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Tuned Pipe Summary

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Crist Rigotti · Feb 01, 2002 02:05 PM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-02 AT 02:16 PM (CST)

Guys,
I put together a tuned pipe summary from some of the post on this forum. I also included the chart from Randy. Of course this is just a summary and if it needs editing let me know so we can all benefit from this condensed document.

Crist

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DMoon · Feb 01, 2002 04:57 PM

#1 source
I have something to add.

The compression and the break.

I have the compression on my pa 61 at 6 thousandths head shim. I do not know what that makes the actual clearance but it is alot less than the 34 thousanths shim I had in it last year at the nats.

With the compression way up like it is now on 10% fuel it will run in a steady 4cy and never break except at the top of the verticle 8 only. The pipe length is very critical with this setup. The power is unmatched. I have always heard when it cools off go down in nitro to slow the break. There is a flier here running 15 - 20% nitro when it 50 degrees out. That is quite cool for 20% nitro at 15 thousandths head shim. His motor never breaks. It is a horse. The venturis in our motors are size 4 and he is going to a 2 if he can. When the setup is like this the pipe length is very long. Over 18" for 10500 rpms. The prop is very flat 3.7. The flatter the better in my book. Less windup more breaking action in the manuvers.

Last year with alot of headshim and breaks here and there the pitch had to go up. In the cool weather the nitro had to down so it would not run off when it did break.

The flier around here uses nitro to control the compression. More nitor more compression. I have only 10% fuel so I just keep taking out shims. And scooting the pipe out to control boost. 1/8 inch changes are huge in this setup. There is no windup.

More compression = less break but a much harder 4cy. A very fast 4 but no break.(very fun) The Pipe is very long compared to the chart for 10500 rpms at 18 1/8"

Less compression = more break or earlier break and when it does break it goes so nitro content is and pipe length are critical. With more headshim my pipe length was 17 1/8"

DMoon

Scott · Feb 02, 2002 11:47 AM

#2 source
GOOD STUFF GUY'S. there will be more on this .

Scott(KING KONG)Riese

godzilla · Feb 02, 2002 09:20 PM

#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-02 AT 09:29 PM (CST)

>The flier around here uses nitro
>to control the compression.
>More nitor more compression.
>I have only 10% fuel
>so I just keep taking
>out shims. And scooting
>the pipe out to control
>boost. 1/8 inch changes
>are huge in this setup.
> There is no windup.

Pull the pipe to slow the OVERALL speed. Shorter pipe equals faster lap times. Pipe length appears to ba almost exclusively for overall speed. Controlling boost is venturi, nitro and pitch.

Most people get more boost by pushing in the pipe. Nitro gives the boosting effect in this case (I guess) and the long pipe governs the overall speed. The LOw pitch and load governs the wind up , along with the long pipe.

>
>More compression = less break but
>a much harder 4cy.
>A very fast 4 but
>no break.(very fun) The
>Pipe is very long compared
>to the chart for 10500
>rpms at 18 1/8"

Not necessarily for 50 degree weather. The speed of sound is faster in cold air, requiring a longer than chart pipe length. My guess is that the pipe will go in some this summer. We will see.
>
>Less compression = more break or
>earlier break

I agree with this statement and disagree with the other
fella's statement that lower compression extends the point where the engine breaks. The engine is actually breaking sooner and softer with lower compression, making the 2 cycle portion of the power of the engine somewhat useable. I do believe that lowering the compression on the PA is an option but will require more pitch. Thsi is how I ran mine, it was hit or miss. The new way is better.

Also, more compression will extend the point of the break (to a higher RPM) ON A PA-65. This is not necessarily so on all engines (try this on your OS MAX 32, it will go combat).

Again, this is a testament to the design of the PA. The case is so small it cannot go ballistic like most schnuerle engines.

Brad (certainly not a pipe expert, just a big fan) Walker

P.S. 10,500 is where Randy recommended to run the PA. HE did say the PA 65 might want to run slower, like the high nine's. So, this may not be new for the other PA's, maybe just the 65.

Tim Gee · Feb 03, 2002 05:04 AM

#4 source
I ran pipes quite successfully for many years in F2B.
Enya 45, OSVF40/46, PA51, Smith pipes, Eather pipes, Eather props, Bolly props, in various models.

I won't coment much on points 1-12 other than to say much of it is not consistent with my experience. Why for example (no.2) would you run more pitch in denser air instead of less unless you want the model to fly faster?

My main reason for comenting though is to save the unwary from damaging an expensive motor by following the advice of no.13

If the motor is running hot (lean) and you lengthen the pipe, you will have to lean it off more to maintain lap times. This is a very effective recipe for cooking the P&C.

Tim Gee

Crist Rigotti · Feb 03, 2002 10:38 PM

#5 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-02 AT 10:41 PM (CST)

Fellas,
I need to make some comments here. This summary was intended to try to condense a lot of information that has been posted here on this forum and elsewhere and to generalize it. By no means is it comprehensive or was it meant to deal with every nuance of running pipe. My intention was for those who might like to try a piped setup or those who are new to it (like myself). If I where to post a summary on running unpiped engines, it would be a lot longer that 1 page because there are many successful ways of running unpiped engines. Let me list the reference for the statements above.
#1 Brett Buck "PA 65 and pipe questions" post #8
#2 same as above
#3 same as above
#4 same as above
#5 same as above
#6 Ted Fancher "PA 65 and pipe questions" post #11
#7 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" Flightlines R/C Watch C/L Forum post dated 8-10-01
#8 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" etc.
#9 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" etc.
#10 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" etc.
#11 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" etc.
#12 Ted Fancher "Piped OS 32" etc.
#13 Randy Smith "Pipe Tuning Chart" Randy Smith.
#13 Curt Contrata "PA 65 and pipe questions" post #3

So here are a few directed comments:

Doug:
The setup you are refering to seems very critical for a newbie. Perhaps those who have more experience would like to try it. With all due respect, I don't think nitro controls compression. That is left up to the phyiscal make up of the engine. I believe it controls ignition timing. We know that the compression and nitro together can determine ignition timing of an engine.

Godzilla:
In Bretts post he does mention that pipe length tweaks are good for slightly moving the break point up or down and tweaking lap times.
You agree with the statement that less compression = a sooner and softer break. Ted says what I listed in #11. I have no experience at running pipes. Perhaps Ted, Bret or others would like to comment on this issue.

Tim:
It seems that you take exception to point #2. With all due respect, when the term "high density alittude" is used, it is an aeronautical term used in the context that "high" means high altitude, or less dense air and "low", of course means just the opposite.
Concerning point #13 about a hot running engine, It seems from the posts from this forum, that a hot engine does not necessarily mean a lean engine. If a pipe is too short then the boost is blown back into and through the engine, causing it too run hot. With that in mind, that is why I listed #13. I would also think that a lean running engine would cause a hot engine too.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to reread the above listed posts to see where I am coming from.

I really appreciate the responses so far and look forward to more. I think this type of summary is long overdue. As a matter of fact Rocket City Jim in his post #15 from the "PA 65 and pipe question" from this forum thought it would be a good idea.

Let's keep it going till we have something that will be useful as a general guide.

Crist

Ted Fancher · Feb 04, 2002 02:00 AM

#6 source
A good discussion, Crist. Thanks for getting it going.

Tim, Crist's point about density altitude is right on. It's easy to see how it could be mis-interpreted but he's right. In aviation lingo high density altitude means less dense air (as in the mountains) and vice versa. Pretty simple language confusion.

Item 13 I suspect refers to the possibility of pushing the pipe in so far as that you start re-ingesting exhaust gases. If the pipe is too short the rebound wave will force the gas flow backwards through the engine pushing fresh charge out the venturi and re-charging the cylinder with hot exhaust. I think it is this extreme condition that Randy refered to. Your suggestion regarding the need to further lean the engine with longer pipe lengths (for the same RPM) is certainly valid as well but occurs, of course, at the opposite extreme.

A couple of comments regarding the effects of various tuning devices, specifically nitro, head clearance, pipe length and plug heat.

All of the above effect the "ignition timing" of the engine (as opposed to intake/exhaust timing). Glow engines can be thought of as compression ignition engines with a booster system. We've all probably experienced the occassional engine start WITHOUT a battery attached. This is proof positive that a large part of the flash point process of these engines occurs via the "Heat of Compression", which simply means that a volatile mixture can be squeezed to the point that it reaches its flash point simply through the heat generated by the compression of that mixture. Model diesel engines are, of course, the ultimate example of this phenomenom.

With our glow plug we have merely integrated an ignition expeditor into the equation which allows us to ignite the mixture at a lower level of compression. Pretty straight forward.

In our case the point at which ignition occurs is a function of the combination of heat of compression and the heat of the glow plug. Much like the ignition timing on a car, we can control the power delivery of the engine by altering at what point in the compression stroke ignition is initiated. If we lower the compresssion (raise the head) or use a colder plug or run a lower nitro content fuel ignition will occur later in the cycle and vice versa.

Once again, in extremis, if you go too far in the first instance the engine won't fire at all let alone run. You'll never get the temperature to the flash point. If, on the other hand, you increase compression excessively, run a very hot plug and/or throw in a bunch of nitro, ignition will occur prematurely and the engine will knock, overheat and pretty much beat itself to death.

Somewhere in between these extremes lies stunt heaven!

Now, when you throw a tuned pipe into the mixture you've done nothing more than add a more or less adjustable element into the compression equation (and, therefore, the ignition equation since compression=heat=ignition).

The principle of the pipe is based on the fact that the last bit of the exhaust pulse on a two stroke engine is expelling a part of the incoming fresh fuel/air mixture which would ordinarily be lost with the exhaust stream. The pipe is a pulsing wave producer which alternately pushes and pulls the exhaust wave. When the length and volume of pipe is correct for the RPM and air density the rebound wave will push those almost lost molecules of fuel/air mixture back into the combustion chamber just before the piston closes the exhaust port.

At the point this happens the intake port has already closed thus trapping not only the fuel/air mixture already in the cylinder but also that forced back in through the exhaust. The resulting charge is a greater mass of combustibles than would have existed without the rebound wave. Thus, the total amount of mixture compressed is greater and, therefore, the heat of compression is increased.

The net result of the pipe is, therefore, two-fold. First the larger charge produces a greater propulsive force (a big firecracker makes more "boom" than a little one") which thus increases torque, and, second, the ignition is advanced slightly since the heat of compression will make the mixture ignite earlier in the compression stroke.

The above is why a tuned pipe equipped engine can produce more useable power at a given RPM than does the same engine without a pipe...it's not unlike a turbo-charger on a four stroke engine.

Given some comfort with the above knowledge and a more or less infinite amount of time to "fiddle" with our toys, a truly refined run can be developed to provide just the right kind of power for a particular ship. You can juggle the variables of head clearance, plug heat range, nitro content and pipe length (as well as intake size to a certain degree) to achieve an engine run at the perfect RPM for a perfect prop with a perfect break...both amount of break and when it occurs...and precisely the right amount of power burst in high drag conditions to suit the weight and wing loading of your airplane.

Oh, you can get the plane and engine to fly competitively well pretty much time after time without a lot of juggling but, occassionally you'll stumble into the condition nirvana that I've mentioned and discover just how delightfully easy it is to fly as well as you're capable of with almost no effort. When it is right you'll be happy. When it is perfect you'll think the devil is playing with your soul 'cause it's that much better.

I think it might be safe to theorize that the ideal for setting up a piped stunt engine would be to find the pipe length that--for the desired RPM--re-ingests 100% of the unburned mixture expelled by the exhaust stroke, thus maximizing the amount of fuel/air mixture available for the subsequent compression and power strokes.

This is only, however, the first step. The second step would be to adjust the head clearance to precisely the point that the power "delivery" to the airplane is perfectly attuned to the needs of the airplane and the pilot. This might be with significant break under load (a heavy high drag ship or a pilot who likes to "hammer" the corners), a modest break which just give a "blip" of boost in the corners (my personal favorite), or a flat high torque run with no break to speak of or maybe just a touch at the top of the hourglass which make a very smooth and easy flying constant speed setup with lots of power but little change in speed.

These three steps in power delivery would likely be achieved by successively lower compression ratios with all else remaining the same.

Please note that if you change any of these variables the rest will change accordingly. Thus, you can achieve the high compression constant four stroke set-up Doug prefers by, perhaps, using a very free pipe (large volume with little back pressure) a very large venturi, low load (a low pitch, clean planform prop), and comparatively high nitro and rich mixture.

Like someone mentioned, however, I think a safer approach for the average or new pipe user would be a lower compression ratio set-up which places the engine in less jeopardy should there be a slip up in the operation.

Oi vey, as usual, way too long. sorry 'bout that.

Ted

Tim Gee · Feb 04, 2002 08:23 AM

#7 source
Hi there Ted,

I'll bow to your "aviation lingo" lessons any day. Thanks for the explanation.

Strange semantics though, where the qualifying terms 'high & low' do not refer to the subject of primary concern (density) but refer exclusively to altitude. With this logic, high altitude density means thick air! I wonder who makes the rules?
Then again, I may be suffering from high density attitude....or is it high attitude density?

Crist, on the 'hot' thing (no. 13). I've seen a lot of lean hot runs (pipe too long). I've also seen hot runs much as Ted describes resulting from pipes with too little volume effectively set too short. (perhaps we are describing the same thing here). Lengthening these creates more volume and cools things to some extent but they always seem to remain touchy. I havn't seen the latter recently due, I would think, to the use of larger volume pipes these days.

For what it's worth, my warning about hot indicating lean was to address what I would have thought to be the more common condition today and maybe save someone from grief and expense.

Ted I certainly enjoyed reading the rest of your posting. Slight blip in the corners is my favourite too, with the emphasis on slight.

Cheers Tim Gee.

DMoon · Feb 04, 2002 10:25 AM

#8 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-02 AT 10:25 AM (CST)

Crist,

I the setup I described might seem intimidating. Having to change gaskets and drill out venturis and all that junk. But when we have such nice equipment making those changes isnt that tough and can be really fun and really frustrating. I ran my latest 61 stock for 1 season. 26thousandths head shim and a 12 venturi. Nice setup easy break about halfway through a loop it would break go over the top in a two cycle and be back to a four cycle by the bottom.(3 bladed prop 10%nitro) The next season last season that is, I ran it with 32thousandths headshim(read that less power) with more break but a 4 blade prop with 4.5 to 5.5 pitch. It had alot of pitch but since the power was down there was no speed up. Very nice run! I flew one flight at the nats with a 5.94 lap time and had my best score of the day with that setup. Now I am down to 6 thousanths head shim and there is NO break. Three loops no break anywhere. The speed is constant. The venturi is size 4 the pipe at 18".(10%nitro) The HIGHER compression is giving LESS break. I remeber when I had it all mixed up at first and did not understand what I was doing when I first got a pipe motor in 96. I called Randy and he said the more compression the less break. He was right.

Ted proves my point about Nitro helping to up the compression. Our motors fire when it is HOT enough. They are not controlled by an electric ignition right? Nitro COOLS the mixture. Thus allowing the piston to travel higher before it fires, there is the adding compression effect. A simple test yet time consuming is to got to the field with fuels that have all different Nitro content. FAI no nitro, 5%, 10%, 15%.(I used all sig 20% oil half castor and half synthetic) Run a few flights on each of the fuels starting with the FAI and working your way up the %s. It will four cycle longer each time you move up in fuel. The same effect you get from upping the compression with less and less headshim. I know it works because I have tried it. However the runs you get when the nitro is high and the venturi is still stock probably wont be to your liking. The motor will stay in a 4s longer but it will zoom on you in some manuvers. It will want more air when you jack the compression. You will be able to run the motor to a higher RPM before the break occurs. This helps because with a higher RPM you can flatten out the prop. This means less windup action. At least for me I prefer the slow steady speed of a flat prop. I was acheiving this same effect last year by putting the compression way low and letting it break with no power and lettting the prop drive the plane. That plane weighs 53 oz so it doesnt take much to fly it. I am lucky it didnt get windy or I would have been down on power when I needed it most. My new plane is 9 oz heavier on the same wing and longer too. The setup with high compression(more power) is what it needs to perform.

They do it in NITRO funny cars. The nitro keeps the engine cool and the blower compresses the air and it does not fire until the magneto hits it. The nitro cools the mixture enough to let them get the compression WAY up there. That is how they get 5000 horse power or more out 500 cubic inches. Without the nitro it would burn up. The blower would cause such a hot mixture in the cylinder head it fire upon entry cylinder. BOOM!!! (That would be bad)

Hope this helps.

DMoon

RocketCityJim · Feb 04, 2002 11:56 AM

#9 source
Hi, Crist

Since I did get mentioned on this thread that I thought this discussion would be a good idea, keep up the good work guys!
Also what effects to these pipe changes, nitro changes, head clearance changes and venturi changes have on fuel economy. That's a subject that I'm quite intrested in.

Jim Pollock

DMoon · Feb 04, 2002 12:54 PM

#10 source
When the venturi gets bigger so does the amount of fuel you will use. The more nitro the more fuel you will use also.

DMoon

DMoon · Feb 04, 2002 01:00 PM

#11 source
#12 in the original list is exactly what I am going for except for one thing. The pipe will be longer. This will keep it from speeding up. The motor has a very high compression to give no break. It needs little boost from the pipe(speed wise) It uses the pipe to govern it and keep it from getting fast. I am sure the pipe will get shorter as the heat goes up. But over 18" is not uncommon this time of year. If you squeeze the head down to get no break then shorten the pipe when it goes into a loop or square it may stay in full 4s but it will speed up on you. I try to get the motor running all 4s then goven the speed with the prop and govern the windup with the pipe. Who knows I might be crazy? Stunt motors have been known to make people crazy. Heck I bought a YS 63 this weekend what a HOSS on the stand!

DMoon