The untold story of how the Chinese came to dominate CLPA

Rather than hijack Brett's, I think this deserves its own thread.

Steve Fitton wrote:

>It would be kind of fun, though, to determine just how
>extensive the State sponsoring is, or was. Is it just
>allowing the State to pick up the paycheck of some random
>PLAAF guy to allow him to fly stunt as his job, or was it
>wind tunnel testing, engine research (not likely since they
>use ST or Saito I guess), or something else that has not
>been considered.

Yup. State sponsored or not, it's the details I'd love to hear. We shouldn't flatter ourselves that the amount of money spent on the CL team was huge - this is CL Stunt, not gymnastics or some other Olympic sport. I expect it was simply the national aero club providing a LOT of support to the best of the individual fliers they could recruit. Such as making sure they had all the equipment and fuel and coaching they needed, and as much time off "work" as they could use to train. And state sponsored or not, it would have taken a lot of effort to get to the point that they did. Check out the recent programs on Discovery Channel about Chinese athletes preparing for the 08 Olympics. Sure, they're "state sponsored", but they do work very, very hard. They don't have it made - there's always others waiting to take your place.

> Admittedly, the odds of finding out the inner workings of
>their program are remote, but its a fun mental exercise.

I doubt it'd be all that difficult. Just have a few with the Chinese fliers the next World Champs and ask them. Of course, you'd need someone who speaks Chinese. One of the Chinese world champs (Liu Anlin?) now lives in Canada, from what I've heard, how difficult would it be to hook up with him? The reason we haven't heard anything is that no one's bothered to ask, and the reason no one's bothered to ask is that it's been dismissed as being unworthy of knowing. A defense mechanism perhaps? "Those Chinese can't really be any good, since they need state sponsorship to win the World Champs." or "If we had THAT kind of money, we'd win every time." or "The only reason they win so much is that they've got one heck of a halo."

In essence, there are quite a few pertinent details that would be VERY interesting to a student of the sport. How did they recruit fliers? At what age did they begin flying? What coaching methods did they use? How did they get the state to sponsor the program in the first place?

Most interesting to me would be: How do you create world class fliers in a vacuum? In an event that is based on subjective scoring, at that? They aren't anywhere near Europe - I doubt they got anyone to come over and coach them, or train their judges, likewise I doubt anyone went overseas very much. Video cameras weren't that common in the 1970s/80s, and they weren't cheap (they're cheap now, ironically, because the Chinese make them..). There probably was Stunt flying in China before they started placing at the WC, but how good were they? Did the Cultural Revolution kill it off for a few years, was that why no one placed at the WC (did they even attend before 1980?) in the 70s? How did their "style" become synchronized with the European "style" to the point where they were winning WCs in four short years? There's a great deal to this, and it'd make good reading if someone bothered to write it.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-06 AT 02:59 PM (CST)
 
This could become an excellent thread...if someone doesn't mess it up with xenophobic comments.

Mike Keville
Tucson, AZ, USA

Edit: The fellow's name in Canada is Niu AnLin.

In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine any state sponsored ANYTHING that could stack up to good 'ol American tenacity and spirit.

Many of our top flyers are also our top designers, builders, and sellers. Nobody will be ahead of these guys for very long. (My opinion)

>In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine any state sponsored
>ANYTHING that could stack up to good 'ol American tenacity
>and spirit.
>
>Many of our top flyers are also our top designers, builders,
>and sellers. Nobody will be ahead of these guys for very
>long. (My opinion)

Well, I would argue nobody is really *ahead* of anybody else. You could even make the case of the Chinese "slipping" since they didn't win the last two go arounds. Werwage (USA) '04 and Berrenger (FRA) this time. The Worlds are supposed to be difficult, and attention and prestige might diminish if every Worlds F2B show was a Chinese demonstration run.

Note also Brett's comments regarding the Yatsenko Akrobat, in that Design might be optimised for whatever part of the world you typically compete in, and your own world-class design might be unsuited for wherever the F2B Worlds happen to be that year. In that case "Best" is relative.

>This could become an excellent thread...if someone doesn't
>mess it up with xenophobic comments.
>
>Mike Keville
>Tucson, AZ, USA
>
>Edit: The fellow's name in Canada is Niu AnLin.

I don't see much sense in bashing the individual Chinese who comprise the team, I figure they are just average Joes. I might not like Communists, but I wouldn't hold it against their CLPA pilots...

Didn't Bob Baron make some sort of visit to China back in the mid 1980s that was in some way instrumental toward their program?

Its fun to speculate about exotic and cool things like wind tunnel research, but isky is probably correct in that the guys probably just get some State approved time off from work to go and practice. If they came up with even a half-decent rig to fly, got some guys who could coach and judge, and alot of practice time, they could accomplish alot. Maybe they get some engines or fuel supplied as well. It wouldn't take too much.

>This could become an excellent thread...if someone doesn't
>mess it up with xenophobic comments.
>
>Mike Keville
>Tucson, AZ, USA
>
>Edit: The fellow's name in Canada is Niu AnLin.

Actually, his name is Xiangdong Zhang. He was the 1988 World Champion. I believe he goes by the name Arden Zhang now - he builds and flies R/C helicopters now in Canada.

Unless I remember wrong, I think he defected from China during the 1990 World Championships. That by itself would make a pretty interesting story.

>Arden Zhang ...
==================
Yep, that's true. He was the first. (The only?) When I saw AnLin's name I thought maybe he's now there also. Just wanted to correct the spelling of his name.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-06 AT 03:06 PM (CST)
 
You have made some very interesting points.

At one time in my life (about 30 years ago!) I was quite wealthy, so had enough money to buy some fairly exotic motors (which I've had to sell recently) I had also sold my business and so had a lot of spare time.

I have always enjoyed flying - so I COULD have practiced many hours a day. MAYBE I'd have turned out a decent flyer - maybe not? But instead I did other things.

Now, I am sure that in the US there are probably quite a few people in their mid-thirties who are in much the same situation as I was then. Enough money, and enough time. And the natural ability. So I don't think that the "State" (China style) can provide much more than that. Also of course there is the free flow of information between flyers in the West.

Just my 2c - nothing more

I met Xiangdong Zhang, the 1988 World Champion in Toronto when he was still flying stunt.

In my opinion, he's just a very talented, hard-working builder and flyer, like Bill Werwage, and a lot of other winners. No need to look for a national conspiracy.

The story is that he moved to Canada as the result of legitimate paperwork, greased through by the Canadian Team Manager. He was not smuggled out in a model box.

------------------
The United States has only one F2b contest every two years, the team trials. Based on that, the US is lucky to ever win.

>The story is that he moved to Canada as the result of
>legitimate paperwork, greased through by the Canadian Team
>Manager. He was not smuggled out in a model box.
>
I don't think China (unlike some other Communist countries) worries about thier citizens travelling or even moving to other countries. My wife is Chinese and a lot of the people in her college class (1986) ended up immigrating to other countries, including the US. The biggest problem we had getting her here was jumping through INS hoops, no trouble at all on the Chinese end. Same thing when we brought her (our) son over.

cheers,
Ken

To whom it may concern,

I invite you to come and participate at the next US F2B event, the team trials in 2007 and see just how esy it is to win that contest..

Dave Fitzgerald

David Fitzgerald

UMMMMMM... I just have to do it!

I thought it was "PLACTICE... PLACTICE...PLACTICE!

I had to look up xenophobic... thought it was dislike for a certain warrior princess!

Ho Ho

Reminds me of a joke about a Chinese TV factory - FAR too vulgar to repeat here!

So Plactice, Plactice it is

>I had to look up xenophobic... thought it was dislike for a
>certain warrior princess!
============================================================

Got to admit: THAT'S funny.

>Rather than hijack Brett's, I think this deserves its own
>thread.

Thank God for that. I know it's not intended, but I can scarcely imagine a topic that would be a bigger flamefest.

I desperately hope that everyone exercizes self-control...

> I desperately hope that everyone exercizes self-control...
>
> Brett
===========================================================

Amen, brother!

Paul Walker once told me that the biggest difference between my flying and his was about 10,000 practice flights. And I think that's the point. It isn't superior equipment, philosophy or even flying "style". It's how well do you know your equipment and it's capabilities and how much stick time do you have.

If I could fly every day, rain or shine, 6 or 8 or 10 flights with a coach, I could probably be competitive at that level too.

Of course, the truth is, that I could be more competitive at any level if I practiced more.

If their system resembles the one in existence in the old USSR, then no, no access to wind tunnels or extensive state-sponsored engine research.
Factors that help include:
1) Modeling careers start early. As in 10 yr old school boys. No 30-somethings looking for a hobby, and no 60-yr old retreads. Any skill learned at that age gets honed and solidified, especally hand-eye coordination and motor skills, much better than any skill learned after age 20.
2) Very large pool to draw talent from. China is the most populous country in the world. Not spoiled by X-boxes, large numbers of those 10-yr olds are looking for something else to do after school, and airplane clubs have no trouble getting young members.
3) Selection system. From the 100 kids that join at the beginning of the school year, 10 may remain by the end of the year. 2 of those might persist long enough to progress from rubber-powered stick-and-tissue models to competing with control line planes at the city or even regional contests. Only the winners of those (the best of the best) are allowed to fly at the Nationals. The National team is then the Best of the Best of the Best.
4) Scarce resources, believe it or not. If your club only allocates you 6 sheets of medium-density balsa to build your next winning stunter, shoddy construction or multiple attempts at cutting out a good set of ribs are not an option. If you are given (a Chinese version of) a Fox35, the options are: learn it, use it, and win with it; if you can't make it work - make your own; can't succeed with what you have or make your own - you're out of the game, and the person next to you takes your spot.

All of the above results in a National team where every member has succeeded DESPITE the system, not THANKS to it.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-06 AT 05:04 PM (CST)
 
Mike Alimov knows what he's talking about. "Been there, done that." Thanks, Mike.

Many years ago, long before their teams gained prominence, I saw a film clip of young folks in China just learning to fly CL. You may remember that one. They were using a plain old profile (Twister, perhaps?) and learning to fly Inverted...at least 10 feet above the ground. The word was that, given enough time, they might someday take their place on the podium.

Mike Keville
Tucson, AZ, USA

(Edited: spelling error.)

Excellent post Mike!

I remember hearing you recall the Soviet model scene at a contest one time. I bet you could write a book about all that stuff!!! very cool stories, and very good information. It must be a shocker for somebody who came up in that system, for them to come to the West and see whats available!

>Excellent post Mike! I remember hearing you recall the Soviet model scene at a contest one time. I bet you could write a book about all that stuff!!!
================================================================

Perhaps not a book, but why not a detailed treatise (two-part, if necessary) for Stunt News?

>If their system resembles the one in existence in the old
>USSR, then no, no access to wind tunnels or extensive
>state-sponsored engine research.
>Factors that help include:
>1) Modeling careers start early. As in 10 yr old school
>boys. No 30-somethings looking for a hobby, and no 60-yr old
>retreads. Any skill learned at that age gets honed and
>solidified, especally hand-eye coordination and motor
>skills, much better than any skill learned after age 20.
>2) Very large pool to draw talent from. China is the most
>populous country in the world. Not spoiled by X-boxes, large
>numbers of those 10-yr olds are looking for something else
>to do after school, and airplane clubs have no trouble
>getting young members.
>3) Selection system. From the 100 kids that join at the
>beginning of the school year, 10 may remain by the end of
>the year. 2 of those might persist long enough to progress
>from rubber-powered stick-and-tissue models to competing
>with control line planes at the city or even regional
>contests. Only the winners of those (the best of the best)
>are allowed to fly at the Nationals. The National team is
>then the Best of the Best of the Best.
>4) Scarce resources, believe it or not. If your club only
>allocates you 6 sheets of medium-density balsa to build your
>next winning stunter, shoddy construction or multiple
>attempts at cutting out a good set of ribs are not an
>option. If you are given (a Chinese version of) a Fox35, the
>options are: learn it, use it, and win with it; if you can't
>make it work - make your own; can't succeed with what you
>have or make your own - you're out of the game, and the
>person next to you takes your spot.
>
>All of the above results in a National team where every
>member has succeeded DESPITE the system, not THANKS to it.

Mike,
Very informative post, thanks!
Hey did you see our photo in Oct. Flying Models? page 62

See you next year.

As the person that picked up Arden Zhang at the Vancouver airport in 1991 and had him spend time at my home I guess I'm qualified to shead some light on the subject. I first met Arden in Hungary at the WC in Pecs and then again met up with him in Kiev in 1988. We had written back and forth a few times in between. After the WC in 1990 I got some interesting mail from him saying that he wanted to come to Canada for a visit. Knowing what Communist China was like at the time I figured that this was some sort of pipe dream and just kept writing back and fourth but the writing became lots more frequent. I remember getting a letter saying that the govenrnment was going to let him get a passport due to his high status as World Champion. The next thing I knew I got a FAX saying that he was going to be on a certain Air China flight into Vancouver and could I meet him.
Arden was schooled as an engineer and due to his modeling abilities was chosen to teach aeromodelling to youth in China. This I believe is typical of most of the Chinese team members. Their full time job to to teach aeromodelling and to act as ambassators for the government. They get anything they need and have access to any equipment required to compete once they attain a certain status.
Anyone who has been to the WC and seen the contingent from China knows that it is indeed a government sponsered team.
As Arden now lives in Toronto I think that Kim Doherty should chime in as after all these years, he has spent a lot more time than I have with Arden and can probably fill in a lot more details.
Alan Resinger

I think the gist of this thread is that if you give someone all the resources he/she needs to accomplish something, he/she will NOT succeed until willing to put in the time and effort to do it. And having many other participants around with which to compare notes really helps.

I think the latter is what is sorely lacking in the F2A and F2C events in the USA and has contributed to us falling from the top of the pile.

>If their system resembles the one in existence in the old
>USSR, then no, no access to wind tunnels or extensive
>state-sponsored engine research.

Yep, been there done that. Melted and cast my own crankcases, cut my own spinners...

The adult who taught us kept all the balsa allocated to us kids for winning contests. He used it to build his Yak-14 scale model only to get drunk, crash it and burn it.

Most of the world thinks that the US team is state sponsored for much the same reasons.

>Most of the world thinks that the US team is state sponsored
>for much the same reasons.
============================================================

You might want to mention that to Billy, David, Bob and the others who participate in F2B endeavors. I'm sure they'd find it highly amusing.

Well, perhaps "amusing" isn't the correct word.

>Most of the world thinks that the US team is state sponsored
>for much the same reasons.

Which reasons?

It's safe to say that if anything, modeling is "state discouraged" in the US. IOW, if the government does anything, it makes it harder, not easier. Certainly, absolutely *no* assistance is provided.

I'm Sorry, and I don't wish to be inflamatory, but it seems to me that all the posters so far are making far too light of the fact that these "people" ("the Chinese Team") are essentially supported (sponsored)and don't have to do anything except develop their airplanes (regardless of available resources), and practice, practice, practice; and get paid to do it (at least that's my understanding). Whether they get "super" technical help to develop "super" engines is beside the point (and as far as I know there is no evidence to support that they do).

I do agree completely with the previous post by Mike Alimov that their competition system and population are BIG factors in their success, I just think that the major factor is that they are encouraged to do their best by the competition for the "JOB".
How many people here feel they could have done much better if they had been supported financially while in their 20's-30's-40's and didn't have the pressure of earning a living and supporting a family in any way except flying model airplanes.

Perhaps there are a few people in other countries like the USA that are independently wealthy and could fly all the time if they wished, but I maintain that's not the same motivation as doing it professionally.

Having been a "Professional" motorcycle racer for many years and competing to make a "living", I can tell you that it is a very different motivation than being an amateur and competing for trophies. If eating and feeding your kids depends on winning you try harder.

Actually I really don't know if the Chinese are supported that much but I agree that it would be interesting to know what their level of support was (yes, I know that was the original premise of this thread but I think that it might be more difficult than postulated to actually find out the "truth" of that situation).

During the 1960's the Russians fielded interantional Moto-Cross teams that were totally supported (their members were all in the Army, Hmmmm) and they were very secretive about their level of support and training, but there were many "horror stories" circulated about threats against families etc. for not winning. True? Who knows. Or could you even believe the answer if you got it.

I'm not suggesting that the Chinese team is treated this way, only mentioning what kind of motivations might be used in a "closed society" like communism.

I do agree also with the premise above that good ole' American Know How and competitive sprit, fostered by freedom, is difficult to beat even by the best paid professionals. If you doubt this look at the results of the Olympics during the "dark times" when we were fielding only amateurs and the closed society countries were fielding their best professionals. Yeah, they often beat us but we actually held our own pretty well. Remember the "miracle" of the American hockey team.

People like Paul Walker, Bill Werwage, David Fitzgerald, Ted Fancher, and Bob Hunt and a host of others have made a really good showing against the "professionals" of some other countries while earning a living at other pursuits.

OK, I've probably managed to make somebody hate me, and that certainly is not my intention but these are my opinions, for better or worse.

I don't have anything solid to go by as to what sort of support the Chinese get from their Commie Bosses, but I would bet it is not the sort of life any of us would enjoy. Or envy.

It's all too easy to toss around phrases such as, "They get paid to fly!" "We're competing against professionals!" and so on, but in my experiences in the now-gone--good riddance, in my view--Soviet Union, these are unkind cuts.

I wrote about the Soviet system years ago and the article was published in Model Aviation. I assume it is in the archives, although I have never looked for it. Maybe 1990 or 1992 was when the article was published...

From what I saw, it was a tough gig, making it to the top. And politicized like you cannot believe! The politics in Formula 1 (the highest form of four-wheeled motorsport) is nothing short of namby-pamby by comparison.

I suppose the highest-ranking Soviet modeler I got to know well was Slava Beliaev. I was at his flat for dinner and drinks; went to his workplace; met his coach; worked with him on some projects, some of which I might even be persuaded to talk about, but don't count on it...

At the time, possibly even today, Slava's work could be compared approximately to a junior high shop teacher. The focus in his classes were CL models, especially F2D models, the students had the basics--much, much more "basic" than our definition of the word!--for building and flying models.

But his existence was hardly the equvalent of a "professional," again by our standards.

Here is what it comes down to: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I am sometimes stunned to think that Americans might see things in that light, but it happens.

Don't never, ever envy life in a communist (socialist) society. Just don't do it. This is not a debate...!!

And I was an integral part of a group who in 1989 showed the blessings of life in the US to nine or so fresh-off-the-plane Soviets, here to attend the US Nationals in the eastern part of Washington state.

We blew their minds. No, I am serious! I wrote about it in Stunt News not so long ago. Ditching the KGB spook at a bar (one of those places which has both kinds of music: Country *and* Western) was just one of the highlights I wrote about.

They went back home still wide-eyed. One lasting memory was that every home-based shop they visited had compressed air on tap. Even their schools, at least those I visited, did not have such a luxury.

Dan,
I hope you didn't interpret anything in my posting to mean that I envied anything in a comunist society. I certainly didn't intend to give that impression.
To the contrary, I think that is the worst possible kind of life to be forced to live.
My only point was that being provided with a living (or forced by circumstances or threats) to compete in anything will by necessity make for professional type results.
I believe that to be the primary reason that the Chinese seemed to "Dominate" CLPA (words in the original posting not mine, because I would highly question that they have actually dominated anything).

>How many people here feel they could have done much better
>if they had been supported financially while in their
>20's-30's-40's and didn't have the pressure of earning a
>living and supporting a family in any way except flying
>model airplanes.

While nothing to do with competition, you have just touched on the reason why many people leave the hobby between university/college age and their early 40s. I suspect the vast majority of people returning or starting C/L and eventually reaching the upper levels of competition will be 40+, possibly even retired.

In my case, I have spent the last 20 years getting an education, building a career with many moves and changes of job, then getting married, raising a kid, etc. There was precious little time for ANY hobby in all of that, let alone being able to find the time to build, develop, practice and travel to compete.

It is only now that I am settled in a high enough paying job that I can begin the slow process of recovering long lost skills. Maybe by the time I'm 45 or 50 I will actually be in a position to compete like I have wanted to do since I was about 13.

The upside is that in the intervening 20 years I have learned a lot of patience.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-06 AT 08:00 PM (CST)
 
It wasn't CL but F1D (indoor models... those with a 2 feet wingspan and weight of 1g = 1 gramm) and it wasn't China but Romania and Hungary. The system was the same.

The state is/was financig a huge system (in Romania it was named Pionieer House) where every kid in the country could attend "any kind" of activity they wanted - FOR FREE.
A few of the activities I remember taking place in the "Pionieer House" I've attended were: Model Airplanes, GoKart, Photo, Dancing, Electronics, Making Puppets etc.

It is true that we didn't have all the fine materials we needed, and we had to be very "inventive' at times but as somebody said, this system did create a huge base for selection, from where only a few made it to the "higher stages"
But the few how made it were not the lucky ones or the ones with lots of money but the ones who were willing to seriously "invest" in their hobby. By "investing" I don't mean money (we didn't have that ) but I mean: time, work, time, time, work, work....

The people who made it to the "higher stages" did get lots of further state sponsorhip.
When I went to study at the university I've got a place at a special "Sports" dorm where there were only 3 students living in a room. In the other dorms for the "generic student" in the same kind of room there were living 5 to 6 people. Also some other privileges, like free lunch tickets etc.
I know that for competitions other people did get paid time off from their jobs, etc.

Ultimately I did become Junior Champion of Eastern Europe but... I in order to fly my models I was picking up the broken rubber engines thrown away by the senior guys and the guys from the west who were attending the contest...

Oh.. one more thing: During the 80s lots of F1D WCs have been won by Romanian/Hungarian guys.
Have a good night.
Peter

It's a weird world out there.

True story: Spring of 1966, just off Hwy. 19 near An Khe, Vietnam: passed a little kid holding a clear-doped Ringmaster in one hand and a jug of fuel in the other. Did a double-take but never saw him again.

I've often wondered what became of that kid.

Ahhh! Mikey...what a picture you just painted for me...that would of really "blown my socks off." I would of HAD to of gone back...what a story that would of been.
Norm

Mike, you probably really would'nt want to know! But I wonder what CL stuff might be going on there now???

Maybe I can help out a little with some observations. Myself and Bob Baron did in fact go to China in 1985 or '86, hard to remember that far back. There were six teams invited to attend what the Chinese called their World Friendship Competition. Each team had two guys on it. We had stunt, speed, team race, Nordic glider, FAI freeflite and towline teams. We started in Bejing and each team had a competition set up in different provinces. We travelled from Bejing to Shanghai in about 13 days. It was just us against the Chinese and I must say they were very good at all the contests. After six contests we never won any of them. The only one we could have won was team race but lost account of a mistake on the last pit stop and caught a prop tip. Up to then we had them going away but lost too much speed the last 15 laps. Oh well.

Anyway, as for the stunt team we flew in Shangai at their caged flying site which I believe is the same place the WCs' were held. The Chinese had a bunch of questions about what was needed to compete in the World Champs and Bob and I answered as best we could. We flew on Thursday and Friday and since we were under the impression they wanted FAI type flying that's what we did on Thursday for the first two rounds. The Chinese flew big and open although very accurate and outscored both of us. Obviously we needed to change our style so on Friday we opened everything up just like a Sunday flite in the states and outscored the Chinese but not enough to make up for the previous flights on Thursday.

As for state sponsorship that is a true statement. They begin very young, like second or third grade and the students that showed promise in the engineering and or aviation disciplines are selected to be modellers. The ones that make it to the top graduate with an engineering degree or equivalant. We toured their school and workshops and it was quite impressive. The Chinese cast and turn their own engines, they had all the necessary equipment to do this. They all build the planes and the best ones go to the best fliers. We watched them making laminated props using sort of an assembly line operation. Had six students starting and each had a specific job. Cutting strip, then laminating these, next was cutting the blanks, rough shape, final sanding and then finishing. Very impressive to say the least. When a model is finished it is state owned, the students are not allowed to own any thing.

I like to think that we had a little input as to their expertise later on down the road. They can copy things really well and did use a lot of the ideas from our models in theirs.

That is the basic story, my opinion, as to how they got to where they are now. And they do practice, a lot! Bob Whitely

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-06 AT 10:32 AM (CST)
 
Mikey,
When I first arrived "In Country" in January 1968, I was amazed to find a fully equiped hobby shop, with all the necessary goodies to build and fly CL at Long Binh Post.
I didn't stay there long enough to take advantage of it. Being SF I was whisked "Up-country" quickly and never saw the hobby shop again.
However it well could have been the source of the Ringmaster you mentioned.
I was told there was a CL circle laid out and used at Long Binh also, but never got a chance to actually see it.
War can indeed be a wierd experience.

Have just taken the time to read all the posts on this topic. As everyone should realize by now that even if you have unlimited funds, the best of engines and the perfectly built airplanes. It will not matter if you don't practice. --DOC Holliday

>Have just taken the time to read all the posts on this
>topic. As everyone should realize by now that even if you
>have unlimited funds, the best of engines and the perfectly
>built airplanes. It will not matter if you don't practice.
>--DOC Holliday

Hi Doc,

While you certainly won't find me advising stunt flyers not to practice I need to reiterate that practice in and of itself will not bring golden plastic hardware to your den.

Practice is of value only when other priorities have been dealt with first.

The more important priorities are a proper and repeating engine run and an airplane in proper trim.

When those priorities are fulfilled practice can be of value. If they are not, practice can only bring you to a point less than your best potential and, in the worst case, subject your equipment to possible destruction.

I'm a pretty good flyer but have flown many airplanes (some of them my own prior to getting the properly trimmed) that would not have been competitive even if you flew a thousand flights a day with them. A good case in point was the Cardinal that young Paul Ferrel eventually won senior with at this years nats.

Paul had put in many practice flights and the results were much less than satisfying from a high level competitive point of view. Talking him through multiple practice flights brought only tiny bits of improvement which weren't necessarily repeatable.

When I finally flew the airplane I was unwilling to even attempt some maneuvers because the state of trim of the airplane was such that doing so would have, in my opinion, placed someone else's airplane in jeopardy.

Significant retrimming and engine fine tuning brought the airplane into a condition where rapid improvement with a modest number of additional practice flights was obtained.

I just can't stress strongly enough the need to take care of those two big priorities -- engine run and airplane trim -- before significant time and effort is put into merely practicing the pattern.

Ted

p.s. Of course, once those priorities are resolved, practice will go a long ways towards increasing the trophy count.

It is still worth noting that Brett Buck, whose airplanes are the best trimmed and powered of pretty much anybody I know, won the nats flying a brand new airplane with literally less than two dozen flights on it by the end of the meet. Brett's total flights in the previous year were probably well under 100. Each of them was, however, beneficial because they were flown with airplanes that went exactly where you pointed them exactly the same way every time.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-06 AT 07:10 PM (CST)
 
>It is still worth noting that Brett Buck, whose airplanes
>are the best trimmed and powered of pretty much anybody I
>know, won the nats flying a brand new airplane with
>literally less than two dozen flights on it by the end of
>the meet. Brett's total flights in the previous year were
>probably well under 100. Each of them was, however,
>beneficial because they were flown with airplanes that went
>exactly where you pointed them exactly the same way every
>time.

Well, until that fateful morning when it went nose in into the ground over by the T/R circle.

It was well under 50 - I would guesstimate that from jan 2005 to May 2006 I maybe did 35 flights. From May 2006 to present, I think it's 35, if I counted correctly. My second Walker flyoff flight was flight number 22 on that airplane and number 25 total for the year.

Getting the equipment right is a VITALLY important factor. Way too many people work on the airplane just to the point it will get through the pattern in most conditions, then stop, and then try to burn 20 gallons of fuel getting used to it. I am amazed how well some of them do, but, not many end up winning.

The point being, simply practicing for the sake of practicing is something I find very inefficient, and in some cases, counterproductive.

I will however admit to about 5000 or flights for 1978-1983, most of which preceded my first contest.

I have spoken to the chines team breifly at the USA w/c in 04. I also spent a bit of time talking with a guest japanese flier at the last Nats, and had some interesting insights into the training.

Quote :
As for state sponsorship that is a true statement. They begin very young, like second or third grade and the students that showed promise in the engineering and or aviation disciplines are selected to be modellers. The ones that make it to the top graduate with an engineering degree or equivalant. We toured their school and workshops and it was quite impressive. The Chinese cast and turn their own engines, they had all the necessary equipment to do this. They all build the planes and the best ones go to the best fliers. We watched them making laminated props using sort of an assembly line operation. Had six students starting and each had a specific job. Cutting strip, then laminating these, next was cutting the blanks, rough shape, final sanding and then finishing. Very impressive to say the least. When a model is finished it is state owned, the students are not allowed to own any thing.

All this is 100% on the money. Its a little more in depth with how they select student, but suffice to say, this is the way its done.

I guess the difference comes down to .. practice. and dedication.
As ive stated before, when Ive bene gearing up for a contest weeks prior I will ( if time from work allows... ) I will put in 35 flights per day. ( yes ive counted many times.. ) this is about the upper limit for an 8 hr day.

Lets look at those numbers.. from a professional perpective.

35 flights per day : 312 days per yer ( 6 days per week which is what the chinese team do )

Thats 10,920 flights per year.
for bretts 5 yr stint ( and they have dominated there is no question: thats 54,600 flights for 5 yrs.

hard to legitimatly compete, when your against that. Yes guys like PW and ted and david have beeb able to compete, but they have 30 + yrs experience of flights under their belt, when someone like Han zin ping is dare is a little newer to the hobby.
94, 96, 98, 2000, 2002 all won by Han xing ping. noone has won more.. or won more consectutives. Bill Werwage has won 3 spanning 3 decades.

Im just saying.. practice wins out all the time.. I understand and totally agree with both brett and ted.. practice on junk isnt a worthwile exercise, but As we all know when you fly alot... you wnat to tweak and get it right. The ( chinese team ) work and help eachother out.

Something of a side note.. there is alot of talk about the chinese team.. but something you may not realise.. is the japanese team is just as dedicated.

Ive met and spent time with Kaz Minato, Masaru Hiki, Matsuri yokiyama
with KAZ and Masaru Hiki, coming to australia 2 yrs ago for our Nationals. I spent 2 days with them doing "practice" I say that becasue im very fit, and under 30 yrs old. I love to practice especially when Its my Own Nats. Anyway, they were down before i was every day. ( down at the field at 6:30 am and they were there already) They were very keen to help me with my flying, and look at the smallest error. I was astounded by the level of flights they wanted to put in. When one person would land the other was fueled up ready to go.. and one person pulls the model out.. the flier would take the handle, take the handel of the model to be flown and walk to the engine.. start and fly. Less than 2 minutes down time. after the flight you would talk to the flier about when mistakes were made, drawing on a critque sheet, what do do. ( The transaltions were easy as they all speak very good english ) IT was just flight after flight.. banging it out. I kept count and did 48 flights on one pf those practice days. With each flight, you are working on what they told you last time. It was a situation where it was done for all pilots. I impoved 189 points from my 1st flight score, to my final flight score. Also bear in mind, i was well practiced before i went !

My point is, they were very keen to practice.. and practice hard. Kaz was always offering advice on tweaking engines " here try this.. " he would say, and sometimes it was good, sometimes bad.

I was getting tired with the flights, so Id hate to knwo how they were feeling.. but they won our Nats. Hiki 1st Minato 2nd.

Lets not just focus on the Chinese as good as they are. The japanese are jsut as dedicated.

Mind you, I also was on the same field as PW at the US nats.. and he practices as much as they did. I mean.. we all know the famous 40 gallon fuel drum he has ! ( the blue one ! )

People always look at me funny when I bring a new plane out, put up one flight and go home to do something to it that can't done in the field. Seems to happen a lot until I get it close, then it seems I'm adjusting the trim every flight until I'm happy with it and will still change things if needed (of course). The high point is when Brett sees it and tells me "how can you fly that thing when it's that far out of trim."

The most crushing thing I've ever heard was "You don't seriously expect that thing to fly?".

The model in question was a .049 autogyro built from an Aeromodeller plan I found in the school library. It flew. A few times, then I stalled the rotor by getting the nose too low and it converted itself to a pile of matchsticks.

>The high point is when Brett sees it and
>tells me "how can you fly that thing when it's that far out
>of trim."

I DID NOT say that. Not out loud, at least.

Brett,

>
> Getting the equipment right is a VITALLY important
>factor. Way too many people work on the airplane just to the
> point it will get through the pattern in most conditions,
>then stop, and then try to burn 20 gallons of fuel getting
>used to it. I am amazed how well some of them do, but, not
>many end up winning.
>
Brett

I think this is one of the most important posts in this thread, or any thread for the competition flyer.

I have been one of those people described above, and I must say that the seeking out of a person that knows more about trim than you, and following what they say until your model REALLY flies well, can be the most exciting revelation of your stunt flying days. The learning and results of taking the suggestions and lessons of a person that understands trimming is priceless.

Chris...

The learning and results of taking the suggestions and lessons of a person that understands trimming is priceless.

As priceless as understanding it for yourself?

I always suggest to people, tinker with it yourself, once you work out what moving a - b does... you will be a better flier for it.
If you dont have the ability in the 1st place to see a difference you wont benifit.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 09:53 AM (CST)
 
Which is why the Chinese story is an interesting one. HOW did they learn all this? Yes, the Japanese are as dedicated to the sport as the Chinese are, but they're no mystery. There's been constant contact and exchange between the Japanese and the outside world since the 1950s, when Stunt began. They've had fliers and teams attending the World Championships. One of their top fliers even lived in the US for several years (and has several Nats 2nd places to show for it). It's even said that they "fly American".

The Chinese were isolated. How did all this develop in a vacuum? Really curious about that. How did they learn to trim airplanes properly? To judge correctly? The complete story has yet to be told. When their Combat fliers showed up at the Chicopee Nats, for instance, they had equipment like no one else used - small, tissue covered wings, etc. Which means they weren't up on what everyone else was flying. I've heard they were doing some unorthodox stuff in the circle, too (sawing.. ).

The same was probably true for Stunt. I doubt they'd seen much more than pictures in magazines.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 06:43 PM (CST)
 
>The learning and results of taking the suggestions and
>lessons of a person that understands trimming is priceless.
>
>As priceless as understanding it for yourself?

As I typed the words "learning" and "lesson", I thought I was pretty clear that it would not denote a passive exercise. I still think that I am very clear.

>
>I always suggest to people, tinker with it yourself, once
>you work out what moving a - b does... you will be a better
>flier for it.

Yes, that will get one so far. But there is usually a time, and time is of the essence for many of us, that taking the opinions and observations of others known to have superior knowledge is a school of progression that moves much faster and allows the flyer a better understanding.

>If you dont have the ability in the 1st place to see a
>difference you wont benifit.

Yes, and many of us can't see a problem even after many flights. So an interested and knowledgeable observer is an important ingredient to success.

Good luck going it alone.

Chris...

Let me tell ya', if I knew everything like PJ does I'd never build another plane. What would be the point?

PJ, how come is it that you came to know so much but I never seem to see your name in the winners circle? Of course, it could just be possible that you are so much ahead of the rest of us that you are at your own level of expertise.

I would think someone at your level could win anywhere...Where did you place at our Nat's a couple of years ago? RJ

Im almost half tempted to bite at that.. but I wont lower myself to that level.

For the record I placed 38th.. or somewhere around there. But if your that interested, why dont you go search for my results?

I have no need to justify my results to you. I guess if your good enough to make a world champs team, win state championships, place at Nationals, fly in a US nationals be part of a winning trans international championship, fly a 4 engined bomber at a nats... you learn a thing or two..

but what would I know?

Also I will be back for the US nats in the next two years or so, ( funny enough ive been invited back. )

Its a little sad you feel you need to attack me personally, I didnt claim to KNOW IT ALL.. I did however claim to know about trimming, and flown with the japanese fliers in practice. No need to be jealous and catty.

I tell you the reason some of the "noteable names" Dont post on here is becasue of people like you.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 09:06 PM (CST)
 
I will answer the questions :

>Let me tell ya', if I knew everything like PJ does I'd
>never build another plane. What would be the point?

The point is you would be better than you are now !

REST retracted by user.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 08:04 PM (CST)
 
Ok results..

I went to look it up..
US NATS :

I placed 38th with a top score of :

502

Richard Oliver 6th place : 501
Yuri Yatsenko 7th place : 504
Bob Whitley 19th place : 498
Randy Smith 33rd place : 491

Are you goign to say these people , cant fly?

I was in that sort of company.. Im sure you admit these guys " Not to be in the winners circle also ? "

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 08:25 PM (CST)
 
>Ok results..
>
>I went to look it up..
>US NATS :
>
>I placed 38th with a top score of :
>
>502
>
>Richard Oliver 6th place : 501
>Yuri Yatsenko 7th place : 504
>Bob Whitley 19th place : 498
>Randy Smith 33rd place : 491
>
>Are you goign to say these people , cant fly?
>
>I was in that sort of company.. Im sure you admit these guys
>" Not to be in the winners circle also ? "

O.K. PJ, now both of you guys behave yourselves. Sheesh, this is like herding cats!

Let me offer to introduce the two of you to each other the next time we're all in one place. KNowing both of you and liking both of you I expect that you'll actually find out you really, really like each other.

RJ, this guy is O.K. by me. P.J., R.J. has been one of my best buddies for most of my adult life. Aside from the fact that he was an air traffic controller and tried to tell me how to fly my 747 on a regular basis we really sort of liked each other -- both back then and now.

I'd really rather introduce you guys than referee.

>Let me tell ya', if I knew everything like PJ does I'd
>never build another plane. What would be the point?
>
>PJ, how come is it that you came to know so much but I never
>seem to see your name in the winners circle? Of course, it
>could just be possible that you are so much ahead of the
>rest of us that you are at your own level of expertise.
>
>I would think someone at your level could win
>anywhere...Where did you place at our Nat's a couple of
>years ago? RJ

Hey, buddy, lighten up just a touch. PJ's a cool guy who just happens to have strong opinions on things. I get a kick out of guys who don't just take the word of hot shots as gospel. His input on this thread has served a good counterpoint to the points of view of Brett and some others, including myself. Without those inputs Brett probably wouldn't have taken the time to make the posts he did fleshing out his point of view.

There has always been a strong contingent of flyers who live by the gallons of fuel approach to stunt stardom. Some of them have done darn well including Jimmy Casale -- whose airplanes always had others who flew them shaking their head -- but still managed to win several Nats against some pretty stiff competition -- like PW himself whose airplanes are probably as well trimmed as any in the world.

Before anybody thinks I'm backing off on my preference for optimum trim, reliable power and productive practice, I hasten to point out that Jimmy also was famous for wrecking something like thirteen full bore stunters in something like two years as he was moving up the ladder. He also required gallons of fuel to stay sharp.

I would opine that his success was a combination of extraordinary flying skills and a determination to stay intimate with whatever it was he was flying at any given time. Thus, the gallons of fuel.

One of my favorite stories about Jimmy supposedly happened at a World Championship where the US team was having a hard time getting all the practice they wanted. When they finally did find a place to fly they all flew for a bit until the rest of the team was happy with their equipment.

Supposedly, as the others were starting to pack up to go home, Jimmy looked at their fuel cans and asked "are you guys going to use that?" He wanted to burn his and theirs too if he could get them to part with it. He not only loved to fly a lot, he needed to to keep in touch with the airplane.

The difference between Jimmy's approach and Brett's is that Brett's ship is so user friendly that he (or any accomplished flyer ... ask Keith Trostle -- or me, for that matter) can pick it up and with just a couple of flights be within a fraction of as good as they are going to get. An out of trim airplane can be forced into competitiveness as long as a very very good flyer is intimate with its idiosyncrasies.

If you love to fly dozens of flights a day and your airplane is "close" to OK, you can get along pretty well at the contests. If you're as good as Jimmy you can even win as long as you don't wreck the airplane getting used to it. On the other hand, if you've got other interests and still want to be competitive at the next contest, do as Chris did and do whatever is necessary to get the airplane trimmed out to an A+ and the engine run the same every time.

PJ and I will have to agree to disagree on this one but I respect his point of view regardless. I much prefer a give and take to a parade of synchophants.

I think it is just a bit of misunderstanding.

I simply think that going to you or RJ (Bob Whitely), or Brett is a little bit of a trimming lesson I can't get anywhere else. I learn the stuff fast and to the point when I get it from you guys, especially after screwing around for a couple of gallons just to finally see that the top of the wing is showing one way and the bottom is showing the other. Simple, but sometimes it's just faster than going it alone to have someone there to help out.

PJ says he can do it himself, good show, Bud. But I see that his other side says that he flew with the Japanese team all day taking hints and suggestions from them. So, I got the impression he has a bias against me, or Brett, or maybe, dare I say, US guys?

If so, he is a funny guy 'cause Whitely has been to a bunch of AUS Nats, and is really good buds with Eather and Reeves. Perhaps PJ just got up on the wrong side of the bed. He seems to be talking the opposite of his post on teaming with Kaz and company a few posts back when relating to me.

Thanks for the help RJ, I'll be out to fly with you for a few days just like PJ does with Kaz, real soon.

I think he kind of goes back on himself, Ted. By the way, you didn't mean that when I come to you for help that I am a sycophant, did you!? I don't like pink airplanes, so I'm sure I am not!

Chris...

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 09:08 PM (CST)
 
Ok, Im not going to say I was wrong, becasue I dont post anything I dont stand 100% behind.

I will admit to the following however .
I didnt realise RJ, was the guys handle. I thought it was a typo, making fun of MY name! ted cleared that up. So for that I apologise.

I didnt realise that RJ : Is Bob Whitley! * DOH *

Sorry Bob, ive met you damnit! ( more than once! ) What are you going on about! In fact Ive always respected you. As I told you that when I was over in the US, you were the very 1st US Flier i Ever saw, back in 88. ( thats the only time ive seen you in a AUS Nats. flying the laser. As i mentioned to you We were all impressed, and that point ( even as an 8 yr old boy ) Made me respect and admire the Whole US system.

So dont think for one second that I am US bashing. Im not sure how you draw that conclusion.

QUOTE :
PJ says he can do it himself, good show, Bud. But I see that his other side says that he flew with the Japanese team all day taking hints and suggestions from them. So, I got the impression he has a bias against me, or Brett, or maybe, dare I say, US guys?

I dont even know how you draw that conclusion. Ted Will tell you ive had a couple of emails back and forth on trimming issues. And I spoke to PW many times about trimming the bomber out and his views on how his performed.
All I was getting at. Stick to the issue of THIS THREAD: . Was context.. that dont look at the chinese as the workhorses.. The japanese were very good at lots of practice also.

I also stated I can do it myself. YES. but I will never not ask someone (my senior) advice if I need to find out an issue I am having problems with. MY POINT WAS : try to learn yourself, dont RELY.. and that is the critical part.. dont RELY on asking those top guys to solve your problems. There is nothign wrong with what I said. I ask for advice.

The only reason i brought that up was, they offered help and I accepted the flight practice sessions. Opened my eyes.
Sure, there is no need to burn gallons of fuel.

Look at ANY SPORT : Tiger Woods, hits hours of balls.. But Vejay Singh is renowned for doing more practice that ANYONE else.

Tennis : Federer, hits 6 hr practice days.
Snooker : Ronnie O'sullivan pots 8 hr days. The great Walter Lindram used to put in 10 hr sessions.

No matter HOW in trim your model is.. or how good you are at something to get better, you need to practice, but make it worthwile practice. Dont practice mistakes.

Enough of the childish behavior! Add to the thread! I apologise for lowering myself.

Whats funny, is Out of the people i mentioned I had a higher score than, In the US NATS Bob Whitley was one of them

( I simply chose names of people I knew and respected )

PJ,

I'll admit that I do the same thing. I change things just to see what it will do to the flight characteristics. I flew for a long time with Pat Johnston (and will fly with him again tomorrow at what is probably the last contest of the season for me). He taught me that if you're going to try something, try it a lot. In other words, if you have a problem and decide to, say, move the leadouts, move them a lot to see if it effects the problem. I always listen to guys that are better than me. Paul, Howard (when you can get him to say anything), Ted and Brett always give good advice. It even usually works. Tends to make you want to listen to them. But I will still screw around with it to better understand the plane and how trim works.

Tends to make you want to listen to
>them. But I will still screw around with it to better
>understand the plane and how trim works.

Did I ever say I dont listen to the advice of others??

No..

I said.. Try to work it out for yourself .

Whats funny, is Out of the people i mentioned I had a higher score than, In the US NATS Bob Whitley was one of them

( I simply chose names of people I knew and respected )

PJ,
I gotta know, man. How is it that you think that you scored higher than Whitely? Whitely was in the top twenty and you were 38th. Different circles on different days do not an outscoring make.
Chris...

LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-06 AT 11:39 PM (CST)
 
Chris.

You have to look at the score presented, I realise there were different circles.
I hear you all goign on about consistency of judges, at us nats.
Fact I scored what I did..
Fact, the others scored what they did.
If I was on the other circle I would have made the top also with that score.

I lucked out on being on a tough circle. ( no excuse i should have flown better. ) I just looked at what was scored. If you want to downplay that, then fine.
I placed 38th. with a 500+

Frank McMillian : 12th :Made the finals with 500.5

Doesnt matter to me, just your then admitting to inacurate jugdeing across the circles.

Look it doesnt matter either way, there were a bunch of guys who scored well (500+) who didnt make it.. Who gives a rats? Im sure there is the same arguement every year. I accepted the rules when I entered.

My whole point was simply defending where I placed.

Not that I need to. Im not that insecure.

By the way,
>you didn't mean that when I come to you for help that I am a
>sycophant, did you!? I don't like pink airplanes, so I'm
>sure I am not!
>
>Chris...

No, Chris. Certainly not. One of the things I enjoy most about the forums is the give and take and differences of opinion that surface. It bothers me sometimes that when I comment on a thread that it more or less ceases to get input ... kind of like the oracle has spoken!

Nothing could be further from the truth. I've learned a lot about stunt in a lifetime of doing it, but that doesn't for minute mean I can't learn more from others ... whether there name is Aldrich or Magilcuddy. I love to engage other points of view and am more than willing to both learn and admit I've been wrong.

None of which means I won't engage loudly and longly in support of positions in which I have great confidence.

My only point in entering this discussion is that points of view should be exactly that and not reconstructed as personal attacks or be responded to in that manner. Winning isn't necessarily the currency by which knowledge is measured. I've said repeatedly over the last fifteen or so years that Brett, who never won the nats until a month or two ago, was my go to guy for matters of airplane trim, etc. nothwithstanding my four Walker Cup trophies. If I only heeded input from people who beat me I'd have missed out on a lot of wisdom.

Winning isn't necessarily the currency by which knowledge is measured.

- The oracle has spoken

Couldnt have said that better myself.

I was teasing you, Ted.
Chris...

Wow... after this last exchange I think I'll go watch some Xena reruns!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-06 AT 10:22 AM (CST)
 
>I was teasing you, Ted.
>Chris...

Not only that. You spelled better than me, as well.

sycophant with two Ns. Oi vey. Shame on me.

Ted

Edited for mispelling it yet again.

Thanks Ted for the referee help. I know I come across cranky at times, just my nature, don't mean much by it.

PJ..I know you were there and I know where you placed, I was kinda yanking your chain a little. I think you have come a long way in a relatively short time. However, and there is always an however, arrogance can be a little wearisome. Confidence is always good but not many like to hear about it all the time. And yeah, I remember you from the Nats' that time and thought you did alright. Not great, but alright. Anyway, if an apology is in order then I do apologize.

Let's keep having fun with this. After all isn't that why we do this stuff? Regards, Bob Whitely aka RJ

I wasnt trying to be arogant.

I totally agree.. I just did alright.. not great by any means.

I dont use this as my excuse, but unforunatly, I crashed my world champs model, 4 weeks before i was due to leave for the USA, so I had little / no time for practise. We spent, 2 weeks rebuilding her, and then another 3 days on the repaint.. noone was more dissapointed than I was at my efforts. I was flying a substandard ship, overweight be 6 oz, and have no time on it!
The paint was really shi++y clear bubbled, the airbrushed work was rushed, and frankly, I spent most of the time in the US embarresed at my efforts. But it taught me alot.. I met great guys, and the last 2 yrs ive come further than I thought was possible.

No excuses, thats just an unfortunate fact. Dont worry, Ive been personally invited back by many folks in the USA, you are all good friends, and I want to compete again, but be more prepared, and fly a darn site better.

I mean 560 is a score I could get with my eyes closed !
( love that arogance ! Id fit right in with the US culture )

I guess bob, this is a problem we ( everyone ) has in an online community, you read, but HOW ITS said.. is always a problem.. hearign sarcasm online is almost impossible.. and ive been chattin in online forums + BBS's for 10 yrs!

No-one's nose was out of joint.. ( albeit I think i took it the wrong way.. )

Hopefully with anyluck.. i will be able to come to the 08 nats, and be blinded by that Hawian shirt once more !
Ya pal PJ

----

how did this turn into talk about me! LOL thougth we were talkin about how good the chinese were!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 06:49 PM (CST)
 
"Let me tell ya', if I knew everything like PJ does I'd never build another plane. What would be the point?
PJ, how come is it that you came to know so much but I never seem to see your name in the winners circle? Of course, it could just be possible that you are so much ahead of the rest of us that you are at your own level of expertise.
I would think someone at your level could win anywhere...Where did you place at our Nat's a couple of years ago? RJ"

Far out. What a fantastic attitude you possess, man. The diplomacy is breath taking, the international exchange you just displayed will win you friends worldwide, I'm sure of it.

BTW, I do not know PJ and I am not defending PJ, he can do that himself I'm sure. I'm just so "Impressed" by this and related exchanges that I am lost for words. Words like Redneck, bigoted, xenophobe.....meh, the list is endless. What an ambassador you truly are.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 07:31 PM (CST)
 
So, what I am seeing is....
the rules for this forum are:-

only winners are allowed to comment.

only winners of a US origin are allowed a dignified response

anyone who disagrees is automatically regarded as having taken it personally.

Winners and select friends are allowed an opinion without comeback

If it is deemed that a "winner" is under attack all other winners will band around the man and defend him regardless of how dumb it appears to be.

Anyone who disagrees with a US winner is obviously a foreigner and is to be attacked or ignored at the winner's discretion. Why, he's attacking the 'merican constitution. Much flag waving and rallying of the troops to follow.

Bizarre. As I have said in another thread, no level of achievement entitles a man to an opinion without challenge. When I first found this forum some years back I was more than pleased, unfortunately I cannot say the same anymore. There are some good people here (regardless of which country they hail from) and there are some bad.

The Good Ole Boy factor is starting to overwhelm this place.

PS,
I am in no way anti American, I have too many friends in the US to ever think such a way. There are too many good people there to think otherwise. But I am certainly noticing something strange here.

PPS.

Isky, my apologies for the hijack of an otherwise fine thread.

You're a little late to the dance. If you'd scroll up a little, they've already made amends.

cheers,
Ken

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 07:36 PM (CST)
 
Sure Ken, but judging by attitudes displayed some people need to hear it.

Its all good.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 07:53 PM (CST)
 
>So, what I am seeing is....
>the rules for this forum are:-

>
>Anyone who disagrees with a US winner is obviously a
>foreigner and is to be attacked or ignored at the winner's
>discretion. Why, he's attacking the 'merican constitution.
some bad.
>
>The Good Ole Boy factor is starting to overwhelm this place.
>
>
>PS,
too many friends in the
>US to ever think such a way. There are too many good people
>thre to think otherwise. But I am certainly noticing
apologies for the hijack of an otherwise fine
>thread.

I disagree almost completely. I have shared my opinions and have never taken it personally. I have never been a winner but I keep sharing them and have been allowed to do so with only one short interruption years ago. I know of not a single bad fellow here. A few people do have the hero-worship going on but that is true of every interest and hobby, and humanity in general. That is why Carl Sagan (astronomer) had the answers to world hunger, Bill Gates (businessman) can save Africa and that Bowno (riff-raff) is generally saving the world.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 07:59 PM (CST)
 
Well said Floyd. I was a tad too strong, sure, but I hold to what I said for the majority of it.

I presume Bowno is Bono ? Good music Floyd, I dunno about saving the world part.

Its ok guys really, Ive had a couple of emails now from other concerned forum viewers, I think it was made in jest and takent he wrong way.

Right bob?

LAST EDITED ON Oct-08-06 AT 09:55 PM (CST)
 

PJ, Don't let them get to ya! After all, this really is all fun and games. Since I have built a few twins I can appreciate what you did with your Lancaster. I'm sure you have seen on these forums that many never read past the one reply really counts. I've even done it myself (can't remember when, though). I did think that the herding cats comment was one of funniest statements in a long time. Keep havin' fun! RJ

LAST EDITED ON Oct-09-06 AT 11:09 AM (CST)
 
didnt get to me

meow

=^:^=

The bomber was fun, what Paul did was more impressive than what I did. Sure it worked and was compeditive and was a sucess and was hard work and was fun, but i agree with PW ,Id need to be mad to do it again

by the way ive got another one on the drawing board so i guess i am mad