CONTROL HANDLE ADVICE

LAST EDITED ON May-15-06 AT 05:49 PM (CST)
 
Hey all,

Looking for some help on my 1st control handle. This handle will be for 2 lines of course. I have seen only pics on web sites, the Brodak and Sig, don't look much different than the cheepo I used as a kid, can't recall which ones those were, but probably Sig?? Anyway, I want to get the most comfortable one so I can copy it, write a program and cut out a nice aluminum keeper on the CNC mill, sounds easy. This control handle will be for .049 off the bat, and hopefully progress to .40 engines.
I've trolled for walleye on Lake Erie for years and have run the gammit on all the "super-braids" and fusion lines and without a doubt, the strongest and least resistant,(with no stretch), is "POWER PRO". 30lb. test is only .011" dia. 40lb. is .012" and 65 is .016", and so on. The key to keeping knot strength & hold is the Palomar knot,(very easy to tie), or the "Uni-knot", much stronger, a bit more difficult for the novice but learnable with practice.

Where I'm going with this is what "breaking strength", or lb. test will be required for the larger engines, ie., .35-.40? Any help would be greattly appreciated, can't wait to hear the "CONTROL HANDLE" suggestions as I'm anxious to get an aluminum made.

Thanks,

LAST EDITED ON May-15-06 AT 05:55 PM (CST)
 
Can't really help on the handles just whatever fits and your comfortable with. As far as lines for a .35-.40 they MUST be at least .015 Over engine size 40 MUST be .018 up to I think 60 then you go to .021

>Can't really help on the handles just whatever fits and your
>comfortable with. As far as lines for a .35-.40 they MUST be
>at least .015
.015 stranded stainless steel.

>>Can't really help on the handles just whatever fits and your
>>comfortable with. As far as lines for a .35-.40 they MUST be
>>at least .015
> .015 stranded stainless steel.
>
> Brett

Thanks for the info Brett.

LAST EDITED ON May-15-06 AT 06:12 PM (CST)
 
Using fishing line for 1/2A engines(.049-.051) is viable (if not necessarily reccommended).
Using fishing line for larger engined CL airplanes is not only ill advised but could be very dangerous from both an injury and liability point of view. Whether or not the line is strong enough is really not the issue. The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) has published guidlines for flying lines for CL airplanes and anyone interested in maintaining safety and a reasonable position in liability action would be well advised to follow them.
The AMA provides liability insurance to members but the aircraft must be operated within reccommended safety guidlines.
Those guidelines (at the present time) are .015 stranded steel lines or .012 solid steel lines for .35-.40 size engines. Larger engines require .018 stranded and .014 solid steel lines. The terminations, or ends and clips should also be according to AMA guide lines outlined in the AMA Rule book under Control Line General Regulations.
I would strongly advise you to locate some other CL fliers in your area that are AMA members and seek their advice on lines.
As to handles, they can be a very personal device and there are many types in use. The Brodak handle is a reasonable place to start. It's safe and adjustable. Before deciding on a particular type to duplicate, get one of the brodak handles and then try to borrow different types from friends until finding the one that suits you.

>Using fishing line for 1/2A engines(.049-.051) is viable (if
>not necessarily reccommended).
>Using fishing line for larger engined CL airplanes is not
>only ill advised but could be very dangerous from both an
>injury and liability point of view. Whether or not the line
>is strong enough is really not the issue. The Academy of
>Model Aeronautics (AMA) has published guidlines for flying
>lines for CL airplanes and anyone interested in maintaining
>safety and a reasonable position in liability action would
>be well advised to follow them.
>The AMA provides liability insurance to members but the
>aircraft must be operated within reccommended safety
>guidlines.
>Those guidelines (at the present time) are .015 stranded
>steel lines or .012 solid steel lines for .35-.40 size
>engines. Larger engines require .018 stranded and .014
>solid steel lines. The terminations, or ends and clips
>should also be according to AMA guide lines outlined in the
>AMA Rule book under Control Line General Regulations.
>I would strongly advise you to locate some other CL fliers
>in your area that are AMA members and seek their advice on
>lines.
>As to handles, they can be a very personal device and there
>are many types in use. The Brodak handle is a reasonable
>place to start. It's safe and adjustable. Before deciding
>on a particular type to duplicate, get one of the brodak
>handles and then try to borrow different types from friends
>until finding the one that suits you.

Thanks for the rules Randy, appreciate the Brodak info.

Regards,

Carl Shoup sells the "Fancher" handle. A very good unit and fully adjustable too.

For 1/2A models, I modestly recommend the handle I designed as sold by RSM. They have a larger version for up to .15 size engines too.

After that, I will say that I prefer the Fancher handle sold by Carl Shoup. It is solid, adjustable as you should need, and very comforatble after you shape it to your hand.

Generally, handle feel is a BIG DEAL in how controllable a C/L model is. You want one that lets you hold your hand in a comfortable position, but still keeps the pivot points of the lines on an axis perpendicular to the lines when the plane is flying level. If you like an angled hand position, that's fine, but use a handle that will allow you to correct for it.

Factors of interest are ovehang, which gives feedback to you on how much force is required to drive the controls, the vertical position of the center of the lines compared to the center of the handle which gives feedback on the upright/inverted control. These assume that the model is flying straight out from your neutral handle position as a starting point.

I happen to prefer the eye-level handle position, and set the neutral up so that the handle will obscure the airplane when the handle is at eye level. In actuallity, I fly with the handle lower than that, but that is how I try to set it up. If the model is above or below this position, I reset the elevator neutral at the handle. (If insides and outsides are noticeably different, there is more to do with respect to flap/elevator position)

Trim is just about EVERYTHING as far as flying qualities are concerned. Designs are pretty much all OK by now, and it is really hard to screw up construction of a modern kit or ARF. When you get it in the air is when you have a chance to make it a winner or loser.

LAST EDITED ON May-16-06 AT 01:01 AM (CST)
 
>Where I'm going with this is what "breaking strength", or
>lb. test will be required for the larger engines, ie.,
>.35-.40? Any help would be greattly appreciated, can't wait
>to hear the "CONTROL HANDLE" suggestions as I'm anxious to
>get an aluminum made.

To give you some idea..

For 7 strand 302 Stainless (the usual American lines), .012" is rated at 25 pounds breaking strength, .015" at 40 pounds, and .018" at 55 pounds. If you want to try the Spectra line, go with twice the breaking strength and you should be OK, since knots (even the Palomar knot) weaken a line greatly. You should easily be able to find kite line at 80 to 100 pounds breaking strength. Make sure you sleeve the ends like the kite fliers do.

Design Man,

Thanks for the info. Very informative!

In the 1950s I used an E-Z Just stunt handle.

In the 1970s I used a Fox C-L handle.

Thanks to Ebay I now use both E-Z Just and Fox handles. Not only do I enjoy the nostalgia but they suit me just fine.

I flew with John McCollum (1965 Nats Rat Race Champ)in the 50s and 60s. He is getting a little long in the tooth with a poor memory! He used the EZ-Just Hot Rock, not that long unweildy Stunt version!

>I flew with John McCollum (1965 Nats Rat Race Champ)in the
>50s and 60s. He is getting a little long in the tooth with a
>poor memory! He used the EZ-Just Hot Rock, not that long
>unweildy Stunt version!
>
>Larry Fulwider

There are two John McCollum(s) that fly CL. One lives in Texas, one in Maine. Steve

>I flew with John McCollum (1965 Nats Rat Race Champ)in the
>50s and 60s. He is getting a little long in the tooth with a
>poor memory! He used the EZ-Just Hot Rock, not that long
>unweildy Stunt version!
>
>Larry Fulwider

Hi Larry, Johnnyarcana is not the same John McCollum that posts here.
I think the John McC you are thinking of moved to Texas. He taught me
a lot about diesels,Cox engine setup and racing setup.
He lived in Lake Forest Calif when I saw him last.
As an aside, are you the same Larry F. that used to fly Fast Combat
with a monoline Voodoo?
Tony G

LAST EDITED ON May-18-06 AT 07:39 AM (CST)
 
Tony G said:

>Hi Larry, Johnnyarcana is not the same John McCollum that
>posts here.
>I think the John McC you are thinking of moved to Texas. He
>taught me
>a lot about diesels,Cox engine setup and racing setup.
>He lived in Lake Forest Calif when I saw him last.

Thanks for the info! Yes, you are describing the "real" John McCollum, engine builder par excellence, and very smart guy that (last I knew) lived in Texas. Probably the best Race pilot ever, on the FAI Team Race team, etc.

>As an aside, are you the same Larry F. that used to fly Fast
>Combat with a monoline Voodoo?

Hah! Yes and No! That is an "urban legend" that somehow got attached to my name! I remember a contest in the 60s where someone congratulated me on giving up on monoline! I never flew monoline at all. Monoline requires two hands, as I recall. In combat, you have to fly one handed, switch hands at times, and keep one hand free to goose your opponent.
Well, I always carried several sets of lines in combat. If they were not miking lines, I flew .012s. So maybe some thought it monoline?

By the way, John and his partner Bill made the best stunt handle, in my opinion, ever. I don't know if they still make it or not.

Bill Lee will probably chime in here. But yes it is available from BIll and is a well made piece of equipment.
don Burke

Hi Don,

How do I go about getting pricing, details of this control handle?

Regards,

About handles They are very personal The Fancher one has become the top handle among the top flyers around here , no doubt . They are about $25. each for a kit you build it yourself The most reasonable priced one is the ones Tom Morris put on the market. I see them a lot being used by beginners and many more. I assume that the price is the incentive.They come as a kit Find them here
http://www.clcentral.com/products.asp?cat=59
Keith Varley

Attached is a pic of the Bill Lee / John McCollum handle. Some reasons I like it are:

1. You can't pick it up upside down, with the prominent adjustment knob on the top. Picking up a handle upside can make for a very embarrassed CL pilot.

2. The adjustment knob is smooth as silk. If you want to show off, make an adjustment while flying inverted!

3. The finger area of the grip is all wood, so you can shape the finger grips to fit your hand exactly, whether you have large hands or small hands. Then, it becomes YOUR handle, not a purchased one. My little finger is smaller than average, so I like it snugged up against the third finger. The pic shows my mods for my hand. (OOPS -- the file didn't upload--I'll check with Leonard to see what I did wrong)

4. The arcs in front of your fingers mean that decreasing sensitivity (decreasing line spacing) also increases overhang (adds to feedback). Leonard Neumann hated that feature. For most of us it is a plus, as generally us older folks lose feel and eyesight at about the same rate. Decreasing line spacing means you gain feel (more overhang) -- so that you can still feel the plane even when you can't see it!

5. It looks right. As I recall, it comes unfininshed. I used cherry stain and rattle can clear poly.

Good Luck

With any luck (and a lot of help from Leonard)here is the pic. Note that I knocked down the third and little finger separation and diminished the first and second separation. The stock shape is a little more like the Brodak.

Bob,

There are still commercially available, "reasonably" priced old fashioned handles that are plenty strong enough, as purchased, for .35-.40 models, and larger...

Sullivan, for instance, offers a somewhat adjustable handle for under $10 (last I saw, anyway.)

Something like that will get you started again, and act as a spare if you have more than one model to fly. It is recommended current practice to match up lines, model and handle - then keep that set dedicated, together, and not tinkered with without reason. It's a good idea! No fishing for neutral every time you go to fly; confidence that the handle will feel 'right.'

The custom handles are great, and most appreciated by fliers with good current experience. I hope you move (back) to that level quickly.

BTW, welcome back to the friendly skies of control-line. You won't often meet nicer people flying small airplanes...

If I get back into 1/2A with any seriousness, I'll get one of Larry's handles. My present 1/2A handle is made out of good 1/8 ply. It has balsa for hand grips and the whole thing is D shaped. The bar in front is 1/2 wide and has a piece of 1/8 x 1/2 spruce bolted to it with three 2-56 bolts. The spruce has grooves cut in it so I have three possible positions for each cable end. The cable locks on the center bolt. Crude but effective.

I like the old style Sullivan handle for smaller airplanes, say up to 19 size. It is a D shaped piece of galvanized tin with a plastic grip glued on. There are brass grommets in the front tin bar so some line spacing adjustment is possible. The newer Sullivan handles are similar but don't allow very close line spacing.

The major handle adjustments I use are neutral and line spacing. Some concern themselves with overhang, which is how far the line attachment points are in front of the handle.

Pay attention to your handle cables. I had cables break twice in a Sullivan handle flying a TD 09. No damage either time; not gonna be a third time.