Chinese ARF Factory, Who's Been There?

TELL ALL!

Floyd Carter (world's oldest Advanced stunt flyer)

Floyd Carter (world's oldest Advanced stunt flyer)

Yes, and I am always filled with wonderment when someone says such a thing.

Hint: Were it not for what you call "sweat shops," can you please tell me what these young women might be doing for a living?

It may appear horrible to anyone living in the US, but to those working in building such things as ARF Flite Streaks, a "sweat shop" is a step *up*, not as you seem to think a step down!

(I didn't get the card tester design work.. Still, it was an interesting experience. El Paso/Juarez is the largest U.S./Mexico border complex, and Juarez alone has a larger monetary product than the entire state of New Mexico. Juarez is a great city.)

Now, if we could only get some ARC/ARF maquillas going in Juarez! I suppose the Chinese are cheaper at this point..

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"I could tell that my parents hated me. My bath toys were a toaster and a radio." -Rodney Dangerfield

>"One comes away with a sense of wonderment that such things,
>usually called 'sweat-shops' still happen in the world."
>
>Floyd Carter (world's oldest Advanced stunt flyer)
>
>
>Yes, and I am always filled with wonderment when someone
>says such a thing.
>
>Hint: Were it not for what you call "sweat shops," can you
>please tell me what these young women might be doing for a
>living?
>
>It may appear horrible to anyone living in the US, but to
>those working in building such things as ARF Flite Streaks,
>a "sweat shop" is a step *up*, not as you seem to think a
>step down!
>
>Dan

Well said Dan...because of all the bit**in about Kathy Lee's "sweat shops," my niece lost the first steady paying, dignity providing job, my family in Thailand had due to lost contracts. Ask her what she thinks of our "do-gooders."
Norm

>"Hint: Were it not for what you call "sweat shops," can you
>please tell me what these young women might be doing for a
>living?"

>Dan

Making AKMs for the PLA...

The quality control people seem quite competent.

I have been to HK and the mainland for C*x, Mattel, and Jasman. Toy design is a great career!!!

I'm really interested in the ARF PROCESS!

When the balsa goes in one end and the planes come out the other -- WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE?

Is it an assembly line like a Toyata factory or one-on-one like the original VolksWagon factory?

How many manhours (girlhours?) would you estimate per plane?

... and all that jazz.

The biggest question I have about the process is, have they figured out how to plantation grow balsa trees? In readung articles about it over the years, balsa trees (supposedly) only grew in the rain forrest of Equador, and grew hap hazzardly in the forrest. When the demand for super tankers arose, it was tried toplantation grow it like rubber trees, or control the growth some how, but this didn't work. Several tears ago, I hear a rumer that some one on an island near the equator close to New Zealand was having small succes growing light wood that was aimed at the indoor market, but I can't verify that.
The wood that all the ARFs I've seen, R/C and C/L, seems amazingly consistant, and the weights of kits is amazingly consistant also.
That's what I would like know.
Dan McEntee

Dan,

mate! New Zealand is about as close to the equator as Alaska is!

Yes Balsa has been successfully grown for decades in Papua New Guinea (PNG) in plantations. PNG is very close to Australia, which is a large landmass between the former and New Zealand.

Rows and rows of women worked on sewing machines making seat covers and door panels for GM cars.

They were obliged to accept rock-bottom wages, only $12 per hour, plus benefits. Due to Cold War issues, we did not have access to The Eastern Bloc and Red China.

The sweat shop was in Livonia, Michigan.

As a Machinery Design Supervisor in the world's largest shipyard I made a WHOPPING $14,000!

Some sweatshop!

...which may help explain the exhorbitant cost of Detroit iron, then and now.

Now THAT's some big iron...

Know the feeling. Same year: same pay grade plus jump pay in the Army.

If I had known you could make that much in detroit sewing seat covers I might have left the Army sooner than 1970.

Yeah Mikey, you're right, that certainly explains a lot about the cost of Detroit "iron".

And how much detrimental effect Unions can have on the economy as a whole. Oops did I say that?

PS: for what it's worth $12.00 and hr works out to about $23,000 annually not 40,000 as was mentioned above. Still quite a bit for 1965.

edited for spelling and to add PS:

HR types will tell you the official rate is 2080 hours per annum (easy way to remember is IRS form 1040 then double that number). So $12/hr is $24,960 annual equivalent.

I was making $90.00 per month in the Air Force.

Progress is our most important problem

I'd go back to the USAF for less, just for the job satisfaction. There's a lot more targets that need some attention, at least as much as the NVA.

In 1965 I was filthy rich. I got $43.27 every 2 weeks compliments of Uncle Sam. Mountain Home AFB in Idaho Got to work 9 days and one off, nine days and one off, nine days and believe it or not 2 days off, then the cycle reset. We've all worked in 'sweat shop ' conditions and didn't fare the worse for it.
Dennis

I have a couple of those sewing machines in my basement!

You heard what happened when they translated "Body by Fisher" into Spanish, right?

Ray: See <chuckle> your <cough> e-mail <WAH-ha-ha-ha...>

Some years back, there was an article about balsa in Flying Models (IIRC). They ARE growing them in plantations. Mainly in Ecuador, but also, I've heard, in Costa Rica and elsewhere in Central America. The Balsa tree grows quickly, it can be harvested in 5-7 years. The big expense is in kiln drying the stuff - as harvested, the trees are waterlogged and very heavy. Dry them too fast, they get brittle, too slow and they get mildew. Too much wind, the trees get "wind checks".

>Several tears ago, I hear a rumer that some one on an island
>near the equator close to New Zealand was having small
>succes growing light wood that was aimed at the indoor
>market, but I can't verify that.

Papua New Guinea. Closer to Australia, actually. Most of this wood is cut and sold in Australia.

> The wood that all the ARFs I've seen, R/C and C/L, seems
>amazingly consistant, and the weights of kits is amazingly
>consistant also.

Yeah, I wonder, too. I'd heard at least some of it was laser cut in the States and shipped over. They probably use jigs everywhere. You should look at how some of the RC ARFs are put together - interlocking tabs, lightening holes everywhere. The miracle of laser cutting. CL ARFs are far more "traditional".

Also interesting is the Russian/Ukrainian/Moldavian ARF trade. These are Combat planes, of course. The balsa gets shipped to them through Western European/Scandinavian modelers, who take built planes in trade. The story I heard some time back involved a small army of housewives building at home with jigs! Balsa was cut at a central location, foam leading edges made and wrapped at a different location, bits given to said housewives would assemble planes in between the ironing and the cooking of dinner. How true this was, I've no idea.

My mother was involved for a while in the 50's.
Talk about a real "sweatshop". Work most of the day, come home, fix dinner for kids then build a chassis full of resistors and capacitors before bed time...

My brother in Oz has a car alarm factory - but all the actual assembly is now done in Taiwan and PRC. This "sweat shop" thing is tricky one to handle. Yes, some employers treat their staff abominably and pay very little. But if you do that you will find you cannot keep staff. I thought I was doing very well as a business owner in Africa (Zimbabwe) and taking home about US$700 to $750 a month. I believe that is below the poverty dataum line in US? I had everything I needed, a good vehicle, big house and a maid to cook and look after the house and garden. Whereas here in UK $700 (£400?) a week is difficult to live on. In the Third World (and China I guess?) everything you need is far, far cheaper than in the developed countries.

I used to like painting with dope but now I can't remember why. _________Steve Fauble

The difference there was taxes placed on those "luxury" items by the government.

..........now I dare you to repost this and see what people ask you

No, it's not the taxes. It's simply that the American market is HUGE, and everyone's trying to get a piece of it.

My Chinese neighbor tells me that her brother makes about $25000 a year in China. He lives on 10% of that and banks the rest, mostly for travel. Granted, he doesn't live in a large city. They say country life there is slower and not as stressfull as here. Their relatives cannot fathom the debt they have taken on here in the US (home mortgage)and wonder how they will ever pay it back.

As far as the sweatshop thing goes, in this country we always imagine child labor as children being chained to machines and forced to work. I was in Bangladesh about 10 years ago and found the children to be eager, efficiant workers wanting to help feed their families. Wages were 50 cents to $2.50 a day for adults and children. High minded people over here would love to stop that practice even before the systems are in place to insure that such labor isn't necessary. India just passed a Child Labor law. Does anyone actually think that all of the children that lost their jobs will be better off or be in school?
Everyone in the US should be required to visit a 3rd world country. It will change your perspective on alot of things.

We went to China, to look into having them do plating for us at a much lower cost. We were appalled at what we saw. Dirt floors, no ventilation, chemicals spilled and in puddles, workers in bare feet with chemical sores. We could not support that! The decision was to stay with our California plating facility.

To the credit of our management at that time, they still had some moral values, and California jobs were saved. I don't know what has happened since the new european owners took over and tonight's bottom line is the only thing that counts.

I looked into this when the Score was released. I, too wanted answers. Bob Hunt put me in touch with the right guy at MA magazine and he put me in touch with Top Flite. I could not get an answer! The best explanation I heard was that the R&D dept's that produce ARFs are very secretive. It's a very competitive business (on the R/C side, I assume) and sources are carefully guarded.

One good thing came of all this: I was asked to do the review of the Score for MA magazine. To be published in the Spring, I'm told.

>I looked into this when the Score was released. I, too
>wanted answers. Bob Hunt put me in touch with the right guy
>at MA magazine and he put me in touch with Top Flite. I
>could not get an answer! The best explanation I heard was
>that the R&D dept's that produce ARFs are very secretive.
>It's a very competitive business (on the R/C side, I assume)
>and sources are carefully guarded.

How do you know the designer was an American? (Think about where the things come from, for a minute... there are bound to be quite a few competent fliers and designers there.)

The US "poverty level" is as phoney as a statistic can get.
It's whatever the reigning party wants it to be.
The liberals want a lot of people to "feel poor" and support them, so they want it sky-high.
Obviously, the other side wants the oppostite.

From what I've heard of far-east economics, the unemployed still envy those on the 30-cent-per-hour gravy train.

In the US of A, employers who still want to "be legal" have to pay $14 in fixed cost before the worker gets penny-one. No wonder they hire illegals for $6 green.

I've spent about half an hour Goggling this, trying to figure out where that figure of $14.00 came from. I never did find mention of what you quote but in the process of slogging through various accounting and business websites I discovered those fixed costs that seem so outrageous can include physical facilities as well as executive salaries.

Where did you get that number, Paul? What does it include? Is it a daily cost? Weekly?

I'm always leery of numbers cited without source or explanation. This is a classic example. By itself it means absolutely nothing.

That's one thing I can't get over when I visit England - the huge cost of living. I spent 6 weeks at our UK office in Chippenham, Wiltshire earlier this year, and my expenses (all on corporate Amex) were huge.

Most things in the UK seem to be the same number of UK£ as they are AUS$ - eg, a simple take away burger which might be $4.95 in Australia is around £4.95 in England. A UK pound is about AUS$2.50, so for a visiting Aussie everything there costs about 2.5 times as much as it does at home. Some things were even more expensive - eg. my rail commute to work (Bath to Chippenham) was costing something like 5 times what the same distance would here on Queensland Rail.

The exchange rate has effectively priced UK products (like PAW diesels) right out of our market - in fact its probably cheaper for an Aussie to get PAWs and many other Euro/UK engines from Carlson in the US. For the cost of a single PAW 249, I could buy about 5 MARZ 2.5 diesels. Even if a couple break, I'd still come out ahead.

cheers,
Colin

BUT, back to the question:

How are ARFs manufactured? I have visions of two old fat Chinamen sorting balsa wood while a 13 year old girl builds the models and her mother packs them up and ships them to Brodak.

They may not be getting much pay but since they are in socialist controlled economies a lot of out of pocket expenses that we have, they don't. I would not give up my freedom (what's left of it) to get that advantage.

don Burke
Menifee, CA

How do you know the designer was an American? (Think about where the things come from, for a minute...)

Iskandar is right about this, and I have never for a moment thought the Score to be a "US design," whatever that might mean.

Hey, look around, folks! Do any of you honestly think that if a US modeler designed the Score he would ignore the bragging rights associated with same? Even if he did, some hanger-onner would quickly find out and be blabbing about just knowing the designer of the Score.

Or try this: What price total confidentiality? High, real high. Too high for this particular product, a limited-run ARF in the overall scheme of things.

Continuing on a theme, does anybody know the designers of, say, 90% of the RC ARFs out there? Of course not. And could not even pronounce the name given days of practice.

And do you think the Hobbico marketing arm so incompetent that they would not be using Mr. Famous US Designer, his name and his reputation in the advertising?

All of that said, last weekend in Salem I saw my first Score, even saw it fly. Ya know, it actually looked pretty good.

I am considering assembling one for a practice model, to fiddle more with trim setups, and as a piece to use in saying, "Here, boy, this be as close are you are going get to flying one of my real PA models. But it's a 90-percenter just as it sits, the motor is a 90-percenter, and as Brett has pointed out on SSW, that's pretty darned good. Have fun. Learn something. Even if it's just where you're going, what you are trying to achieve."

Exactly WHERE did you get the idea that I had assumed the designer was American?

RC

RC,

Didn't say a thing concerning assumptions you may or may not have made.

I was responding to Iskandar.

This makes me wonder what these Chinese companies are charging to produce the ARFs we buy...

Pete "jet-lagged" Giammona
Reno, NV

Pete,

Retail price divided by 5 or 6 is a pretty good guess. That's on the producer's shipping dock, of course.

Considerable costs follow in getting the product to market and then sold.

Personally, I see nothing nefarious going on here, just the good old capitalist system at work.

If (BIG IF) a propriatary factory only turns out Brodak ARF planes, I stand by my "fat chinaman" theory.

I think maybe that the covering will never have to be re-done at the factory if they use a cool iron and let the buyer over stretch.

Mike Burg

...and not only that,..but las nite,..it gots sick,...and it's belly turned yellar and or-range. But it didn't hep that thar cricket stab-e-lie-zur nun to much eithua!

I gots a fillin' that that uder one is gonna do the same thang! Whaz is it they's be puttin' in these "Dog Gone Airplanes". (ARF's)

The first is makings fairly high end /lower volume stuff:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=532303&pp=15
Most of the pictures are on the first two pages.

The next one is GWS in China. Mass market foam "junk":

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460137
Lots of pictures, including this one of the ARF girls getting the morning pep talk. They look tired and bored to me
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Pat MacKenzie

I'd say, pretty much like factory girls anywhere

Factories look nice and clean and modern to me

With their 1.4 billion people, China is set to be the world's leading economic power fairly soon.