Gieske Nobler Airfoil?

Are the wing airfoil sections for the Gieske Nobler the same as for the standard Nobler? In other words, were the only changes made by Bob to the fuselage moments and styling? Or, did the wing airfoil also change?

Thanks for the collective wisdom!

According to various writeups on this model, they are a little thicker.

The story went something like this...Bob traced the outlines of the original N. ribs with a pen, thereby making them a little fatter.

Actually,
What Bob told me on the phone several years ago was that he traced the outline of the original Nobler including the planking and cap strips, then used that for the rib outline and added sheeting and caps. That would make the airfoil, nominally about .125 inch thicker on the G. Nobler.

But which airfoil did Bob Gieseke trace?
I understand the Brodak Nobler uses an airfoil traced by George Aldrich from his original wrecked plane. The Top Flite one is different. I think the magazine published one was a third version.
I believe George said at least one was drawn from memory. I remember George saying (on video) that the original had a thinner airfoil than he remembered.

If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.

I think Bob Gieseke was building Top Flite green box kits, and probably used that rib with planking and caps strips to out line a rib template.
I have a UHP kit of the 1968 Gieseke Nobler and it is available. Steve Moon also had rib sets available at VSC a couple of years ago. He is a good contact for accurate Gieseke Nobler stuff as he worked with Bob on making the kit as genuine as possible to the '68 ship.
Chris...

George and Chris,

Chris is right it was the Top Flite Green box Nobler that Bob G. traced.

I have built G. Noblers from the Top Flite kit, from Paul Tupkers plans of Bob's World airplane, and from the Moon's kit (Ultra Hobby Products). Which by the way is a good kit with excellent wood.
While there are small differences in all (like rudder shape and location), the airfoil and wing in all of them are alike.
Bob also told me on the phone that he had built many variations of the Nobler insofar as flap size tail moment, rudder shape, etc. prior to 1970 (Classic cut-off date).
If memory serves me, He said the picture on the Top Flite box was of his 69 Nats plane.

>But which airfoil did Bob Gieseke trace?
>I understand the Brodak Nobler uses an airfoil traced by
>George Aldrich from his original wrecked plane. The Top
>Flite one is different. I think the magazine published one
>was a third version.
>I believe George said at least one was drawn from memory. I
>remember George saying (on video) that the original had a
>thinner airfoil than he remembered.
>
>If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.
>
>George

Actually he drew the MAN plan and the Top Flite (Green box) plan from memory, since both times he was quite a distance away from where the airplane was. I find it fascinating that he was able to remember as accurately as he did the various measurments and components. Later on he drew the "authentic" plan measuring off of the various components of his crashed original. I have this plane as well as the MAN and original Green Box Nobler kit plan and updated (CAD drawn) plan of the Green Box Nobler. Although there are slight differences and variations between all of these, as I said, it amazes me that he was able to draw from memory as accurately as he did.

And, yes, the ribs on the Gieseke Nobler were drawn by simply enlarging around the original (Green Box) outlines. From year to year Bob would do slight modifications to this design, but would occasionally go back to an earlier wing (sometimes using an earlier wing) or something. As he said once, while talking about the various changes he made through the years, "I don't know if I ever improved it." The moral of the story is, sometimes we make changes that don't mean a thing.

I have unbuilt Gieske original kit- I have been tracing the rib patterns with goal of making a "replica kit" but with improved wood.
Next is to trace the fuselage outline.
If anyone has tracing of original Nobler airfoil and is interested I can provide rib tracing og the Gieske and we can compare.
Lyle

Lyle,
I think you'll find that the Original Nobler (52) is thinner than the Green Box (57), and the green box is thinner than the G. Nobler.

>...the Original Nobler (52) is thinner than the Green Box (57), and the green box is thinner than the G. Nobler.
====================================================================

True. And if you want an authentic G-Nobler kit, contact Steve Moon at Ultra Hobby Products. As noted above, this one is outstanding.

Bob used to say that his airfoil was the same as the Green Box kit EXCEPT that it was thicker "by the width of a ball point pen" The plans that he gave many of us at the '69 St Louis team trials actually had that note on them.

Unfortunately I lent the plan to someone who later admitted that he cut up the plan to make patterns.. needless to say I was not happy about that. When I moved to Dallas, Bob told me that he no longer has any copies, not even for himself.

I have never understood why people do that, since it is so easy to use tracing paper.

Interesting discussion and great information. Thanks to all.

I wonder whether in kitting the G-Nobler, Top Flight made new dies for the thicker wing ribs used by Bob? Or, if they just used the same rib set as the regular Nobler. I suspect they did the latter -just dropped in a Nobler set which would have been quick and easy.

David,
This is not true.
I have original kits for both the green box and the G. Nobler and the ribs of the G. nobler kit are thicker, exactly as i stated above.

If the Top Flite G-Nobler was based on the 69 plane.... then wouldn't that make the Top Flite kit classic legal? (here's hoping)

Will,
Even though the kit didn't come out until later, I see no reason why the kit wouldn't be legal for Classic.
Some people seem to get "funny" ideas about this stuff, but I doubt if anyone could define any differences that matter in any of the versions around.

I might be wrong, but I think the rudder was taller on Bob's earlier G-Noblers. With that said, the Top Flight G-Nobler is generally accepted in Classic events.

Hope this helps. We posted this some time back but can't trace it.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-06 AT 09:52 AM (CST)
 
Acording to Bob, the kit that came outin the 70's had a shorter wing, a less tall fuse and a cowl that was not the way he did his. I used the kit and added span and measurements that Bob provided. Very easy change to use the kit and classic legal at that point.

Dallas,
Are these the sketches that Paul Tupker used to make his plans?
Tupkers plans are available from Tom Dixon.

Not sure on whether Paul Tupker used them. This plan was brought back from the US Nats of 1975 by fellow OZ flyer, Ray Ogle.

Dallas,
Well, probably not...The date on my Paul Tupker Plans is 1972.
They do look remarkably like the sketches you showed however.
They are, of course, very nicely and professionally done.
Very similar to the UHP kit except for the taller rudder and slightly different shape cowling (which is of no consequence).

Once again, I could be wrong but...I believe the ORIGINAL Nobler was a '51. The open cockpit, open engine (no cowling) version. The '52 version was the "whitenose special" published in MAN. The Nats winner. Then the '57 "greenbox", followed by the later version of the the G' Nobler. Note that the plans (I believe) are dated 1973. For the "skinny" on the '68 World champ model see the July 1971 "Aerobatics" column by Wynn Paul. Just where the Brodak version fits in this chain, I don't know. Perhaps between the open engine, and the Whitenose special...

Attempted putting up a pic of the open first version, but keep getting "script error" ...I give up!

Hi Randy. Even though these plans came to me in 75, they would have been around much before that. I think that someone confirmed that they were Bob Gs drawings. There is a line drawn on the fin showing the shorter one. It was most likely that Paul Tupker had a copy to draw his plans.

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-06 AT 02:24 PM (CST)
 
Time to chime in from the Low Lands

About a month ago there was also some discussion on our national forum (could give you the URL, but it's all in dutch...) about the set of 3 Nobler plans that Paul made in the seventies.
So I decide to ask him to know firsthand what he did.
Here's a partial translation of his reply, concerning the Gieseke Nobler:

I received a pencil drawn plan from Bob, that I copied exactly in ink. I sent a copy to Bob and I think it was the basis for the TF kit.
The fuse top and bottom were drawn as hollowed blocks, something I think won’t have been the way it was done in the kit. Probably formers and planking, but I never have seen a kit myself so I don’t know this.

We're lucky to have most of the generation that introduced F2B flying in the Netherlands (and thereby to me) still with us.
Louis van den Hout is still very active as a judge and we try to lure him into refinishing one of his former matchwinners, take it out and fly again.
Paul Tupker is still designing (most RC models nowadays) and is always present at our bi-annual CL meeting, helping wherever needed.
Bert Metkemeijer is an active Pylon race pilot now, but always attends the Dutch nats with a stunter.
His brother Rob really got back into it last year, even to the point that he joined Henk and me in the national team!
Last week I spoke (after a 38 years hiatus) to Wim Cator who was one of the first in the Netherlands to use a .49 Merco. He still has all stuff including original plans of his 'Plano'. Alan Brickhaus is working on some of these dutch classics, so you'll hear from him when things are ready.
Sadly, ace-pilot Henk Twerda died many years ago.

Paul, way back in the seventies:
[photo not recovered: pjtbjvhqv5.jpg]

Then there was this happy, young dutch flyer with his personal view on the 3 versions on the Tupker plans:
[photo not recovered: sel78.jpg]

'If you think there's something about my English, you're right. I'm Dutch....'
But I DO play Stunt and I DO fly Bluegrass.

Bruno,
Thanks for sharing the information and the photos with us.
I haven't had the pleasure of meeting the gentlemen you mentioned but certainly know their names as if they were friends.
Thanks again.

Dallas,

Yes, that is Bob's drawing, that I referred to. I got mine from Bob at the 1969 St Louis team trial. (I was a judge that year).

It is amazing that we have to go to OZ and the Netherlands to see them

It just proves that we are just one great big happy family!