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First Impressions

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EJV · May 23, 2002 03:02 PM

#0 source
First Impressions:

Hey Y'all, just thinking as I read through some ideas posted here about focusing more on the flying aspect, and I got curious about the effect of "First Impressions".

How many of us as kids, or beginners in this sport/hobby, had been fumbling along and having a good time, and then…you went to your first contest and saw somebody really put on a show. Maybe a HotRock doing the pattern at 90MPH, or a big PA ship that flew slow and smoothly like it was on rails?

I guess what I'm getting at is; does this still affect you to this day? Maybe it does, and more so than you think unless you really stop and examine yourself.

I brought it up, so I'll go first; I find that I really enjoy a certain style pattern and the way those engines and ships presented. I really like the way some big ships ( like the USA1, GeoXL, Shark, Tom Dixon's BigTbird60, Patternmaster Etc.) with the older grunt power plant ST60, seem to almost pause on square corners, appear to pivot right on the flaps, and then gently accelerate to the next corner. I also find I like to watch a smooth pattern, one that flows, at the expense of those blistering corners and seemingly faster pace of the more modern piped ships.

I find this is from early exposure at my first contest back in the early 80's, and watching, of all people, a young Tom Dixon fly his Big Tbird through really rough winds, but yet flying what I concluded at the time was the most slow and graceful pattern I had ever seen, and this was with his Big Tbird60. (I think running a ST60 or Merco at the time?) Also my stunt mentor EddyR with his seemingly endless supply of ST46 powered I-beamers have tuned my ears to listen for "that stunt grunt sound".

In comparative hindsight, I've watch Tom fly recently, still running conventional setups like his DoubleStars and his TimeMachine variants, along side others on the modern setups (this is NOT meant to be a ST60 VS/ PIPE thread!!!! Those comments are better left back in the 90's, thankyou!) and I know now that there are people that still score higher than him and others that still fly that style setup, but I still enjoy watching ships like this fly more than most others. My friend Ed recently took a walk down memory lane by building a USA-1, and I kept telling him how nice it presented from the outside of the circle, despite some of his complaints as he trimmed it out. It just looked right to me.

In my minds eye, this is what I find myself shooting for in my choice of stunt ships and power plants today.

OK, what made it's first impression on YOU? And how does it still effect you to this day?


EricV

Bob Reeves · May 23, 2002 03:21 PM

#1 source
Ya mine is Bobby Hunt flying his Genesis 46 at the 76 Nats..
4-1/2 foot flat bottoms and that Tigre just did what it was supose to do..

Tools · May 23, 2002 06:58 PM

#2 source
If only... I had been trying to learn to fly c/l for nearly 2 years before I could ever get through a full tank of gas. Never saw anyone else fly c/l for 5 or 6 years. Never saw a full pattern flown for 25 years after my first "flight". Never saw a contest for 27 years... As far as I know I was the only person regularly flying c/l when I was a kid for a 200 to 300 mile radius.

For what it's worth, not trying to gain sympathy, but I can tell you this is NOT the way to learn c/l. Those memories you speak of for me are looking out the window of my last period 7th grade math class (Mr. Claus) and NOT seeing the trees moving (uh, Nebraska, windless days are rare). Must be a good night to fly! Then spending a couple hours trying to get it started, cutting up all my fingers, hoping my sister had enough patience to be there when it did start running. Anything over a dozen laps before I pancaked it in and had to recover it or rebuild my wing center section was a good evening. As crazy as it sounds, these GREAT memories keep me coming back to c/l. Took one model to school in 9th grade for a "how to" speech I had to give. Explained the model, gased it up and fired her up right there! Teacher didn't really know what I was doing, but when it fired up I got her attention. Fox 35, no muffler, totally filled the class with the awesome smell (and smoke) of castor oil. The WHOLE school (some 350 kids) heard it.

A little different I know, but these were my first impressions.

Tools

Jim T. · May 23, 2002 08:02 PM

#3 source
My "learn to fly CL" is similar to tool's. I still remember the first flight (1953) where I crashed because I was dizzy rather than inept. The first pattern I ever saw, 1955, was George Aldrich flying a new Nobler. I was very impressed--impressed that there was no way I could ever learn to do that. In 1977, 22 years later, PAMPA skill classes were in general use, and I decided to give it a try. My first stunt contest entry was in 1978 at Moose Allan's contest. I still have the second-place in Beginner ribbon I won that day.

JIm

RocketCityJim · May 23, 2002 08:11 PM

#4 source
Simply two answers:

1. Hans Pearson flying his Pegasus design. My first glimpse of control-line stunt flying, or any control-line flying for that matter. I thought that was tops until:

2. Watching Bob Palmer fly his upright engine Thunderbird at the 1958 California State Stunt Champoinships. That particular one was in Selma CA. It was on rails with that Veco just humming in a deep fourstroke. Absolutly Awesome. Something I will never ever forget!

Jim Pollock

Tony Elmore · May 25, 2002 03:21 AM

#5 source
The first time I saw control line planes they scared me!

My heroes were two guys called Martin King (moved North - got into kites) and Roy Lovell (died young).

Martin I remember flew an Oliver Tiger/APS Dominator, an OS19/KK Sceptre, a Merco 35/APS Thunderbolt he'd just finished an APS Firefly (the Warburton one) with a ST 46 (which he could not get to start) when he (or I) dissappeared off the scene.

Roy I remember having a Rivers Streak/APS Liquidator, an OS 35/Mercury Crusader and a Merco 35/APS U2 (another Warburton design).

These were the two I remember as the best fliers around. Martin was much the superior flier. Altough neither could fly the pattern.

One day at the field one of the guys we knew as a slope soarer arrived with a beat up old Thunderbird with a Merco 35 which had not seen the light of day for about 8 or 9 years and flew the entire schedule with it - Harry Timms was his name I think - Roy and Martin's jaws dropped through the floor.....

I also saw Jim Mannall flying one of his Merco 35/Nimrods and Steve Maple (?/Nobler) flying the pattern around that time.

Memories, memories....

Stooge · May 25, 2002 05:38 AM

#6 source
Went to the 'Navy Nats' at Glenview near Chicago sometime in the late fifties, I think. Best friend's dad took us. Up to that time, neither of us had ever seen or flown anything bigger than 1/2A. Can't be sure of the year. Saw a Stuka fly the pattern. Dod Stills? I don't know, but the pilot sure could fly. To this day it seems to me his pattern was much tighter than we fly today. The squares and especially the triangles were quite small. Probably just my faulty memory because I seem to remember the pilot doing a triangle dead stick and whipping the plane for a lap or two... Doesn't seem possible to me now. I guess my mind has embellished things a bit.

Stooge

Currell · May 25, 2002 09:20 AM

#7 source
With me, it was some unknown dude flying a Tom Tom in the late 50s at the Alexandria (Va) Sailing Marina. We had two nice circles there then. This is only about a mile or so away from Washington (now Reagan) National Airport.

Out there, there would be the occasional free flight. Sometimes, they would end up in the Patomac! So you had to have a boat handy.

Funny how some things stay with you. Like someone out at the Marina drove a late '40s Lincoln Zephyr V-12.

Currell

John Miller · May 25, 2002 03:02 PM

#8 source
This makes for a nice trip down memory lane, to a gentler time when the pace wasn't so hectic. I have three basic first impressions that have lasted over the years.

First was the first time I saw any sort of powered model flown. he year was 1947, I was 4 years old, but the memory is still vivid. My parents took me and my newborn baby sister to the park in town. (SLC) We were having a picnic lunch on a Sunday afternoon. It had to be Sunday, as that was the only day of the week my father had off in those post war days.

As is the want of any active 4 year old, I was running all over the park, but things took a drastic turn when first one car then several others atarted unloading models from the trunks. These were sure differnt from the windup balsa, silk and wire framed models my parents had supplied me with previously.

To me, these were huge. 3 foot or better in wingspan. Some of them were brightly colored, and you know how that can catch a childs attention. The "men", ( 19-30 years old ) proceeded to line their models up in a flight line, and I, for once a bit subdued, was allowed to get pretty close to them and look them over.

I remember the noise when the first one was fired up, I backed up a few feet, but couldn't take my eyes off the model. The guy who had started the engine twiddled with it a moment. The sound from the engine changed and he then ran out to his handle. I didn't know what to expect, as I had never seen anything like this before.

With a wave of his hand, the model was released and litterally jumped into the air, going 'round and 'round with that wonderful doppler effect accenting the motion. I was mesmerized watching the plane and not paying attention to any activities in the pits, so jumped in suprize when a second engine was started. Soon there was another plane in the air, chasing the first plane. They were racing each other and one was considerably faster. It climbed to pass and I figured out that the guys in the center had some way of making the planes fly where they wanted them. Neat.

All to soon, the noise lessened as one engine stopped and the pilot started a glide for a landing. The other plane made passes at the gliding plane fortelling what would happen next.

After they were both on the ground, two more planes were lined up, but this time, they were tying rolls of crepe paper to the tails of their planes. I was totally unprepared as a child of 4 for what happened next.

Quickly, both planes were started. I didn't jump from the noise as I expected it. The crepe paper streamers were whipping in the wind from the propellors. The first plane was launched, shortly followed by the second. Around and 'round they went. I thought it looked neat with the streamers flowing behind the planes, thinking this was going to be the same as the first flight.

Suddenly both planes started manuevering, trying to close the gaps on each other. Soon, one plane was behind the other and was jerking up and down trying to cut the streamer of the plane in front, but the in front looped and wind up behind the chasing plane. Suddenly a 3 foot piece of a streamer was floating down from the sky and some of the men were cheering, but it wasn't over yet. More wild manuevering and another piece of streamer began floating to the ground.

Right side up, upside down, climbing and diving, the airial dogfight continued until one of the planes made a close pass and took off all the streamer from his opponent. Then he chased the streamer, trying to cut it again and again as it floated to the ground.

One of the pieces wound up landing near me and of course, I had to have it. It smelled funny and I could see where the prop had chewed through it. They flew like that for several hours.

This was my introduction to powered model flight, and from what I've been told, most likely the first combat meet in the State of Utah.

I now belong to that same club, and some of those guys are still active members. None of them know the effect they had on a 4 year old boy that day.

The second memory is of my first "gas" powered plane. It was Christmas, 1952. For work, my folks had moved us to LA. I was 9 years old, going on 10. By now, I was known to be an airplane junky.

I built Strombecker solids, Plastics from Revell and Monogram, and when the mood struck and no kits were available I would carve my own from pieces of wood I would find.

I woke up, (Did anyone really sleep Christmas Eve when they were 9?) My folks had a rule, my sister and I could not go into the living room until they were up and with us. It was hard to obey that rule, but we did it.

Of course Mom and Dad were duly awakened at 6 AM. I'm sure it was to build our suspense, but they had to make coffee and breakfast first, (Oh how they loved to drag this out) before going into the living room.

Is or was anything so magical as Christmas morning, with the lights, (bubble lights) twinkling and reflecting off the tinsel for a 9 year old child? I still believed in Santa Clause, just in case, even though the ugly rumors had been heard at school.

My parents were not wealthy, but they always tried their best to make this time of the year special for us kids.

After going through the presents, and opening the normal assortment a child would normally expect, even the prerequiset new clothing, Dad told me to look way behind the tree. I'd totally missed the fact that there, hiding just so I wouldn't see it was a large colorfully wrapped box, with my name on it, from Santa. (Sure glad I hadn't given up and believed the rumors)

I had no idea what it might be. I picked it up and as children often do, hoisted it, shook it a little, puzzled over what it might be. Soon, the exuberance of youth could no longer be contained and it was quickly unwrapped. The first thing I saw was in big letters COX TD-3. The box had a celophane window that allowed me to see inside. There was the most gorgeous plane I had ever seen before, and it had a real "gas" engine mounted to the front of it.

I was so enamored by this gift. I actually never flew it because I was afraid that I would crash it. Dad wanted to take me out and learn to fly it, but I refused. It's too bad because 4 years later I had to remove the engine to use on another plane and the LA smog had destroyed the plane. The thin Styrene reacted with the caustic smog and had developed cracks.

I still remember fondly running my hand over the curves of the apple cheek cowls, and in my mind there was a streamer floating snake like to the ground while I chased it, trying for one last cut before it settled to the ground.

Then there was the time I finally soloed my first Cl plane. My best friend at 14 was Bob Sullivan. He was a year or two older than I, and we were in Scouts together. I used to spend Saturdays and often slept over at his house. Bob lived at the end of a cul-de-sac. One day he brought out a CL plane That he had just bought with his paper route money.

It was made by K&B and was powered with an .049 engine. The same size as the one in my still unflown TD-3, but it didn't look like the one in my plane. The pane was made of aluminum, folded over into a delta wing. No fuse, just that little K&B mounted in front and some springy gear hanging below. We decided we were going to learn how to fly that day.

Since it was Bob's plane, he got the first flight. We started the engine by folowing the instructions. No breakin, we just needled it up to where it sounded like it was going as fast as it could, then backed it off 2 clicks like the instructions said to do.

I held the plane while Bob ran out, picked up the handle, and motioned me to release the plane. It accelerated while Bob held full up. suddenly it was airborn, climbing, up and up, and over, and into the asphalt. A perfect figure 9. We were both sure that the plane was toast.

It was lying on it's back, those spindle legs pointing at the sky. Bob turned it over, and we were both suprized that the sturdy aluminum wing wasn't damaged, niether was the engine.

Now, it was my turn. The motor was started. I ran out to the handle, and made sure up was up. a wave of my hand and the sturdy little wing was on it's way. Half way around the circle with full up, and I preceded to duplicate Bob's flight to a tee.

Still no damage. It took a few more tries and we figured out that we shouldn't give any control until the plane was going faster. Bob figured this out first. I think he was tired of the short flights and was just going to let it race around on the ground like a tethered car.

After slightly more than a lap, the wing lifted itself into the air smoothly. Up, down, up, down, ever faster and larger PIO's. (I later learned the term, for Pilot Induced Oscilations.) But, he made it almost 2 laps before the plane just wasn't able to pull up in time. We had to bend the gear back because this time the gear took most of the abuse from the crash.

Bob told me what he did to get the plane airborn, and how he thought it would be best to not give too much control.

My turn. I followed his advice, the plane became airborn. It suddenly started to climb, ( I was instinctivly giving it up to get some altitude, away from the asphalt.) I tried to give it just a little down, but alas, too much and I got locked into the same PIO cycle that Bob had.

None the less, we were on our way, and before the day was over, had learned to let the plane fly itself. After a lap or two, we could give small amounts of control and it would rise or lower to wherever we wanted it.

I forget, which of us was the first to fly out a tank of fuel. It really doesn't matter, as that was the day we both soloed our first Cl plane. After the lessons learned that day, I built and flew many 1/2A planes, using the engine from the unflown TD-3.

Within 6 months I bought my first big plane, a Sterling Mustang and a 5.95 Red head engine. All bought with paper route money, and all I could afford.

My McCoy lasted me years, as I was lucky enough to have met some older fliers who taught me how to properly break in and run the engine. The most memorable combination was that McCoy 4 stroking a Nobler through the pattern. totally reliable and easier to start than my buddies Fox. Yes, those were the days of lazy Saturdays spent in the school yard. All day long flying flight after flight.

Sure wish I could fly in the school yard now.

John Miller

EddyR · May 25, 2002 08:45 PM

#9 source
My start in controline was very differant than those above and what I first saw in 1954 has had a effect on me for 50 years.I started to fool with cotroline in 1948-49 not having a clue how to fly. I saw a lot of guys flying over the next few years but never talked to them as they were older guys 18-25 years old. In 1954 I went and watched Superman fly. Thats how he looked to a 14 year old. His name was Jerry Hicky and Jerry flew All American Sr type models. Jerry and three others were hard core contest types going to Free Flight and controline contest almost every weekend in the NYS & Penn. We lived in Binghamton NY half way between Buffalo and New York city. This was a hot bed of controline and I went from knowing no one to flying with some of the best flyers in the northeast in a month. Jerry flew fast and low,perfect corners,he would scare the shi? out of you on ever flight.Jerry Hicky is not a well known name but I saw Jerry fly free flight and then go to the controline circle with no practice and out fly Harold Reinhardt in the New York City area in the mid 50's. I wonder may times if I am a better flyer than Jerry was,as he only flew for 10-12 years and I have been at it for over 50 years.I still like to think Superman is better than me.
EddyR

kdheath · May 25, 2002 08:49 PM

#10 source
Watching Riley Wooten carve a hot chunk of night West Texas air completely to ribbons with a kit prototype Voodoo. I know it isn't stunt, but where I grew up, Real Men did combat and rat racing.

pnj · May 26, 2002 10:01 AM

#11 source
i can add to this.....

as a young boy i was fasinated with planes. my father was a school teacher and would bring home the students old papers and tests for me to fold into airplanes.

after throwing them around the house they would end up in the wood stove to start the fires.

soon he would bring home balsa planes that i had to build. small gliders and such. but i got to cut out the wood, lay the parts on the wax paper covered plans and glue away.

somehow i ended up with a cox plane. not sure what one but it seems like it was a f-14 or something.

i have memorys of standing in a field, with a small piece of wood for a take off, trying and trying to start the engine.

i have no memorys of the plane ever flying. despite this i know i bought 2 or 3 more cox planes in my youth. they didn't fly either.

i do remember taking the engines off the planes and puting them on cars i had made out of wood. i would start the engine and let it fly around the front yard until the engine stoped.

despite having never flown a plane i bought a ringmaster kit and a .35 RC engine. i had to mail order it and they told me i could convert the engine for C/L.

i built the whole plane, covered it with monokote and then i discovered girls.....

that was the last i remember until a few months ago when i had a dream i was flying my little plane in the field next to my parents house(seriously). only this time, the plane actually went round and round!

i went to the hobby store that week and got a PT-19. i brought it home and put the little blue and yellow guy together. i sat it on the couch and just staired at it.

once the weather got better, i called a friend and invited him along for the first flight. he said his brother had cox planes as a kid. "cool", i thought, "he has some experience with these things."

i took the plane into the backyard to make sure the engine would start. i read the instructions, primed the engine and flipped the prop. and flipped the prop. and flipped the prop....

it wouldn't start. i went through tank after tank and all i could get was the BRAApp of it wanting to start.
i went back inside to read the instructions. I had done everything it said.....
after a few HOURS of this i decided to shut the needle valve all the way down. i would give it 4 or 5 good trys and open it 1/4 and try 4 or 5 more trys and open it another 1/4.

after 20 or so trys it fired up! and stayed running!

i met my friend and discovered he had never flown the planes, his brother just had them....

we flew that plane into the ground so many times and it still came back for more. as it was all held together with rubber bands the crashes were spectacular. all the parts flying off.
us not sure if it would still fly....

then i met some of the locals around here and saw my first real flying. they flew upside down!! and did loops! and they flew until the tank was empty!!!

now i'm building a skyray and will power it with the fox .35 that one of the locals gave me.(he GAVE me!!)


somehow i get the feeling that this is the just begining of my story.....


i brought it home

wcrane · May 27, 2002 07:53 AM

#12 source
LAST EDITED ON May-27-02 AT 07:57 AM (CST)

I was conceived and grew up in the flight path of Forbes Air Force base. I've been plane crazy my whole life. I had a PT-19 as a child, around 2nd or 3rd grade I remember. We flew it till there wasn't enough pieces to fly. Dad and Mom were school teachers, so there was no money for such things on a regular basis, or time. But I built free flight balsa and plastic planes with what little money I could scrounge.

In high school I got my first job and with the money from that I bought a kit from a local Bait shop that also sold model airplane kits. I figured it was a good deal because there were two kits in one. The fact that it was a Combat Cat made it sound even sexier. After getting it all painted and ready to go, I went back and purchased a Fox 25, the biggest engine I'd ever seen and mounted it up. Ready to fly but without lines yet, I showed it to my explorer post instructore who had some model airplane experience. He told me that it was too hot an airplane to start with and recomended I find something else. He flew RC airplanes now and showed me a tower catalog. I converted the Fox into RC, bought a muffler and put it in a trainer and started flying RC. My meager school time job, and girlfriend, left little money for airplanes. I remember months of needing both props and fuel and not having the money for both. Finally out of college and in my first REAL job, I had a couple RC projects going but stopped by the Wichita field where folks were flying Control Line. I've done this before, but fly RC now, can I help? Sure, hold this plane, when I get the engine started, that guy is gonna wave at you, you let it go and then hold mine and we'll go fly some combat, sorry we don't have a trainer or anything slow to get you up on. No problem I said. So he fired it up, I let go when the guy waved, and hit the deck 2 seconds later when it came around. RC instincts told me that when an airplane is coming your way, get out of the way, didn't register that the plane was on wires. They laughed their butts off, me too. So after the first guy got down, we started again. It took that long for the engine starting guy to stop laughin. So Combat was the first thing I saw. I stopped at the recomended hobby shop and bought a Ringmaster. I converted the Fox 25 back to CL and got everything set up and looking good. Then I got married, laid off, and poor. I had to move and the plane was squashed flat after a box fell over on it.

What really stunk was after all the time in high school and college before I moved to wichita, NOBODY told me that Topeka was a hot bed of CL activitiy. I just got back from the 25th annual TOPLClassical Control line contest which would have put me about right. All the money I'd spent in RC and done nothing would have been multiples of 10 in control line. That really hurt, I could have been flying all along. After finally getting a slightly better than minimum wage job, moving a couple times, I wandered into the CL circle at the park one day. Hell, I'd lived half a mile away, knew the circle was there, but thought that it wasn't used for CL anymore, just more park area, I'd just never been there at the right time. Jim Lee and son Todd were flying, practicing for that years Topclass contest, Jim was working on it for the SIG event. They put me up on the club trainer, it was nuts. But I came back the next week with the 15 bucks for club dues and was just in time to help during the contest. And watched Racing and carrier and balloon bust-with a Gyro of course! and PAMPA stunt and old time and speed, it was fantastic. I bought another Ringmaster, bought a Fox 35 and gpt ot togehter while trainin on the club trainer. Then I went through hell as my 40th anniversary specials kept falling apart. Eventually, I got some planes flying a skyray 35, a Banshee, and finally a modified banshee that I called the Sudden Impact. A pretty good flying ship which I recieved my highest contest scores with, till this weekend, with. I may build another for P-40 flying if I can find my plans and rib outline. Then work made me move again and lack of time put me without flying buddies for CL, so I started flying RC again and joined the local club. I became one of the clubs engine gurus and intro pilot. Not because I modified engines any, but because I could start, adjust and run any engine. "Get WR to do it, he's one of those CL guys and they know engines" is what they'd say. It was 4 years before I bought my first electric starter. That thing will last a long time as I only use it on REALLLY finicky engines, usually TT 10's or such. I also use it during combat competitions or really cold weather. But most other times I would fascinate the RC guys by pulling the prop through and getting 1 or 2 flip starts on their engines. The club intro pilot thing was just cuzz I was always there, and when not teaching folks to fly, I was doing touch and gos and other silly stuff that was continously stretching my abilities while many folks just plowed through the air a couple laps, got it somewhere down on terra firma and then went back to the pits to shake off the effects.

About 2-3 years ago, I started seriously flying RC combat and hearin lies my damnation. Nothing, NOTHING compares to combat, the thrill, the adrenalin rush. All other aspects of RC Flying become nothing more than target practice, boring. Keepin the airplane in the landing pattern and greasing it in is nothing if you've had to do it with a crippled plane. It isn't un-usual to bring back a plane without streamer slide it into the landing zone, fuel, re-equip with streamer, start, launch and get back into the fray in 30 seconds to less than a minute. Yea, you're moving at high gear. But as family has gotten more and more time consuming, I've only been able to make the field on meeting nights and at combat events, which was ok because everthing else just kinda blows chunks.

After analying it, I realized that the most fun that I've ever had flying, wasn't even in RC combat though. It was during mass flys once with 15 people in the same circle. I haven't sold my RC gear yet, YET. My 3 8103 computer radios capable of controlling my 30 differenet receivers in their respective aircraft, or my Hitec Focus 3 and it's 3 airplanes set up the old mechanical way like I did before the computer radios. But I'm looking at a bunch of RC airplanes that I never fly anymore, some for a year now, maybe more, and figuring just how many quality Pampa Stunters I could have if I just convert those planes. Dangit, the better portion of them are combat planes, but I could get 75 bucks a flight pack, 30 bucks for the plane. Some of the finer planes I have would bring in 200 bucks, maybe more, maybe less. And some, well, we'd better just give those away!

Dangit, this is a first impression thread not a life story thread, sorry. My first impression, not counting the roar of aircraft taking young men to Vietnam or my pt-19, those combat guys, laughin and then finally the Lee's and the Topclass event, I think I'm gonna go home.
From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
aka Mr. Clean