Brodak .40 problems

Any suggestions on what to check for and how to set this engine up.

How much time on the engine?

How are you trying to run it? Wet 4, wet 2, 4-2-4 break, etc.

Brand of fuel?

Altitude of field?

Tank construction?

Brand of plugs?

Favorite breakfast cereal?

Details man... we need details!

However, after I got more time on the motor it really came to life. Now it flip starts easily, and runs really well. The engine makes good power and is really smooth, very low vibes. I use the stock needle valve and it works really well for me. I run Byron 10% Nitro 20% Half and Half. I add about 4oz of additional castor, and 1oz of Randy’s Aero Oil. Regular vent tank, no uniflow, and a 10X5 prop.

Could it be you just don’t have enough time on it?

Some of the very early engines had too low compression which made them run erratic.

Some people also have had troubles with too much oil in the fuel and too cold a plug. It doesn't need a the extra oil a Fox does.

A mature person profits from criticism. __Vincent Lombardi

Problem is a difficulty in setting the needle – last run it took off fine in a 2 stroke and then went to a sloppy 4 stroke. Overall lack of performance and power.

Time on the engine – I did the break in as describe and have another hour or so in the air. Starts easy.

Plug – Thunderbolt – Same plug I use on all the OS engines with great success.

Fuel – Riche’s brew with 25% synthetic. Mostly 5% but did try 10%

Altitude of field – Probably about 5 feet, Maybe 10 at the most (I’m guessing this is not an issue).

Tank – Well I have tried three. First was the metal tank that came with the Nobler, changed it to plastic clunk and now it is on a Magician with a plastic. My buddy that launched it said there was a lot of vibration – much more that with the OS LA 40.

Cereal – after fooling around with this engine I have switched to Jack Daniels.

Just an observation - going from upright to a profile is not generally a formula for improved engine runs.

If it really doesn't work. call up Brodak, and ask them about a replacement.

See Ya

Did you check to make sure everything is tight on the motor. Also, you might try a different needle valve, some have had problems with the stock Brodak unit.

* Uniflow tanks
* Powermaster 10/22 fuel
* APC 10.5 x 4.5 propeller
* OS A-3 or K&B 1-L Glow plugs.

Double check the exhaust port to ensure the sleeve isn't rotated - and the spray bar....you shouldn't be able to see the holes.

That it seems to go rich makes me think of glow plugs, and oil content. Sounds too like you're not running uniflow...and that seems to be the better setup out here.

Try one thing at a time!

Some questions sound like we think you're an idiot... not the case. We aren't there to see it for ourselves. When the engine goes into the "sloppy 4 stroke" is it really a sloppy 4 stroke (with lots of oil flying from the exhaust) or is it slowing down? Could be going lean.. overheating. Rainman had a Brodak .40 that started doing the same thing. He added one head shim and reduced compression. Fixed the problem.
>
>Time on the engine – I did the break in as describe and have
>another hour or so in the air. Starts easy.

Should be OK but they are pretty tight from the factory and do take some time to settle in.

>
>Plug – Thunderbolt – Same plug I use on all the OS engines
>with great success.

We are using them in our Brodaks. Should be OK

>
>Fuel – Riche’s brew with 25% synthetic. Mostly 5% but did
>try 10%

Not sure about this one. We are using 10% Nitro and 22% oil (50% syn./50%castor). Brodak recommends some castor. If it's overheating as described above, then lack of castor will aggrevate the problem. Castor carries a lot of heat off as it is expelled.

>
>Altitude of field – Probably about 5 feet, Maybe 10 at the
>most (I’m guessing this is not an issue).

Do you wear boots at high tide?

>
>Tank – Well I have tried three. First was the metal tank
>that came with the Nobler, changed it to plastic clunk and
>now it is on a Magician with a plastic. My buddy that
>launched it said there was a lot of vibration – much more
>that with the OS LA 40.

Could be foam from vibration. This will also cause it to go lean and sag. (No power again). Easy check..do you see bubbles traveling thru the fuel line when it's running?

Brett also mentioned going from an inverted position in a full fuselage plane to sideways in a profile. How did it run when on the Nobler?

>
>Cereal – after fooling around with this engine I have
>switched to Jack Daniels.

DANGER - DANGER Will Robinson.... do not operate heavy equipment after breakfast!

Larry <><
AMA 8424

Two thoughts:

First, Fig Newtons dipped in Scotch is much better than Jack Daniels & Cheerios for breakfast. Dirty Dan might be able to help on that.

Break in is super critical on B-40's. If you followed the instructions exactly you should be fine but remember, it is the heating and cooling cycles, not total time, that counts. I have a late one (large outlet on the stock muffler). Out of the box mine ran much like you describe for half a dozen 2 minute runs, very unsteady with a tendancy to go rich. After that it smoothed out and with a total of 25- 2 minute fast bench runs on a 9/6 running right in the 2-4 break it steadied out perfectly. From there to an ARF Nobler with the included tank (borrowed airplane) and it runs flawlessly, even without uniflow or muffler pressure.

If you bench ran it rich, it's probably not broken in. Go back and run it on a 9/6, fast runs, 2 minutes lots of cool down time between.

Another variable is the muffler, since you're not running a stock one. Lots of people are using Len's so it's not a likely problem but if its possible, try a flight with the stock muffler to eliminate it as a problem.

Different engines create different harmonics so what worked on the LA might be foaming with the Brodak. Have you tried it without the muffler pressure?

Hope these thoughts help.

I have now installed engine in Cardinal using a 10-6 prop and the same fuel as mentioned above. I am running a 4-2-4 cycle and it runs extremely well. Starts on the first or second flip and kicks into a 2 cycle exactly when you need it during a flight. Using 64 foot lines, I run around 5.4 second laps. I use a tongue muffler and a Brodak uniflow tank with tank mounted about 1/4 inch above center line of engine. No muffler pressure. Cannot say enough good things about the engine. My friend also broke his in at the same time I did and his is also running just like mine.

Ron Hook
Goodyear, AZ

1) Satisfy yourself that you have made a reasonable effort at getting the thing to run properly.

2) Acknowledge the fact that not all Brodak 40s appear to be created equal.

3) Brodak has a Q.C./return policy which amounts to: "If you catch us, we'll send a free replacement."

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Come on now Dan,

I know the Brodak motor had some problems in the begining with some quality issues as do a lot of products. For example, Fox never balanced the cranks back in the early days, and in the year 2005 they still don't balance a crank very well.

Every Brodak 40 I have seen has been a very good performer once broken in. Actually for the money it's a very good value also. I have two of them and I'm really happy with the performance and quality.

Catch us if you can QC, kinda of funny but I'm not really sure that's the case. I know Brodak is not the most popular name right now, but it's a solid product with a good track record.

Dick Fowler

No I don’t feel like an idiot (well not today at least) so I appreciate the questions. Yes – it went sloppy rich with lots of oil and smoke coming out.

I have not had any problem with the 25% oil in any other engine I run. Lots of OS of various sizes, Fox combats and Nelsons. I have a hard time thinking it is the oil but I can try more nitro very easy. Perhaps 40%?? (kidding)

Altitude of the field – well it has not flooded in recent years but …. My house is at 16 feet so if the polar caps melt it could cause problems!

Cary:

Your last comment reminds me of something. I believe some of the guys have spoken of air leaks along the needle valve with some B-40s.
Trying another one might be worth the time.

One other thing that's a long shot. I've had plugs either glaze the filament or leak compression with use. They appear good but don't run steadily. Personally, I like the K&B 1l's, but that's no big deal.

Brodak has a liberal return policy, but it's a shame to waste all the effort you've put in to it.

For what it's worth, with a 9/6 prop, 10% fuel, NO Muffler (during break in, very important), and running so it was kicking back and forth from 2 to 4 cycle, mine was just screaming during break in. I did it while timing at a FF contest and those guys were complaining about the noise! The results were well worth it.

Have to (sort of) agree with Dirty Dan....I know of a couple B-40's that did not seem up to par. One got a new piston/sleeve and is now as strong as the rest of them. And Brodak is still no nonsense on making good on warranty.

"Come on now Dan,

I know the Brodak motor had some problems in the begining with some quality issues as do a lot of products. For example, Fox never balanced the cranks back in the early days, and in the year 2005 they still don't balance a crank very well.

Every Brodak 40 I have seen has been a very good performer once broken in. Actually for the money it's a very good value also. I have two of them and I'm really happy with the performance and quality.

Catch us if you can QC, kinda of funny but I'm not really sure that's the case. I know Brodak is not the most popular name right now, but it's a solid product with a good track record."

John,

I can quite easily separate Brodak the PAMPA President from Brodak, supplier of toy airplane goods.

And while it was indeed meant to be funny, in situations such as this I am always reminded--indeed, have mentioned it here before--of my efforts to buy B-Y&O 10-6 props from Brodak. As in props that even remotely resembled what we here in the NW call Real-Deal B-Y&O props, although the "B" back then was "Bull." Uh, Clarence Bull.

Brodak & Co. almost literally shoved the props out the door. This after having untrained people making and/or finishing them. Len tells of some that went out with the Phillips entry (raised LE) carved in slightly incorrectly. Like on the TE of the props!

I never saw any like that, but in two (maybe three) tries to get props I could use, or at least modify, I can report no successes at all.

Others have never noticed any problems with things like kits and paint, and that's good.

But it is a fact of business life that you can invest your Q.C. dollars at the front end of the process or give your customers almost complete freedom to return items they don't find suitable. Rare, very rare is the company which does both.

For what it's worth, I have seen several early Brodak 40s that wouldn't haul the mail, although I don't know what eventually took place. The last two I have seen in operation--one each from Bob Smiley and Will Reeb--seemed satisfactory in every way.

Hey Dan....who's Bill?

John

John, my friend, whatever do you mean?

Dan

edits are too cool...

That was a quick fix!!!! You are the man....Dan.

I'm still waiting for the 20FP to show up in the mail so I can try it out??

I thought the pistons are matched to the cylinder so they are sold as a set. Maybe I now understand what Dan is saying about QC.

I'm almost positive that's what OS does, piston/cylinder matched?.....right?

I've been having the same problems with my B.40. I'll try the advice given here before I stomp it.

Frank Carlisle
proud member of R.C.C.D.

Doc:

Thats interesting. At Tucson I was also running mine on 10%X 22% (1/2 cast, 1/2 synth), but on a 10/5 BY&O, and unintentionally on the small outlet muffler. On 4 oz my running times (not flight times) were 6:40 to 7:10. 6:40 was rich enough to be well into the maneuver before the break, 7:10 was leaner and gave an "instant" break. Again, this was on 4 0z. That engine with the large outlet muffler would barely make the pattern on 4 oz when at the leaner setting, even with 4.2 to 4.4 sec laps ( that was in an ARF Nobler, not the Tempest). Prop and muffler seem to be the two differences. Sure makes for food for thought.

Take care,

Jeff

PS. I didn't realize you were running a Brodak but it looked and sounded good to me!

Doc:
I have 4, 3 with a couple of hours each on them and on various Orientals, Noblers, Brodak warbirds and other similar sized airplanes, 10/22 fuel and 10/5 or 10.5 X 4.5 APC, 62 to 65' of lines and lap time around 5.0 to 5.2 etc. 3.75 oz of fuel seems to be pretty much universal. 4 oz is OK, any more will over run.
They still flood pretty easily, even when fully broken in and almost feel dry when flooded, so they are easy to flood even more.
With a warm restart, usually filling the tank and maybe one half choke will produce one flippers.
All are very consistent.