propjobbill · May 06, 2006 11:55 PM
#0 sourceAny suggestions would be helpful
Thanks Bill
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 18 of 18 known posts recovered
Any suggestions would be helpful
Thanks Bill
Scott Riese
Barry Baxter
http://www.controllineplans.com
Barry is correct, either move the engine back or hang iron C-clamps on the trailing edge until it balances. Flying wings tend to need a slightly more forward CG than conventional planes, perhaps 10%-15%MAC as opposed to 20% to 30%, but any farther forward just makes for sluggish handling.
Engine offset? The less the better,maybe 1-1.5 degrees just to ensure it's not pointed inboard.
Tension up high doesn't come from offsets, in fact the direct opposite. It comes from maintaining speed so that centrifugal force is maintained. Offsets cause yawing, slowing the plane.
The leadouts need to be moved waaayyyy forward if you're expecting it to fly well in it's present configuration. My guess, without actual "hands on" is, they would have to move forward at least to the leading edge. Again without specific info, I'd start with the LO center about 1" behind the CG,and move forward in 1/8" increments until it begins to lose tensionat 45 degrees, then go back to the last setting. The ultimate setup is when the tension is the same whether vertical overhead, or horizontal.
Ron B.
Hello Bill, as the doctor sez..."well then, don't do that", fly
slow that is. All the respondents that I've read give good advice.
I do have a question for you: when is your model flying real slow?
Is it when you have a sagging engine run,or running out of fuel; or
does it happen right after a tight turn? Besides the advice given to
you about CG and leadout position, I'd like to examine the high
potential for stall with that airfoil you are using. Simply said..
diamond airfoils are very stall prone, which was addressed in a
recent Diamon Demon thread. Oh, one last thing: you mention "outward
bank pull". Unless your model has significant wing offset,it should
not bank outwards. Still your model will provide a great trimming
experience for you.
Tony
Most of the comments about the CG and the leadout position are likely valid but until we know where the CG really is "NOW" everything is strictly speculation.
I'd like Bill to check that out for us. He likely already is familiar with the method but just in case...
Bill, pick the ship up with your index fingers, one at each tip in the same location back from the leading edge. Move them back and forth until the ship balances and doesn't want to flip forward or backward. Have a friend make a small pencil mark where your finger is on the left wing and measure the distance aft of the leading edge.
Next, measure the distance between the leadouts at the wing tip and make another pencil mark halfway between them. Measure how far aft of the leading edge the center point of the leadouts are.
Finally, measure the distance from the leading edge to the trailing edge (the "chord" of the wing).
Tell us what the measurements are and we can make a better informed response.
Theoretically, the CG should be forward of the midpoint of the leadouts an inch or so and the CG should be around 10% of the chord aft of the leading edge.
Now tell us how much it weighs, what length lines you are flying it on and what the lap times are (how fast it is going when you experience the problem).
***********************************
A quick comment about the farther forward CG than you normally hear discussed. You usually hear us smart aleck designers talk about CGs around 15 to 25% of the average chord (more correctly Mean Aerodynamic Chord or MAC. In this case of course it is the same thing since the wing isn't tapered)
A flying wing is a bit different animal from a conventional mainplane/tailplane design. In a conventional layout the pitch control comes from lift variations in the tailplane causing the wing to pitch in the desired direction.
Also, in a conventional airplane the location of the CG can be further aft because the neutral point or aerodynamic center of the entire ship is further aft. The bigger the tail the further aft the neutral point and the further aft the CG can be and remain stable and, therefore, flyable. The distance between the CG and the neutral point is called the static margin and is a measure of the stability of the airplane ... its willingness to track straight ahead primarily, in our cases, in the pitch axis.
These luxuries aren't available in a flying wing. First of all the only thing that controls the pitch of the wing is the flap on the trailing edge. Note I didn't call it an elevator ... for a very good reason.
A flying wing is in actuality a very poor scheme for ambitious pitch control; the primary reason that flying wings enjoyed a very limited period of popularity in combat before being replaced by the now ubiquitoes wing with a flying tail.
The manner in which a flying wing "turns" in pitch is the result of deflecting the flap which cambers the airfoil in a positive or negative direction. A "cambered" airfoil has a characteristic known as "pitching moment". The aerodynamic effect of this moment is to pitch the wing in the direction of the camber; nose up when the flap is deflected up and nose down when down.
As a result the ship will appear to be flying like a conventional layout but in so doing it is using the wing area in a very inefficient manner. It is like doing outside loops with a Piper Cub with a flat bottomed Clark Y sort of airfoil. I.e., given sufficient tail authority, horsepower and altitude in could be done but I'd not volunteer to be the test pilot.
This is why combat flyers quickly gravitated toward the modern flying tail concept so that the area of the wing can do its thing as efficiently as possible. Much tighter corners and much less drag result.
Back to the CG. Stability requires that the static margin be "X" distance between the CG and the N.P. (neutral point). With a flying wing the neutral point is very far forward compared to a conventional layout because of the lack of a tail or aft fuse. It is nothing but a wing and the neutral point will be located based on only the wing.
To be stable the CG must be forward of that point the same distance it would need to be forward if the N.P. was well aft due to a long, large conventional tail.
A CG near the aerodynamic center of the wing (roughly 25% of the chord on a symetrical wing) will be way to close to the N.P. and the flying wing will be very touchy and potentially unflyable. To make it work at all (and still inefficiently) the CG must be well forward and the 10% location is probably a safe place to start and anything much aft of that should be approached in small steps.
Ted
Important ps for regular stunt planes.
The phenomenom we talked about which causes the flying wing to "turn" is exactly the same phenomenom we talk about when we speak of the negative pitching moment the tail must overcome when flying a flapped ship. It's worth noting the pitching moment is enough to allow a flying wing to fly reasonably respectable maneuvers.
This is the reason we (me in particular) spend so much time talking about getting the CG back to around the aerodynamic center of the wing so as to minimize the demands on the tail to overcome the pitching moment. Once again, this is particularly important when flying in high winds and the G forces build up in maneuvers.
Thanks Bill
P.S. my average air speed is about 55 mph.
Randy C
I weighted another sheet of Coroplast 24” x 36” which is what I used for the wing it weighted in at about 13.8 oz. but this can vary from sheet to sheet. This does not include the bell crank, the hardware, or lead out wires, or paint etc.
Randy C
Brett
Randy:
you're right! Something doesn't add up!
I'll admit to the fact that my calcs are (very) approximate, but there's no way the CG is as reported.
Using the supplied data, and measurements (admittedly approximated)from the supplied photos, I've run the moments. Even the wildest WAG puts the CG at the leading edge and a more realistic evaluation puts it at about .4" in front of the leading edge. I don't know how the reported CG was determined, but theres no way, given the reported data, it's as stated.
Brett may be correct in that added tip weight may bandaid the problem, but the real solution is to get the CG/CL/L.O.position correct. The real problem is excessive yaw in the transition from level flight, causing loss of airspeed (and ground speed) and subsequent loss of tension. This is confirmed by the reported "good" line tension in level flight, to be expected with a forward CG and excessive line rake. Adding tip weight may cover up the problem, in fact may actually be necessary, but it will not make the real problem go away.
Ron B.
Put in more tip weight.
Brett
Thanks Bill
P.S. Brett I think you are right about the lift, 40 pounds may be an overstatment , but it is off the ground in less than 6' even in grass. It really wants to climb, it acts like a flat bottom airfoil but the airfoil is the same top and bottom.