BY&O Props, just pretty faces?

A friend gave me a handful of these very retro looking paddle blade props. Beautiful wood grain, would be nice for display on an Old Timer. Obvious question is, are they worth spending time to try out for actual flying?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore

LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-06 AT 08:42 PM (CST)
 
A lot of people still use them to fly!!

This probably should not be in the classified section though.

>A lot of people still use them to fly!!
>
>This probably should not be in the classified section
>though.

And now it isn't. These were originally produced by Yates and Orwick (Y & O). They were discontinued for a number of years and then Clarence Bull began production again using the original hand tools (Thus BY&O.) Before his death John Brodak bought the tooling and began to have them made (continuing the BY&O theme).

They are a good prop for many stunt applications in the proper sizes. Do you have the early ones or the later ones, or don't you know?

>>A lot of people still use them to fly!!
>>
>>This probably should not be in the classified section
>>though.
>
>And now it isn't. These were originally produced by Yates
>and Orwick (Y & O). They were discontinued for a number of
>years and then Clarence Bull began production again using
>the original hand tools (Thus BY&O.) Before his death John
>Brodak bought the tooling and began to have them made
>(continuing the BY&O theme).
>
>They are a good prop for many stunt applications in the
>proper sizes. Do you have the early ones or the later ones,
>or don't you know?

Leonard,
Oops, didn't realize I was still in the Classified section when posting. Thanks for moving it.

I don't know whether these are the early or later props. They are labelled in green ink with a plane towing a streamer saying B-Y&O PROPS, and under the plane HARRISBURG, OREGON. The size is also marked on the hub in green. The wood grain is beautiful, variegated. They are all 11x5 and 11x6. I'm currently running an APC 11x5 on my Brodak .40 in a 35 oz. Old Timer. The B.40 spins the APC happily. Of course it has a much narrower blade than the B-Y&O.

Any light that can shed on how best to use these props is appreciated.

Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Kim,

Those props are from Clarence's shop.

In other words, you can't easily get more, certainly cannot count on a nice supply.

Use 'em up, but I wouldn't spend much time developing a tune-up which incorporates these props. See above for why.

Those with the Oregon city on them are the ones Clarence produced. Great props. The Brodak props have the same emblem with Carmichaels, Pennsylvania printed on them. Same prop from the same machine. But some of the first ones out of Brodaks needed some work to the trailing edges. I called for some props last week and the machine is still down.

I guess I've had a long association with Y&O props. As a high school student in the early '50s I sanded a lot of Y&O props in my garage. I don't remember just how much I got for sanding them, but it was enough to keep me in balsa wood for a while. Henry Orwick supplied the sanding machine and the rough props.

When Clarence Bull started making the Y&O props in Harrisburg, OR, I visited his operation and was treated to the complete production sequence, which was very labor-intensive. I even took pictures, and wrote an article for STUNT NEWS about the B-Y&O operation.

Much of the B-Y&O inventory was bought by a hobby shop here in Springfield, OR. I bought about $600 worth of them, and I have since passed them on to my friends.

Clarence used several kinds of wood. His hard maple props are the most valuable. But he also used some softer woods which are not worth much.

Brodak tried to make the Y&O props, but the ones I ordered from Brodak were so bad that I sent them back. Perhaps someone will be able to make some really good Y&O props one of these days.

Floyd in OR.

I've tried several (stock but balanced) Bull Y&O props on various models and never found any magic that the correct sized APC or Graupner couldn't exceed. Your mileage may vary... Steve

>I've tried several (stock but balanced) Bull Y&O props on
>various models and never found any magic that the correct
>sized APC or Graupner couldn't exceed. Your mileage may
>vary... Steve
>
>Steve Helmick
>Renton, Washington
>USA

This is an interesting reply, Steve, because props are not equal. It is like saying you tried a Bolly and found a Zinger worked better. In certain applications, and with a certain size prop, you will actually be correct. The APC is a very harsh prop with a thick airfoil. The Y&O prop is a thin airfoil with a wide blade. You cannot swap a 10-6 of one with a 10-6 of another and get equal results. Same with a Zinger and a Top Flite or a Rev-Up. Rev-Ups and Y&O props are a lot closer, but will still have variances. You may find that you like an 11-5 APC and an 11-6 Y&O on the same engine. Or you may cut down the diameter of one to match the load of the other. We found with our 35 FP conversion that we could run a 12-6 Zinger or a 12-6 Rev-Up (better) and even a 12.5 x 5.5 Bolly (the best one of the lot). But we could not run a 12-6 Wooden Windsor. It didn't make the latter prop a bad prop, just bad for that engine.

The Y&O props are good props for some engines with the right diameter and pitch. Just don't come in with preconceived notions that you need a certain diameter and pitch and try different combinations. And just because you have something good, doesn't mean you can't come up with something better. Matt is still changing props and pipes on his PA 75 with increasingly better results (and some failures to go with it.)

HI Steve. Two big differences with the APC compared to the BY&O (sounds like a railroad) is the APCs do not fit most spinners and they are heavier. So without removing weight from the front, they upset the balance on a few of my planes. Then again sometimes I need weight and switch to a heavier prop, but then I have other problems. Simply put, no two props are alike. A lesson I have learned the hard way.

You guys left out one important person in the production of Y&O Props. It is in the person of Bill Swagerman of Lees Summit. Missouri. Seems his dad would do the rough cuts and Bill would finish them. Mainly they worked together. I visited Bill many times to pick up props as the local hobby shops would not carry them. Most I think went to the east and west. When he lost his dad he sold the business to an individual. I beleive Clarance bought the business from that individual and had to do a lot of work on the equipment. I think after he left this world Brodak got the rights. Later, --DOC Holliday

>This is an interesting reply, Steve, because props are not
>equal. It is like saying you tried a Bolly and found a
>Zinger worked better. In certain applications, and with a
>certain size prop, you will actually be correct. The APC is
>a very harsh prop with a thick airfoil. The Y&O prop is a
>thin airfoil with a wide blade. You cannot swap a 10-6 of
>one with a 10-6 of another and get equal results. Same with
>a Zinger and a Top Flite or a Rev-Up. Rev-Ups and Y&O props
>are a lot closer, but will still have variances. You may
>find that you like an 11-5 APC and an 11-6 Y&O on the same
>engine. Or you may cut down the diameter of one to match
>the load of the other. We found with our 35 FP conversion
>that we could run a 12-6 Zinger or a 12-6 Rev-Up (better)
>and even a 12.5 x 5.5 Bolly (the best one of the lot). But
>we could not run a 12-6 Wooden Windsor. It didn't make the
>latter prop a bad prop, just bad for that engine.
>
>The Y&O props are good props for some engines with the right
>diameter and pitch. Just don't come in with preconceived
>notions that you need a certain diameter and pitch and try
>different combinations. And just because you have something
>good, doesn't mean you can't come up with something better.
>Matt is still changing props and pipes on his PA 75 with
>increasingly better results (and some failures to go with
>it.) Leonard

Leonard,
I'm sure this is very basic for people who spend a lot of time (and money) boiling and bending carbon props tiny amounts, but probably not for everyone on this board.

Are there observable (or feelable) flight characteristics that typify "a very harsh prop with a thick airfoil" compared with "a
thin airfoil with a wide blade" other than just the total load produced?

What happened when you and Matt tried the 12-6 Wooden Windsor the SSW 35 FP?

Do you know of a good article on this subject that might be available from Pampa Products?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

>Leonard,
>I'm sure this is very basic for people who spend a lot of
>time (and money) boiling and bending carbon props tiny
>amounts, but probably not for everyone on this board.
>
>Are there observable (or feelable) flight characteristics
>that typify "a very harsh prop with a thick airfoil"
>compared with "a
>thin airfoil with a wide blade" other than just the total
>load produced?
>
>What happened when you and Matt tried the 12-6 Wooden
>Windsor the SSW 35 FP?
>
>Do you know of a good article on this subject that might be
>available from Pampa Products?
>
>Thanks,
>Kim Mortimore
>Santa Clara, CA

I am not aware of any articles on the subject pertaining to types of props. Basically you try it to see how the prop responds. We typically measure the prop pitch on the back (flat) side of the blade. But airfoil is also part of the pitch and a thicker airfoil will have a higher effective pitch than a thin airfoil. The thicker airfoil will also produce more drag. Thus a Zinger, with its thicker airfoil, will have a higher effective pitch than a Rev-Up. It will also produce more load on the prop. A wider blade, however, adds more area and again places more load on the engine (while producing more static thrust). The real key is to see what the engine and prop will do in the air. Even if the lap speed is right, if the prop puts too much load on the engine, it is not good. At the same time, if you have to slow the engine down too much or speed it up too much, that, also is not good. Most engines have a "sweet spot" where they run the best. If you can get a prop to give the proper lap times within that sweet spot, then it can be a good prop for you. Try different props in and around the range that you are looking for, and if one proves better than the others, it becomes "Square One". Then try others. Any prop that improves things for you gives you a new "square one."

Everything, however, is a compromise. So sometimes we give in to that compromise by going bigger or smaller or more pitch or less pitch, until we get to what we want. Some people have a range of props that they use for different conditions. We like to develop a prop that will work under most all conditions. So, again, it is a compromise. But remember, there is no one prop that is better than another. But there will be a prop that you feel is better for you with your airplane and the way you like to run it. I may not agree with you, but that is choice.

I lucked into some original Y & Os (not B, Y & Os) in a London, Ontario Swap Meet a few years ago.

You have to love that blade area. I still have a few 10-4s, which I use on OS FP 25s. Currell

Bill Schwagerman's Y&Os were thicker than Clarence's. I liked Bill's better; they looked stronger. Bill used all sorts of fancy wood. The walnut ones really look cool.

About 1972, I was using Rev-Up 8-8s for combat on G.21 Supertigres. They would frequently blow apart, causing the loss of an airplane and maybe an engine each time. Gary James put me onto Y&Os. They were cheaper than Rev-Ups, stayed together, and worked at least as well. They had the added benefit of looking dorky, which caused your opponent to underestimate you.

To teach myself how to mold carbon-epoxy props, I made a mold for a Y&O 8-8. At the 1984 Nats, I was putting in some test flights. The field was a little rough, so I used a carbon Y&O, rather than the good props I was using at the time. Pat Willcox saw the Y&O and laughed at it. I had the good fortune to be matched against him in the contest. I used the Y&O and whupped him. I made two of those carbon Y&Os. I saved the second one for the next time I flew Pat. I whupped him again. I might have to mold some more.

One of the best eBAY buys I ever made was a bunch of the original Y&O props; from EasyTiger, of all people! Still got a large shoebox full of 8's, 9's, and 10's. At the same time, it was one of the stupidest moves I ever made, too. I DIDN'T get all the 11's, 12's, 13', and 14's - - thought they were too dear at $3 - $4 each. Ah well, live and learn . . .

Those by Clarence were indeed pretty....and, as I learned, primarily hand made!

It sounded to me like he would have been better off handing someone that wanted a prop a piece of wood and a $2.00 bill with instructions on how to carve...

See Ya

Peabody

This discussion of the Y&O blade area (paddle blade) reminds me of props that were made in the L.A. area around 1950. Theses were called "Thrustee".

As I remember, they were made by someone named Jack Strehlow. Their failing was that they were too thin at the hub, making them break for no good reason, even while starting.

Floyd in OR

>...They had the
>added benefit of looking dorky, which caused your opponent
>to underestimate you.

A smart bit of psych warfare, especially when you look like James Bond.