail it to you and you can ogle to your heart’s delight.

Dennis

Bill Little · Dec 12, 2004 10:54 PM

RE: Paul Mantz (??) red P-51 Racer#8 source
Thanks Pete for the color info! I can get Randolph's dope.

Dennis, please check you Private Message.

Thanks again, guys!
Bill <><

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Abraham Lincoln

cwmcmillin · Dec 13, 2004 03:17 PM

#9 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-04 AT 08:28 PM (CST)
 
Hi Bill,
I used to eat my lunch sitting on the wing of NX1204 at Tallmantz when I pumped gas there in high school and college. She was old and corroded but I still liked it.
Here is a bit of info on the airplane;
NX 1204 was bought at the same time as NX 1202 and they were flown to Glendale and modified to wet wing racers for the Bendix Trophy race. Neither airplane was ever flown in the Thompson.

NX1202 #46 was flown by Mantz to victory in 1946 and 1947. NX1202 was painted red with white stripe and numbers as most people are familiar. At that time NX 1204 #60 was painted with a red wing but a natural metal fuse and tail. In 47 it was a red wing and a GULP yellow fuse and tail!

The 1948 race saw Mantz sponsored by Glen McCarthy and Paul switched airplanes to NX1204. They were both painted grey with green markings with black pin stripes. The airplanes were named after McCarthy's hotels and the team was made up of Mantz' NX1204 was # 46 now, "The Latin American", NX1202 was #60 now , "The Houstonian" and Eddie Lunkun in his modified P-51D #33 was the "Texan".

In 1949 NX1204 was flown by Stan Reaver and NX1202 flown by Fish Salmon. The red and white scheme was back in 1949 and was the most like the finish on NX1204 as seen at the Tallmantz Museum.

After the races NX 1204 was relegated to old airplane and was flown from Cleveland to Glendale and eventually to Orange County. It was a billboard for the museum and sat outside for years. It got very corroded and was in poor shape.

Charles Blair bought NX 1202 in 1950 and flew his Polar and Atlantic flights, retiring it and presenting it to the Smithsonian.

In 1980 or so, my one time bosses "Boots" Tallman, Frank's widow and Frank Pine, Frank's partner, sold off the Tallmantz Movieland of the Air Collection to Kermit Weeks and NX1204 went to Art Teeters for restoration to military stock. By contrast the Smithsonian curator Robert Mikesh tried to restore NX 1202 to as near perfect specs as flown over the North Pole and Atlantic. Therefor NX 1202 will be most like the Bendix racer.

Both airplanes were Dallas C models and came with dorsal fins. Kermit made his look like a B and has the current military paint job.

The books to have for photos of these airplanes are the late Birch Matthews' "Mustang, The Racing Thoroughbred" and "Wet Wings and Drop Tanks". They have a lot of good pics and color galleries. Plus Birch was a real enthusiast and raceplane lover. They are good books for research and the stories.

Study the pictures of the airplanes in the years of racing and notice all the variations. Pick one you like and make a cool looking model.

Chris...

Picture is of Dad at the Tallmantz auction to settle Paul Mantz' estate, 1968.

Currell · Dec 13, 2004 09:49 PM

#10 source
I got to see the plane at the Dulles museum last summer. And I recommend the entire museum. Check out the Hurricane while you are there, too. And many, many others, too numerous to mention.

You pay $12 to park, and that is it. Pile a bunch into the Excursion. The gift shop offers temptations, though, so be careful.

Currell

DPMCENTHUSIAST · Dec 14, 2004 12:42 AM

#11 source
Hey, I know that guy! Wasn't Charles Blair also married to Maureen O'hara? A lot of Hollywood types into aviation back then.
Dan

Type at you later

cwmcmillin · Dec 14, 2004 01:24 AM

#12 source
Hey Danny,
If you look carefully, you can see the Morane Solnar parasol in which George Peppard met his fate in "The Blue Max" to the right.
Chris...

Bill Little · Dec 14, 2004 04:10 PM

#13 source
Hi Chris,
Thanks for that pic.

Thanks to all who responded!
Bill <><

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Abraham Lincoln