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Need more outward thrust help.

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propjobbill · May 06, 2006 11:55 PM

#0 source
This is a flying wing I just completed from coroplast. It flies real nice but when it is going real slow for say 1/4 to ½ of a lap it has very little outward bank pull. I have found that rudders in the middle seam to have little effect on these wings. What can I do to get it to fly away from the center when the lines are slack. Would it help to put a flap like a rudder on the outside wing tip to create more drag.

Any suggestions would be helpful

Thanks Bill

SRiese5283 · May 07, 2006 12:15 AM

#1 source
By the looks of the photo The leadouts are to far forward.

Scott Riese

propjobbill · May 07, 2006 12:30 AM

#2 source
LAST EDITED ON May-07-06 AT 00:31 AM (CST)
 
You may be right about the location of the lead-outs. It has good pull in level flight maybe 8 pounds or so, which is nor bad for as light as the plane is. But as I start upwards it really drops off. It seems to me like there should be some way to get the plane to fly away from the center. This is accomplished on a regular plane by rudder. I friend told me that they never use rudders on these type of planes. My thoughts were if I had some kind of outer wing tip deflector it would cause more drag on the outer wing, and cause it to turn outward.
Thanks

Jim Thomerson · May 07, 2006 08:29 AM

#3 source
Often the problem of insufficient pull up high is corrected by moving the leadouts forward. Looks to me like the leadouts could be well behind your CG. Outthrust probably won't hurt. You might also try moving the CG back a little.

barenekd · May 07, 2006 11:30 AM

#4 source
LAST EDITED ON May-07-06 AT 11:33 AM (CST)
 
This has to be incredibly nose heavy. The engine should be mounted very near the leading edge. Rudders have been used on flying wings, but they are more of a styling exercise than of any great useful value. You should need very little engine offset. Like Jim said, the leadouts are probably too far benind the CG, but the CG must be ahead of the leading edge judging from the length of the nose.
The CG should be just ahead of the spar.
Bare

F4FGuy · May 07, 2006 10:02 PM

#5 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Barry is correct, either move the engine back or hang iron C-clamps on the trailing edge until it balances. Flying wings tend to need a slightly more forward CG than conventional planes, perhaps 10%-15%MAC as opposed to 20% to 30%, but any farther forward just makes for sluggish handling.

Engine offset? The less the better,maybe 1-1.5 degrees just to ensure it's not pointed inboard.

Tension up high doesn't come from offsets, in fact the direct opposite. It comes from maintaining speed so that centrifugal force is maintained. Offsets cause yawing, slowing the plane.

The leadouts need to be moved waaayyyy forward if you're expecting it to fly well in it's present configuration. My guess, without actual "hands on" is, they would have to move forward at least to the leading edge. Again without specific info, I'd start with the LO center about 1" behind the CG,and move forward in 1/8" increments until it begins to lose tensionat 45 degrees, then go back to the last setting. The ultimate setup is when the tension is the same whether vertical overhead, or horizontal.

Ron B.

Tony G · May 08, 2006 04:31 AM

#6 source
>This is a flying wing I just completed from coroplast. It
>flies real nice but when it is going real slow for say 1/4
>to ½ of a lap it has very little outward bank pull. I have
>found that rudders in the middle seam to have little effect
>on these wings. What can I do to get it to fly away from the
>center when the lines are slack. Would it help to put a flap
>like a rudder on the outside wing tip to create more drag.
>
>Any suggestions would be helpful
>
>Thanks Bill

Hello Bill, as the doctor sez..."well then, don't do that", fly
slow that is. All the respondents that I've read give good advice.
I do have a question for you: when is your model flying real slow?
Is it when you have a sagging engine run,or running out of fuel; or
does it happen right after a tight turn? Besides the advice given to
you about CG and leadout position, I'd like to examine the high
potential for stall with that airfoil you are using. Simply said..
diamond airfoils are very stall prone, which was addressed in a
recent Diamon Demon thread. Oh, one last thing: you mention "outward
bank pull". Unless your model has significant wing offset,it should
not bank outwards. Still your model will provide a great trimming
experience for you.
Tony

Ted Fancher · May 08, 2006 10:10 AM

#7 source
LAST EDITED ON May-08-06 AT 10:17 AM (CST)
 
Seems like there have been a lot of assumptions based on scant information.

Most of the comments about the CG and the leadout position are likely valid but until we know where the CG really is "NOW" everything is strictly speculation.

I'd like Bill to check that out for us. He likely already is familiar with the method but just in case...

Bill, pick the ship up with your index fingers, one at each tip in the same location back from the leading edge. Move them back and forth until the ship balances and doesn't want to flip forward or backward. Have a friend make a small pencil mark where your finger is on the left wing and measure the distance aft of the leading edge.

Next, measure the distance between the leadouts at the wing tip and make another pencil mark halfway between them. Measure how far aft of the leading edge the center point of the leadouts are.

Finally, measure the distance from the leading edge to the trailing edge (the "chord" of the wing).

Tell us what the measurements are and we can make a better informed response.

Theoretically, the CG should be forward of the midpoint of the leadouts an inch or so and the CG should be around 10% of the chord aft of the leading edge.

Now tell us how much it weighs, what length lines you are flying it on and what the lap times are (how fast it is going when you experience the problem).

***********************************

A quick comment about the farther forward CG than you normally hear discussed. You usually hear us smart aleck designers talk about CGs around 15 to 25% of the average chord (more correctly Mean Aerodynamic Chord or MAC. In this case of course it is the same thing since the wing isn't tapered)

A flying wing is a bit different animal from a conventional mainplane/tailplane design. In a conventional layout the pitch control comes from lift variations in the tailplane causing the wing to pitch in the desired direction.

Also, in a conventional airplane the location of the CG can be further aft because the neutral point or aerodynamic center of the entire ship is further aft. The bigger the tail the further aft the neutral point and the further aft the CG can be and remain stable and, therefore, flyable. The distance between the CG and the neutral point is called the static margin and is a measure of the stability of the airplane ... its willingness to track straight ahead primarily, in our cases, in the pitch axis.

These luxuries aren't available in a flying wing. First of all the only thing that controls the pitch of the wing is the flap on the trailing edge. Note I didn't call it an elevator ... for a very good reason.

A flying wing is in actuality a very poor scheme for ambitious pitch control; the primary reason that flying wings enjoyed a very limited period of popularity in combat before being replaced by the now ubiquitoes wing with a flying tail.

The manner in which a flying wing "turns" in pitch is the result of deflecting the flap which cambers the airfoil in a positive or negative direction. A "cambered" airfoil has a characteristic known as "pitching moment". The aerodynamic effect of this moment is to pitch the wing in the direction of the camber; nose up when the flap is deflected up and nose down when down.

As a result the ship will appear to be flying like a conventional layout but in so doing it is using the wing area in a very inefficient manner. It is like doing outside loops with a Piper Cub with a flat bottomed Clark Y sort of airfoil. I.e., given sufficient tail authority, horsepower and altitude in could be done but I'd not volunteer to be the test pilot.

This is why combat flyers quickly gravitated toward the modern flying tail concept so that the area of the wing can do its thing as efficiently as possible. Much tighter corners and much less drag result.

Back to the CG. Stability requires that the static margin be "X" distance between the CG and the N.P. (neutral point). With a flying wing the neutral point is very far forward compared to a conventional layout because of the lack of a tail or aft fuse. It is nothing but a wing and the neutral point will be located based on only the wing.

To be stable the CG must be forward of that point the same distance it would need to be forward if the N.P. was well aft due to a long, large conventional tail.

A CG near the aerodynamic center of the wing (roughly 25% of the chord on a symetrical wing) will be way to close to the N.P. and the flying wing will be very touchy and potentially unflyable. To make it work at all (and still inefficiently) the CG must be well forward and the 10% location is probably a safe place to start and anything much aft of that should be approached in small steps.

Ted


Important ps for regular stunt planes.

The phenomenom we talked about which causes the flying wing to "turn" is exactly the same phenomenom we talk about when we speak of the negative pitching moment the tail must overcome when flying a flapped ship. It's worth noting the pitching moment is enough to allow a flying wing to fly reasonably respectable maneuvers.

This is the reason we (me in particular) spend so much time talking about getting the CG back to around the aerodynamic center of the wing so as to minimize the demands on the tail to overcome the pitching moment. Once again, this is particularly important when flying in high winds and the G forces build up in maneuvers.

propjobbill · May 08, 2006 11:32 AM

#8 source
LAST EDITED ON May-08-06 AT 11:52 AM (CST)
 
I may be wrong, but I’m not sure it is nose heavy. Coroplast is heavy compared to balsa construction. The span is 36” the cord 12.50 “ including the elevator which goes all the way across the wing . The center of the bell crank is located 2.50 “ back from the leading edge The balance point is also 2.5” back Which puts it right in the middle of the bell crank. Looking at the plane 2.5” is where the fold of the air foil is. The Front lead out wire is back against the center spare which is in the middle of the fold of the wing. This puts the front wire right at center of gravity. The back lead out wire is about 2” behind center of gravity, which puts the center of the two wires about 1” behind center of gravity.
So according to my calculations the center of gravity is back about 20% of the cord, again I am counting the elevator as part of the cord because it goes all the way across. The elevator is 1.75” X 36”
The worst flight I’ve had was yesterday, I took off at 100% down wind. So as the plane did a climb out it was going into the wind, with a head wind of about 15 mph. It was this flight that was in question most as the plane left the ground it was slack on the lines until it came to the other side of the circle. Fortunately my lines were only 50’ long. I know you should never take off into the wind with control line so this was a mistake.
Maybe it’s just me expecting more pull than I should be getting. The total wing area is 450” at a weight of 33.8 oz. For a wing loading of 10.75 oz per sq.ft. Maybe now that you have a little more details it will make it a little easier to figure out how to improve the plane.

Thanks Bill

P.S. my average air speed is about 55 mph.

Cowboystunt1 · May 08, 2006 11:54 AM

#9 source
Something is strange indeed here. Just looking at the picture and mulling over the fact that the airplane weighs 33 oz, and that the CG is reportedly 2.5 inches frome the leading edge make it seem that the engine, tank, and landing gear must be made of helium!
Sorry, I'm not trying to be facetious but these statements simply defy visual logic.
This must be one very light engine!!
Incidentally, the bellcrank location matters not...only the lead out exit from the wing is important.
Something is "funny" with this situation.
That's the problem with being originally from Missouri, I'd have to see this for myself.

Randy C

propjobbill · May 08, 2006 02:04 PM

#11 source
The wheels are light weight foam at .7 oz. each total weight of the landing gear is about 3 oz. The engine is a .25 which weighs 5.8 oz. No muffler and tank is home build it’s about 1 =1.5 oz. so all of these are about 10 oz which makes the airframe come in at about 22 = 23 oz. As I said earlier 4 mm Coroplast is heavy compared to balsa construction. With the fold at the center of gravity 20% that means 80% of wing weight is behind CG which would be 17.6 oz behind the bell crank and 16.4 oz from there forwards my calculation may be off by some place less than an ounce. If it were 2mm Coroplast it would weigh in at about 27 to 28 oz which would made it much more nose heavy.

I weighted another sheet of Coroplast 24” x 36” which is what I used for the wing it weighted in at about 13.8 oz. but this can vary from sheet to sheet. This does not include the bell crank, the hardware, or lead out wires, or paint etc.

Cowboystunt1 · May 08, 2006 04:03 PM

#12 source
OK I believe you!
As Brett said. More tip weight will increase line tension especially on take off and overhead.

Randy C

Brett Buck · May 08, 2006 04:59 PM

#13 source
>OK I believe you!
>As Brett said. More tip weight will increase line tension
>especially on take off and overhead.

FAR more effectively than the original premise. You only have maybe 3 lbs of thrust, but *when you need it* you probably have 40 lbs of lift. The same angular offset in roll is far more effective than it would be in yaw.

Brett

F4FGuy · May 08, 2006 08:15 PM

#14 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Randy:

you're right! Something doesn't add up!

I'll admit to the fact that my calcs are (very) approximate, but there's no way the CG is as reported.

Using the supplied data, and measurements (admittedly approximated)from the supplied photos, I've run the moments. Even the wildest WAG puts the CG at the leading edge and a more realistic evaluation puts it at about .4" in front of the leading edge. I don't know how the reported CG was determined, but theres no way, given the reported data, it's as stated.

Brett may be correct in that added tip weight may bandaid the problem, but the real solution is to get the CG/CL/L.O.position correct. The real problem is excessive yaw in the transition from level flight, causing loss of airspeed (and ground speed) and subsequent loss of tension. This is confirmed by the reported "good" line tension in level flight, to be expected with a forward CG and excessive line rake. Adding tip weight may cover up the problem, in fact may actually be necessary, but it will not make the real problem go away.

Ron B.

Brett Buck · May 08, 2006 12:00 PM

#10 source
>This is a flying wing I just completed from coroplast. It
>flies real nice but when it is going real slow for say 1/4
>to ½ of a lap it has very little outward bank pull. I have
>found that rudders in the middle seam to have little effect
>on these wings. What can I do to get it to fly away from the
>center when the lines are slack. Would it help to put a flap
>like a rudder on the outside wing tip to create more drag.

Put in more tip weight.

Brett

propjobbill · May 08, 2006 09:50 PM

#15 source
LAST EDITED ON May-08-06 AT 11:53 PM (CST)
 
My outer wing tip is about 1.3 oz. I am using square rods about 5/16” square for balancing. My photo abilities may not be all that great but as you can see from both a top and bottom of the wing shot it is about 2 3/8” to 2 ½ “ back from the leading edge. The outer tip weight is located at the rear of the wing to make it more tail heavy to achieve the center of gravity further back. My initial balance was done on the tips of my fingernails. This may not be totally accurate but it is close, that is unless I don’t understand what is meant by CG. I thought the location from the front of the leading edge to where it plane balances was called the center of gravity.
I probably won’t get a chance tomorrow to fly (very busy day), if weather permits I will try bringing the total outer tip weight to 2.5 oz. Wednesday, Thursday I will be out of town for about 1 week.. I will let you know what happens when I get a chance to make the change.

Thanks Bill

P.S. Brett I think you are right about the lift, 40 pounds may be an overstatment , but it is off the ground in less than 6' even in grass. It really wants to climb, it acts like a flat bottom airfoil but the airfoil is the same top and bottom.

mpa · May 08, 2006 10:46 PM

#16 source
I think Howard has another fan. Where are the batteries?
Derek

lonesome moose · Jun 09, 2006 01:58 AM

#17 source
Well, I may be a little out of date on some things, but we used to add tip weight and make the inboard wing longer for more lift to carry the lines. I guess it also effectively put the weight of the engine more outboard. A warp in the wing or elevator might cause your problem. Or you might just have to whip that plane a bit when the engine stops.