Transporting Castor Oil

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 46 of 46 known posts recovered

d_khaw · Oct 18, 2006 10:14 PM

A few weeks ago, I mentioned that it was very difficult to get glow fuel in PNG. I have now managed to find a chemical company that stocks analytical grade methyl alcohol which costs around US$ 23/liter or A$ 30/liter.

The challenge now is getting Castor Oil. I can get them at the local pharmacy as medicinal oil and it is very expensive. I understand that this is refined grade castor oil and may have lost the protective qualities of some of the minerals. Is this true?

An alternative is to purchase castor oil in one of my trips overseas . But is castor oil allowed in the aircraft ?

Thanks & kind rgds
Daniel in PNG

Will Reeb · Oct 18, 2006 10:17 PM

#1 source

I don't know about Castor oil being a banned substance on aircraft, I would check with the FAA if you're going stateside.
What you're looking for is Bakers AA castor oil. Sig sells it.

Steve Helmick · Oct 18, 2006 10:37 PM

#4 source

A short while ago, they banned all fluids, of any kind, including bottled water, on commercial passenger flights, here in the USA. I think this was relaxed just a little...lipstick was allowed, and I suppose ChapStick. Otherwise, I haven't heard of much else being allowed. I suspect most countries would have a much more relaxed attitude than here, so you might be ok from Ozzie.

The reasoning behind the fluids ban, was that some fluids are dangerous, and it's easier to ban all fluids than it is to train their minimum wage security guards to look for the dangerous ones. Pretty hard to argue with the logic, considering how few HS students take Chemistry these days.

Castor oil would be an ORM-D (I think) item, meaning that if it leaks, it will be messy, but not dangerous, so you should be able to mail order it from SIG or the fuel guys in Oz (Magnum?). Synthetic oil would be a little more questionable, I think, because it probably will be listed as flamable. Regarding alcohol, you don't need a super pure grade. Shellac thinner should do just fine, if it hasn't absorbed too much of the local humidity. If it doesn't work fine, dump it into the petrol tank of the Land Cruiser.

If I was in PNG, I would search out engines that are made to run on straight alky and oil. Stalkers come to mind, and they're available from Kaz Minato in Japan, tho made in Russia or Ukraine. Possibly that could be a business trip deal. Let us know if you need contact information. Steve

Steve Helmick
Renton, Washington
USA

colinw · Oct 18, 2006 10:51 PM

#5 source

Might be worth contacting Lion/Pro-Glow to see if they will ship de-gummed Castor Oil to PNG.
http://www.tnet.com.au/~lion/Pro-Glow_Products.htm

Email address at the bottom of the page.

Re-learning control line in Brisbane, Australia.

Royde26434 · Oct 19, 2006 01:36 AM

#8 source

Steve
Fluids and jells were banned from taking on board. They were allowed in checked baggage per the standard rules of non-hazardous items. Fluids purchased inside the secured(sic)areas can now be carryed on board. I doubt a bottle of castor oil in a suitcase would cause any trouble. Before the last worlds, it was recommended that fuel tanks in models that were being shipped as baggage, be flushed with caster to clear any traces of nitro and alcohol.

Roy DeCamara

Howard Rush · Oct 18, 2006 10:20 PM

#2 source

Castor oil was allowed on airplanes in the US (I don't know the current rule). We used it to "inert" fuel tanks on airplanes we shipped by air.

Howard Rush · Oct 18, 2006 10:25 PM

#3 source

McMaster-Carr sells it. You might ask them if they ship to PNG,

http://www.mcmaster.com/

cyclone · Oct 18, 2006 10:54 PM

#6 source

The Castor we use in our fuel is degumed. Medicinal castor is not.

Jim Kraft

cfrizell · Oct 19, 2006 03:44 AM

#9 source

I doubt McMaster-Carr will ship outside USA

I ordered a special tap from them, order accepted. Then rejected because "paperwork for shipment outside USA was too compicated". This about 4 or 5 months ago.

Charles

colinw · Oct 19, 2006 04:24 AM

#10 source

What, a customs declaration?

Individuals selling on eBay or whatever manage it all the time.

Re-learning control line in Brisbane, Australia.

cfrizell · Oct 19, 2006 05:15 AM

#11 source

>What, a customs declaration?
>
>Individuals selling on eBay or whatever manage it all the
>time.

Seems so.

I had to get a friend in Boston to order it, send it to him and then he sent it on to me. It was a weird size tap for a shaft extension on a TT15 and by the time I got it here it cost almost as much as the motor.

locktite401 · Oct 19, 2006 08:01 AM

#12 source

>>What, a customs declaration?
>>
>>Individuals selling on eBay or whatever manage it all the
>>time.
>
>Seems so.
>
>I had to get a friend in Boston to order it, send it to him
>and then he sent it on to me. It was a weird size tap for a
>shaft extension on a TT15 and by the time I got it here it
>cost almost as much as the motor.

Charles,

I can't imagine any tap for a Thunder Tiger that you couldn't get much cheaper in the UK.

regards Ray

locktite401 · Oct 18, 2006 11:47 PM

#7 source

Daniel,

as you know, castor oil for model fuel ("first pressing") is easily obtained in Australia. I've checked the Australia Post web site and it looks like it would be "shipable" via "Express Courier International" if it's less than 20 kg. Just a quick glance through the AP Dangerous Goods file doesn't show up any problem. Look yourself at:

http://www.auspost.com.au/BCP/0,1080,CH4052%257EMO19,00.html

click on the link titled:

Dangerous & Prohibited Goods & Packaging Guide

It's a pdf document.

regards Ray

BillP · Oct 19, 2006 08:58 AM

#13 source

Yrs back we flew many gallons of zero nitro home brew fuel made with meth and castor from the local pharmacy. I couldn't tell the difference between Fox Superfuel castor and the pharmacy castor. Crud buildup didn't favor one or the other and the engines didn't seem to notice the difference either. Today I use Sig castor but in a pinch I wouldn't hesitate to use pharmacy castor again...it IS expensive compared to Sig castor though.

Bill

downunder · Oct 19, 2006 09:14 AM

#14 source

Daniel, you can easily get Castrol M castor from Australia.
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/castrolhomepage.do?categoryId=3000
Enter Castrol M in the search window at the top and it'll take you to the page listing it. You might check to see if there's a Castrol dealer in PNG first though. I've always bought it in the 5 litre cans but lately I'm getting it from bulk at $8 a litre. Methanol (BP A)goes for around $2 a litre here from bulk.

Fot interests's sake, you'll never see those little white flakes when using M

All castor is degummed as part of the refining process so you can't get non degummed castor.

Iskandar Taib · Oct 19, 2006 12:04 PM

#15 source

If you come by here I'll give you a couple liters or so. I have a five gallon can sitting in my car port.

I found it by calling around the industrial chemical supply houses around KL. Several had some, U.S.P./B.P. grade, not the degummed stuff people recommend. Works great so far, I've not seen any sign of varnishing. I use it to fortify the pink stuff (Omega). We even boosted some Omega to 29% oil for my friend Marcus's Fox Stunt. Worked fine, although it was messier than anything he'd ever seen before.

dirtydan · Oct 19, 2006 08:31 PM

#16 source

A bunch of us used to buy fuel ingredients from a local fellow who raced full-sized outboards. Two-strokes, of course.

In his own engines he would always run medicinal grade castor oil.

But it was nonsense and he knew it.

The only two advantages to medicinal grade castor oil are that you can safely drink it should you want to for some unknown reason, and that you can brag about how much your fuel costs to mix.

The tip concerning Castrol oil was right on, especially for someone in your situation.

Dan

colinw · Oct 19, 2006 08:38 PM

#17 source

LAST EDITED ON Oct-19-06 AT 08:39 PM (CST)

I always used to run B.P. grade castor in my diesels, and home made 75/25 or 70/25/5 fuel. I'd never even heard of de-gummed castor oil!

No problems with varnish or crud build up at all. My MAX-S .35, broken in on home made 75/25 fuel all those years ago, has compression like a new one, but turns over freely.

By all means run the superior (and more expensive) de-gummed product if you can get it. But don't be scared of running whatever ingredients you can get your hands on.

Re-learning control line in Brisbane, Australia.

Iskandar Taib · Oct 19, 2006 09:15 PM

#18 source

The USP/BP stuff was all I could get, so no choice there. Wasn't expensive - about US$40 for 17 liters (5 US gallons). Looks too much like a can of cooking oil, the sort of stuff you see in Chinese restaurants, though.

I suspect the USP/BP stuff _is_ degummed. Very hard to find any concrete evidence online. The problem with undegummed castor, I was told, was in cold weather, when the gum would precipitate out of the fuel and clog your needle. No worries on that score here, it's 29-30 degrees year round.

colinw · Oct 19, 2006 09:27 PM

#19 source

No problems with that in Queensland either

It can get cold overnight, but fuel stored in the garage would rarely drop below 20C.

Re-learning control line in Brisbane, Australia.

d_khaw · Oct 20, 2006 08:30 AM

#21 source

Gentlemen
Thank you for all the assistance and useful information. For friends downunder, I am actually in Cairns for a few days and the nearest hobby shop that stocks castor oil is 1.5 hrs away! The chemist I went to only sells 100 ml bottle size at a premium price. I have also contacted Lion Electronics in Perth and they tell me that they do not ship overseas.
I will find another source somehow. Perhaps the chemist in PNG may be able to import some for me. In the meantime, I have to start building my planes.
Kind rgds
Daniel

hothandle · Oct 20, 2006 10:23 AM

#22 source

Years ago (Late 50's)Randy Cubberly and I packed some K & B 1000 in dry ice thinking that cold fuel would give the engine more power.
We did notice white flakes floating around in the fuel when we went to use it. Managed to turn a K & B Green Head 35 to a Blackhead in one easy combat flight. We didn't know the caster would precipitate out of the fuel when it got cold. Engine ran like a striped APE for one flight.

Hothandle

G Willie · Oct 20, 2006 08:27 AM

#20 source

It is surprisi to most folks, but medical or pharmaceutical grade chen=micals are the most IMPURE of the grades. They go from chemically pure, the purest, down to technical grade, the "industrial" grade, down to medical grade. If medical grade is more expensive, it is probably due to small quantity, not purity.

Bill Mohrbacher

ama21835 · Oct 21, 2006 03:44 PM

Methanol price !!!#23 source

The methanol price you quoted is over $100 US per gallon, just for the cheapest part of the fuel.

I still think you could have fully mixed fuel shipped in less expensively.

cfrizell · Oct 21, 2006 05:30 PM

#24 source

>It is surprisi to most folks, but medical or pharmaceutical
>grade chen=micals are the most IMPURE of the grades. They
>go from chemically pure, the purest, down to technical
>grade, the "industrial" grade, down to medical grade. If
>medical grade is more expensive, it is probably due to small
>quantity, not purity.
>
>

Nope, I my opinion it's due to the horendous markups most chemists (pharmacies) use. I know that when I lived in Johannesburg most products were marked up by a factor of 10. That is, if it cost $1 it sold at $10. These huys are cruel!

(OK now I duck while the closet pharmacists defend themselves)

Charles

pcoopy · Oct 21, 2006 06:58 PM

#25 source

LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-06 AT 07:23 PM (CST)

Don't know about methanol but if you have guys who race motorcycles around there, they use a product by KLOTZ called BeNOL..it is castor oil. This is not listed as BakersAA but I have been using it for years by the quart and it works just fine. It lists glow engine use on the bottle. In fact, some of the model suppliers carry it.

Phil AMA609

Phil Coopy AMA609

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

SRiese5283 · Oct 21, 2006 07:36 PM

#26 source

http://importer.alibaba.com/buyeroffers/Castor_Oil.html

MAYBE? Try this

Scott Riese

Iskandar Taib · Oct 21, 2006 11:19 PM

#27 source

Hahahaha.. if only buying stuff off alibaba.com were that easy. Check this out:

http://baoyuan.en.alibaba.com/product/50028061/51166735/Organic_Intermediate/Nitromethane.html

[photo not recovered: Nitromethane.jpg]

(Actually, that Castor Oil link was for sellers.. this one's for buyers:

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?IndexArea=offer_en&SearchText=castor+oil

[photo not recovered: 10958431.jpg]

Interesting.. an animated JPG. I thought these had to be GIF.

Here's one that might sell less than container loads: http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/11275454/Castor_Oil.html

)

Dallas Hanna · Oct 22, 2006 05:37 AM

#28 source

Must agree on the Castrol M oil which should be available in most countries which stock BP fuel. Many of us here have been using it for 50 years and the quality is second to none. We pay around A$70 for 5 litres. My choice of methanol is Shell "Racing A" which is a little more expensive (over twice!!!!) than bulk straight methanol but who cares. It's worth it. At least when we mix our own brew we can be sure of the content of it.

warren_lead · Oct 22, 2006 06:21 AM

#29 source

Hi Herb,

Where can I get some Castrol M? I'm just about run out of it.

Cheers

Warren Leadbeatter
Sydney, Oz
AUS-14782

Dallas Hanna · Oct 22, 2006 06:37 AM

#30 source

Jack Simpson Fuel Supplies at Oakville usually has it in stock. Give them a call to make sure before you go there.

Jack Simpson Fuel Suppliers Pty Ltd
300 Saunders Rd Oakville 2765 (02) 4572 3113
225 Saunders Rd Oakville 2765 (02) 4572 3131

locktite401 · Oct 22, 2006 09:09 AM

#31 source

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-06 AT 02:58 AM (CST)

>Jack Simpson Fuel Supplies at Oakville usually has it in
>stock. Give them a call to make sure before you go there.
>
>Jack Simpson Fuel Suppliers Pty Ltd
>300 Saunders Rd Oakville 2765 (02) 4572 3113
>225 Saunders Rd Oakville 2765 (02) 4572 3131
>
>
>HH

Herb,

rumour has it that Castrol is discontinuing Castrol M.

regards Ray

Iskandar Taib · Oct 22, 2006 02:38 PM

#32 source

Wish I could get Castrol M here. No luck. So I have to settle for the USP/BP stuff.

Dallas Hanna · Oct 22, 2006 08:14 PM

#33 source

According to Castrol here in Sydney 5 minutes ago, that is just a rumour and is still available in 5 litre and 200 litre quantities. The technical staff's slant on this is "why delete a good selling product from the line". They have had two calls on the subject in the last couple of days and believe that it has been started by some opposition supplier of oils whether castor or synthetic.

locktite401 · Oct 22, 2006 08:35 PM

#34 source

>According to Castrol here in Sydney 5 minutes ago, that is
>just a rumour and is still available in 5 litre and 200
>litre quantities. The technical staff's slant on this is
>"why delete a good selling product from the line". They
>have had two calls on the subject in the last couple of days
>and believe that it has been started by some opposition
>supplier of oils whether castor or synthetic.
>
>HH

The story came from Europe, it may be that the decision has been made there and that it hasn't filtered down to our agents yet.

regards Ray

Lukesp · Oct 23, 2006 12:04 AM

#35 source

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-06 AT 00:14 AM (CST)

Has anyone here ever tried Shell's castor ? I can't remember it's name, Shell XM-100, or something ? I ran it years ago and it worked fine without problems, but it stinks. Smells like burnt hair. Castrol M has the sweet castor smell though.

Just had a search on Shell's site and no mention of it. I guess they discontinued it.

Luke.

Dallas Hanna · Oct 23, 2006 07:58 AM

#36 source

Was used quite a bit by some here in the 70s. John Tidey near cleared the field at times with the smell! Shell are now marketing "Racing M" which is labelled "castor/synthetic". I tried it earlier in the year and as well as causing unreliable runs, there was a reddish stain left on the model. The content varied from 15-20% with the same result. Back to Castrol M and back on tune.

Lukesp · Oct 23, 2006 09:01 AM

#37 source

Well, I tried one bottle of the stuff and the smell alone drove me back to Castrol M. I can't say it caused any problems for me, but that was some years back.

Luke

Dallas Hanna · Oct 23, 2006 03:12 PM

#38 source

the old Shell "M" and the newer Shell "Racing M" are totally different oils.

colinw · Oct 23, 2006 06:04 PM

#39 source

LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-06 AT 06:23 PM (CST)

'Burning hair' smell sounds like high Sulphur content to me. I believe the characteristic smell of burning hair is caused by the sulphur content of keratin.

Daniel, I just noticed that the R/C Warehouse in Brisbane (well, almost Brisbane - Logan City) stock SIG fuels and SIG castor. Could be worth seeing if they will ship to PNG. Doubt they'll ship fuel, but the oil should be ok.

R/C Warehouse: http://www.rcwarehouse.com.au/

All Fuels:
http://www.rcwarehouse.com.au/search/results/?srchtype=AdvSearch&srchcat=MF

SIG Castor in pint bottles. This would be a US pint (473ml), not an Imperial pint (568 ml).
http://www.rcwarehouse.com.au/products/productinfo.php?prod_id=SIGCO001

Re-learning control line in Brisbane, Australia.

d_khaw · Oct 24, 2006 09:12 AM

#41 source

Hi Colin
Thank you for the helpful info on R/C warehouse in Logan city. I was there a few weeks ago when I was in Brisbane . The helpful sales staff told me that they did not ship fuels out but I did not ask about castor oil. I will follow up on this.
Kind rgds
Daniel

cfrizell · Oct 23, 2006 06:23 PM

#40 source

I just Googled "Castrol M" - and one of the things it came up with was that Castrol were exoperimenting with palm oil (1995)

Maybe that explains the "weird" smelling oil?

Charles

Iskandar Taib · Oct 24, 2006 11:39 AM

#42 source

Wasn't the weird smelling oil from Shell?

Wish palm oil worked - plenty of that around here. I doubt it'll dissolve in methanol.

cfrizell · Oct 24, 2006 05:25 PM

#43 source

Try it.

As it's a vegetable oil I'd give you even odds it will disolve in methanol

Charles

Lukesp · Oct 25, 2006 09:04 AM

#44 source

Charles,

the weird burnt hair smell was with Shell M, not Castrol M.

I too think palm oil might dissolve in methanol. When I was in the Solomon Islands there was some development via the university of Queensland re adding coconut oil to outboard fuel. Not methanol, sure, but interesting all the same. The idea being to extend the fuel for the islanders and cut costs. Unfortunately my recollections are rather vague, this was back in 1993 and I was holidaying.

Iskandar Taib · Oct 25, 2006 01:01 PM

#45 source

Most vegetable oils don't. The only ones that will that I've heard of are castor and soybean oils. Castor does it because Ricinoleic Acid has a -OH group halfway down the chain, therefore making it attractive to alcohols such as methanol. The castor oil molecule has three of these connected to one glycerine molecule at the end.

Check out Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castor_oil

Not sure why soybean oil dissolves, I did hear Howard Rush and his buddies tried it in Combat engines back in the 70s or so and didn't like the results.