Stuka Stunt Control Line Forum
Archive, 2000–2021 · recovered from the Internet Archive
Forums › Stuka Stunt Main Forum

re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 25 of 25 known posts recovered

jobellcrank · Oct 17, 2006 02:37 PM

re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-06 AT 02:54 PM (CST)
 
Gierke was ahead of his time when he designed the Novi and All American Eagle. His method of constructing an I-Beam wing didn't catch on at the time, due to the complex cutting req'd for the ribs, I believe.

His method was to loft up a set of ribs, with the spars located below the surface of the rib. He then was able to build a wing with a true airfoil for the entire legnth, and do so without the necessary flip over to build the other side of the wing, which is the standard method with strip ribs.

Recently, we've been building one of these designs, but we took the time to loft the ribs on CAD and had them laser cut. We also took the time to look at any possible improvements we could add to the method, since cutting with a laser made a lot of problems go away.

Suffice it to say, what what we ended up with is very light, fast building, accurate, and very strong. So far, the framed up wing and fuselage, sans controls, flaps, wing tips, weighs in at 11.8 oz's. I'll try and add some pics later, if there's any interest.

Edit: I forgot to mention that we are building two of these designs. The first one, which may wind up being slightly heavier, because we were still learning, Is pretty well along. It lacks only the cowl, wheels, tank, engine, spinner, and nose gear. Basically almost ready for covering and final finish. It weighs in at 23 oz's at this stage.

Edited for spelun errars

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

Steve Lotz · Oct 17, 2006 02:58 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#1 source
Are you doing the Novi? If so, which one?

jobellcrank · Oct 17, 2006 03:01 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#2 source
No, doing the All American Eagle. I believe the same wing is used on at least one of the Novi's.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

LM · Oct 17, 2006 03:02 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#3 source
Hi.

Yes, there is interest, pictures please. At the moment I am working with a carbon main spar. It's for D-box but I think that it would be superior in I-beam, too.
My spar is based on free flight F1a glider (Yablanovsky short) main spars. They are made of UD carbon, measuring 10x0.8mm in root and 4x0.8mm in tip. Core is 30kg/m3 Rohacell and sides are covered with +-45degr. sheet compressed from 80g/m2 carbon. Sides are perhaps a little too heavy but I'm still searching for lighter carbon cloth. Propably 68g will be ideal when I find some.
Well, actually it is more like square beam rather than I-beam so it is much more rigid, also against torsion. And it is also very easy to attach Yatsenko-style take-apart elements to the carbon spars.

Regards, Lauri

jobellcrank · Oct 17, 2006 03:10 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-06 AT 03:14 PM (CST)
 
Lauri,

Your spars are definatly Hi "Zoot". Should be very strong.

What we are working with is all balsa. Stil pretty well the art form for I-Beamers, but faster and more accurate in construction. Nothing more than a flat building surface is needed as the thing self jigs. CF could be added to some areas, but I believe that the added stregnth would be achieved by making the construction a little more complicated. Simple to do if needed, but we're not using CF on these first ones.

Edit: Using CAD and laser cutting is what really makes this method work so good. I plan on using this method on almost all my future designs.

I've a bunch of pics in the camera taken during the build. I'll get them out and post them soon.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

zedad71 · Oct 17, 2006 07:36 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#6 source
definetly pictures please!

Mark Scarborough
After years of running round in circles at the Rat Race Now I run around in circles for fun, go figure

cfrizell · Oct 17, 2006 03:10 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#5 source
Pictures please

Charles

EddyR · Oct 17, 2006 09:31 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#7 source
Funny everyone flips there I beam to do the bottom but it is not really necessary.The bottom half of the rib can be put in from the top and then the top rib half. Using CA glue has made it very easy.This makes building wings with dihedral very easy as the wing is not removed from the I Beam jig.I have been doing some of my I beams this way for 40 years.I looked at one of Gierke planes at Buffalo a long time ago and I think it was a true I Beam. I do not remember it being built as the article shows. Maybe I am wrong but I drew pictures of it that I still have.There is a possibility it was one of Steve Wooley
Ed

Randy Powell · Oct 18, 2006 12:56 AM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#8 source
John,

Laser cutting would be the way to do it, that much certain. I've been looking at these plans (all 4 Novis) for a very long time. What stopped me from building them was the massive amount of ribs to cut that had to be cut very accurately.

My Novi I is underway. Dave sent me some color pictures of the original taken at the 65 nats. very cool plane.

Bigiron13 · Oct 18, 2006 10:25 AM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#9 source
I know of only three Novi series planes. The I, III, and IV. Then there was the All American Eagle. If you have any data or plans to the II, I would like a copy of them as I am building one of every plane that Dave Gierke designed. So far I have built the I, III, and IV and am working on a second IV.
The novi I, III, and All American Eagle all used the same wing except for the tips.
I made rib templates for all of mine.
Bigiron

Bigiron13

jobellcrank · Oct 19, 2006 03:53 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#10 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 04:08 PM (CST)
 
Randy wrote:
What stopped me from building them was the
>massive amount of ribs to cut that had to be cut very
>accurately.

True enough Randy. But the ribs are where I believe Dave was ahead of his time. Had CAD and Laser cutting been around back then we might all have been building "Beamers" differently today.

Here are a few thoughts on the subject.

Dave used a set of lofted ribs that slid onto the I-beam. This makes for a much more accurate airfoil for the entire legnth of the wing, compared to strip ribs. Strip ribs make better use of a smaller amount of balsa gold, but the airfoil suffers towards the tips.

Others, apparently, were also aware of this design flaw with the "Beamers" because several have tried methods to use lofted ribs combined with an I-beam.

I've seen a lot of methods where wings were built, semi-I-beam style. Some were better than others, but almost all of them required very accurate and tedious cutting to make them work.

Let's compare the different styles of Beams, and explore what makes them work, and why it's sometimes possible to over engineer them with resultant increases in weight.

As an example, I recently saw a great looking box style beam, to be used in an I-beam design. Very strong, well built, but weighed in at over 4 ounces by itself. For a `550 square inch wing, that's a lot of weight, and most likely more than needed.

First, as to engineering for stregnth, I was always taught that the design should be strong enough to support the plane in flight, handle the minor excesses that it maight be subjected to, but when it came to a serious crash, if the plane didn't all turn to dust, I had built it over engineered, and thus, too heavy.

When the fellows in Detroit began building the I-beam ships, it was to utilize the weight savings, accuracy, speed, and less balsa needed for their ships. They were very successful and managed to keep the method secret for several years. The designs depended partly upon the stregnth of the covering to help support the wing in flight.

For the sake of this letter, I'm assuming that we are discussing all wood structures. It's possible to do some amazing things with modern composite construction techniques.

I-beams were mainly one to three laminations of balsa, with cap strips on top and bottom, hence the name, "I-beamers", the beam looked like a capital I. This is a good design for flex stregnth, but lacks a bit for torsion, thus the need for additional support from the covering.

From what I remember from my design class, an I beam puts the maximum area or section modules at the widest part of the structure. This makes for the greatest stregnth in expansion or compression when the beam is flexed. The wider the top and bottom caps are, the greater the section modules, and the resistance to extension and compression.

Choosing the I-Beam for the Detroit Stunters was simply good engineering for the time.

I've seen beams with no caps. These will not be as strong, in flex resistance, as the I-beam until their widths are as wide or wider than the caps on the I-beam, (section modules)and by the time it gets there, it'll be much heavier than the I-Beam.

Dick Williams used a form of I-Beam in his Electra design, that was notched. This idea was good for locating the rib stations, but not so good for stregnth. He solved the problem by also sheeting the leading edge. It was not, and is not, considered an I-beam design.

Many others have used some form of a beam to build their wings on. I-beams, Box-beams, (which have a bit more torsional rigidity)and other combinations, but to me, the simple I-beam is still the winner for light, yet strong enough, structures. Adding shear webbing to a C tube wing, resulting in a D tube, is the same as using an I beam with the cap strips of the beam at the surface of the wing.

Back to Gierke's design. He used a spar, made up of 3 laminations. A center of 1/8" balsa, with the grain oriented to the legnth of the wing, and 2 outside layers of 3/32" balsa oriented at angles to the center. As in most I-beam designs from the classic era. the center was plywood and mounted the gear.

When we first looked at the design, knowing we would be laser cutting the ribs, we decided to install a 1/8" X 1/2" spar below the surface of the wing, as if it were the cap strip to a normal I-Beam. Gierke didn't use this in his design, instead he depended on the stregnth of the laminations to carry the load.

We figured that the spars, oriented as they would be, would give us the maximum section modules, and therefore the highest stregnth we could get using wood structures. It was decided that we would hedge our bets, and use a spruce spar, 1/8" X 1/2", and install shear webbing between the ribs, therfore making up the I-beam.

This worked pretty good, until we started installing the shear webbing. It took 2 nights to cut and fit all theses little pieces of vertical grained wood. It did wind up very strong, and relativly light weight.

About the same time, the second plane was ready to have the wing built. Being lazy, I didn't want to spend all that time installing the shear webbing, and knowing myself, and my building habits, I wasn't sure I would put enough effort into the project as was put into the first one.

They say necessity is the mother of invention, and it proved itself once again. I could simply cut a 1/8" slot between the 1/8" X 1/2" caps, and slide a 1/8" full legnth shear web into place. It only took a few minutes to make these changes, and we were ready to start assembling the wing.

The typical lines were laid out. One center line for the fuse, a crossing line at right angles to the center line, for the trailing edge of the wing, and locating lines parrallel to the center line, where the last ribs would be located. These last ribs, and one in the middle of each wing panel were set up the same as the tip rib for a nomal I-beam.

After positioning the fuse, the trailing edge, (Angled braces were glued to the flat table top)and sliding in the 1/8" X 1/2" balsa spars, (yes, we used balsa spars on the second plane) We began sliding on, and positioning the ribs and half ribs. We made several tools to help. One was used to support the ribs as we slid them onto the spars. Others were used to set up the spacing.

It soon became very apparent that this was going to be a strong wing spar. The fits were tight, due to the accuracy of the laser cutting, and even before any glue was applied, the spar was very resistant to flexing.

Once every part was in place, glue, in the form, of thin CA was applied. The struture is quite rigid in flex, and very light weight. The fuselage weighed in at about 7 oz's before the wing was added. Now the entire fuse with the wing assembled to it weighs in at 11.8 oz's. When the controls are added, as well as wing tips, flaps, horns, etc. the weight wil go up, but not much more than 4 oz's, about 16 oz's total. Not bad for 630 sq inches.

Pictures are coming, but since I'm leaving in a few minutes for Clovis CA. they'll have to wait until I get home.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

Bob Hunt · Oct 20, 2006 08:03 AM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#11 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-20-06 AT 08:06 AM (CST)
 
Hi all:

I've been reading this thread with some interest as I've always loved the models of Dave Gierke and Jim Kostecky. Many of their designs did indeed feature a full-rib I-Beam design. I have found this method of building an I-beam wing to be extremely easy using my Lost-Foam construction technique.

Attached (hopefully) is a photo of a Novi wing that I built (in one day I might add!) using this method. The wing is accurate beyond belief because the Lost-Foam technique keys on the outside shape of the wing, not on a centerline.

Wings built using this I-Beam technique are beautiful and strong, but I don't see that they are any lighter than wings built using other protocols. In fact, I've found that a "C"-Tube wing with shear webs is both simpler to build and a bit lighter in finished weight. The I-Beams, though, are just flat pretty!

Bob Hunt

PS: I think I uploaded one file twice by mistake. I don't know how to delete it, so one picture will probably appear here twice!

Bob Hunt

TomN · Oct 22, 2006 10:23 AM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#12 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-06 AT 05:17 AM (CST)
 
I agree with Bob that I-beamers "are just flat pretty". And the lost foam method is also great.

With that said, John's developement is very interesting, and I am anxious to see some pictures. Since I am using Cad and laser cutting, the world has been opened up to things that couldn't easily be done before. The removable landing gear in my Roadrunner kits, being a good example of this. This simply could not be done without the accuracy that is now achieved.

Sliding the "Gierke ribs" onto accurate spars, and an additional jigging plate mid-span, per John's description certainly has much merit. I don't know if this improves much over the stressed skin of the traditional I-beamer. That is why I want to see the pictures. There are several wing planforms and dihedral and polyhedral schemes that are also possible with the I-beam. Jack Sheeks certainly expanded that envelope.

The jury is out on weight, but I wouldn't discount the possibilites there.

I flew Jim Konstecky's "Spirit of America" at the St Louis Team trials, and to this day I wish that I could reproduce that airplane. I sent a picture of the airplane to him, since Jim had told me that he didn't have a picture of it. Jim was a great guy, and he is missed.

Tom N

jobellcrank · Oct 25, 2006 11:50 AM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#17 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-06 AT 12:23 PM (CST)
 
OK, here're some of the pics from the building of this wing. I have a few more that I'll have to add to another post to make all the pics available.

The first picture shows what the cap spar location was like for the first wing. This is the one that req'd us to spend a few nights adding the shear webbing. The addition of the vertical slot for a continous shear web is shown on one of the ribs.

The next 2 pictures show the way the fuse and trailing edge were centered up, using lines and brackets for alignment.

Picture number 4 shows the ribs being slid unto the cap spars. At this time, the cap spars are only in place, the full legnth shear web will be slide into place soon. I wanted to have a few ribs in place to help support the shear web. Nothing is glued at this time.

Also note the piece of plywood at the far right. This was laser cut as an aid for sliding the ribs and half ribs into place with out putting undo stress on the ribs. It really helped keep splitting or breaking down to a minimum.

The next 2 photos show the shear web in place and all the ribs and half ribs in place. They are not in their final placement yet, and the leading edge is not in place until all the ribs are in.

In one of the views, if you look closely, you can see the support at mid span, as well as the tip.

The next 2 photos show the jig used to locate, and align the ribs and half ribs. One spaced for the inboard, the other for the outboard panel. You can also see a bettter view of the plywood piece we used to support the ribs as we slide them onto the spars, lying on the bench in the forground.

The last 3 photos show the framed up wing, with the tip and center ribs trimmed. the last photo shows the wing and fuse on the digital scale.

I'm a big fan of Bob and his lost foam method. I believe it's the best way to build, if you lack the ability to utilize CAD drawings, coupled with laser cutting. His method results in very accurate wings, regardless of the type of spar used.

What is being presented here is what I believe is the beginnings of our utilising what can be accomplished with the combined force of CAD and Laser cutting. In the pictures below, the pieces were not glued until they were all correctly located, but the wing became very stiff and resisted flex, because of the tight fits, and somewhat interlocking parts.

I believe that further refinements in design and construction with these techniques will continue to be made. In the future, we should continue to see light, straight and easy construction develop, to all of our benifits, as each of us designing, and utilising techniques learned from each other, increase the knowlege pool.

It's great to design and build with another knowlegable modelor. Gordan and I seem to work off of each other to the degree that we often come up with some pretty good ideas. His new shop is really nice, and I'm enjoying the experience of working with him.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

Cowboystunt1 · Oct 24, 2006 01:10 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#13 source
John,
The method you've described sounds very similar to the method Bill Sawyer is using in his Playboy Kits. He calls it Laser Locked construction but essentially it is a set of lofted ribs that key onto an I-Beam type Spar (actually a box).
My kit (which I haven't started yet but have examined), looks to be dead simple to construct and should make a very rigid I-beam type structure (which is something that I wouldn't say about conventional I-beamers).
Obviously the accuracy of laser cutting has opened up a lot of possibilities.
Actually building in the lost foam cradles may be the easiest way to accomplish the type of structure.
Has anyone tried laser cut ribs in the lost foam method??

Bob????

Randy C

gso · Oct 24, 2006 02:21 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#14 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-06 AT 09:44 PM (CST)
 
The I beam spar that John was talking about was the Playboy spar. It weighed 4.50 oz. This I beam witch we are using is lighter than most I beams spars,it is still heavier than the D-tube sheeted wings. But it does build very fast and straight like an I-beam. If you note John has be saying we in his post. So the cat`s out of the bag. My All American Eagle is just about ready to cover. Needs fillets and final sanding.

Gordy

PS. John is buiding his in my new shop.

Gordan Delaney

Cowboystunt1 · Oct 24, 2006 03:12 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#15 source
Gordon,
What happened to the idea of building a super "lightweight" Tony.
You were discussing the possibility a year and a half ago when you were measuring my GEO XL?
I've actually been waiting to hear about the progress. Get side-tracked...? I'd understand that. I do constantly.

Randy C

gso · Oct 24, 2006 06:42 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#16 source
Randy
I needed a Classic ship as my Colossus is getting worn out. Kinda like me. It`s 8 years old now. I still want to down size my Tony. That`s still in the works.

gordy

Gordan Delaney

jobellcrank · Oct 25, 2006 12:19 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#18 source
Randy, I think you're right. Basically what Gierke did was slide full type ribs onto a built up, laminated solid box spar. What we've done is remove the box spar, gone back to a true I-beam, with a simplifyed method of doing so.

The result seems to make for a lighter, though strong structure.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

Cowboystunt1 · Oct 25, 2006 12:57 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#19 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-06 AT 01:00 PM (CST)
 
Interesting John,
Are the ribs one piece or split?
Certainly shold be significantly lighter. Is it torsionally more rigid than a conventional I-beamer?

PS: How about some pictures??

Hmmmm...Forget the pictures I see they're already here. Maybe someday I'll learn to look before asking???....Probably not!

Randy C

Jim Thomerson · Oct 25, 2006 01:30 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#20 source
I think I'll stick with my understanding of the original I-beam. It is a method whereby a moderately accomplished and impatient builder with minimal tools can rather quickly build a strong, light, straight wing. Don't need no steenking lazer. (Actually, cutting out conventional ribs is not much enjoyed: hooray for lazers for that.)

TomN · Oct 29, 2006 03:39 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#21 source
John/ Gordon,

I am assuming that the spar is constant depth. Are there still plywood doublers and/or triplers in the center section?

Tom N

gso · Oct 29, 2006 09:51 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#22 source
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-06 AT 08:02 PM (CST)
 
Tom,
No there are no ply doublers any more. We put 1/64 ply doublers on two ribs and two half ribs. I did use 1/64 ply through the center section top and bottom spars about 8 inches long. These wings feel very stiff but will find out more when we fly them. That will surely tale the tale. The landing gear are removeable.

Gordy

Gordan Delaney

jobellcrank · Oct 30, 2006 12:47 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#24 source
>John/ Gordon,
>
>I am assuming that the spar is constant depth. Are there
>still plywood doublers and/or triplers in the center
>section?

Yes, the spar is constant depth. It makes for easier placement of the ribs, though with some thought and care, a tapered spar could be used, I don't believe it would be any better, or worth the effort.

We chose not to use ply doublers or triplers on these 2 planes. They could easily be used with this method, but we believe that the wing will be strong enough without them. We'll find out as soon as we start flying them won't we?

We made the gear to be removable-torsion style. I'll take some pictures next time I'm over at Gordy's so you can see what was done.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller

jobellcrank · Oct 30, 2006 12:41 PM

RE: re-discovered method for constructing I-beam wings.#23 source
>Interesting John,
>Are the ribs one piece or split?
>Certainly shold be significantly lighter. Is it torsionally
>more rigid than a conventional I-beamer?
>
>PS: How about some pictures??
>
>Hmmmm...Forget the pictures I see they're already here.
>Maybe someday I'll learn to look before
>asking???....Probably not!

Randy, Though the wing seems quite stiff when we try to flex it up and down, I don't believe there's any significant improvement in torsional stregnth over most any other method. The nmain improvement seems to be in accuracy, speed, and weight, over what has evolved over the years we've been building I-Beamers.

The ribs are one piece as shown on one of the photos. They were lofted using Compufoil, and are quite accurate.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

John Miller