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Cornstarch, Hinges, and Archives

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Larry F · Dec 26, 2000 08:45 AM

#0 source
Gang --

In the "talc" thread, sounded like cornstarch was at least as good, maybe better than talc. Question, is can you use the same materials and mix the cornstarch with unthinned clear dope to make a filler paste? Seems like we did something like that with talc. Maybe even mixed in a little white glue. Something easy to sand, a mild gap filler, and making small fillets.

What is your favorite pretty and substantial hinge setup? Ideally, seems like they should be installed after the final finish. Am I dreaming, or do some of the mechanical / strip hinges make that possible?

Finally, I had some trouble finding the old "talc" thread. Looks the secret is to not click on the "archive" button when doing a search, even if the thread has rolled off the bottom because of the date. Any other hints on searches?

Larry F

Jake · Dec 26, 2000 08:57 AM

#1 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-00 AT 08:58 AM (EST)

The cornstarch works great, since it is just cellulose, like the base of the dope itself is. Just mix it in the clear until you get the thickness you want.
GMA uses it, and told me Bob Palmer taught the the technique to him many years ago. Works for the greats, it's good enough for me.

J

LNeumann · Dec 26, 2000 09:05 AM

#2 source
To do your search on Talc (or starch):

Keyword(s): Talc (or starch)
*Search Which Forum(s)? Main Discussion Group (Public)
Search which field(s)? All
**Search how many days in the past? All
Search the Archive? (Check mark)

Then you get all--and it is not too long yet. If you skit the archive, you will get three hits from the current listings.

On hinges, we use DuBro barrel hinges and don't glue them in until after the finishing process. Makes finishing easier. They end up looking better.

Never tried corn starch. Never tried it! As for using dope and talc or starch for small fillets or filling gaps, I think you are opening the door to cracks later on. This is a good grain filler to provide a smooth base for your finish, but you shouldn't use the finish, itself, as structure (which you would be doing by mixing dope and either talc or starch for small fillets or gap filling.) There are better products to use for this that are epoxy based.

Leonard Neumann

Randy · Dec 26, 2000 11:48 PM

#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-27-00 AT 00:02 AM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-00 AT 11:52 PM (EST)

Be sure, if you use talc, to get REAL talc. You can get this from places like Tap Plastics. I tried cornstarch once, but didn't care much for it. Worked fine, but gave someting of a grainy feel (Just my opinion). The talc you get at the grocery store is usually baby power or similar and has scents in it. I had some trouble with binding on a plane that I blamed on the stuff not talc in the mixture. Since I went to real, plain talc, haven't havd a problem.

Fillets can be a lot of different materials from epoxy based like Epoxolite and Aeropoxy as Len suggested to leather (yes, leather) to microballons and dope or straight epoxy. I tried some microballon stuff I got from Aerospace Composites mixed with epoxy on my last plane and it worked great. I'm trying some stuff suggested by Phil Granderson that I got from Tap Plastics on the current plane. It's a sort of soft Bondo, but sets very, very fast, so the working time is limited. Just remember to keep the filets a reasonable size.

Hey Len, are the hinges you describe the gray, sealed, pin jobs? I tried these a couple of planes ago and really like them. They are going in the current project. A bit tricky to align and center, but very neat.

Randy

LNeumann · Dec 27, 2000 08:14 AM

#4 source
The ones we have been using are more of a clear plastic, but, yes, the pins are permanently installed. What we like to do is put a 45 degree taper on the back side of the wing and front side of the flap (same with stabilizer and elevator) where the "crease" comes right in the middle on the center line. (It thus tapers top and bottom to a sharp edge). You can simply glue quarter inch triangle stock to the back of your wing and front of your flap if you want. We did that at first, but Matt has now made a "tool" out of plywood with sandpaper attached by which he can sand it in.

Either method allows you to get an absolute straight edge down the wing, and it allows you to fit the surfaces accurately and right next to one another so there is no binding and no gaps. I know I will get gasps from some when I say this, but done right, you don't even have to seal your hinge lines. And if you do, it is very easy with the flat edges this way.

The hinge slots are then cut right in the center of this edge strip--right at the point. It is easy to hit, again, easy to do. Matt has gone exotic and now has a hinge slotting machine, but a simple slot cutter with an Xacto knife works well--just a little slower.

Now, for alignment: Cut a notch for the barrels of the hinges half way into each surface (halfway into the wing, halfway into the flap) so the hinge line is directly on the "point" of that edge. Cut, fit everything, then wait and finish the plane completely before putting in the hinges.

Once the plane is finished, you can epoxy the hinges into the wing first using slow cure glue. Put a little oil or Vaseline on the barrel, put epoxy on the hinge, and slide each one in its slot. Then use a straight edge and hold it against all of the barrels at once, making sure that each is touching the straight edge and that they are square against it. While you are doing this, you need to hold the straight edge with a gap equal to half of the thickness of the barrel on the hinges. You can tape a couple of thin spaceers down the wing between the hinges to help in setting this gap. Once all of the hinges are lined up on one side of the wing, do the other side and let them cure. Now you can apply glue to the other side of each hinge and slide the flap on right up to that fine edge (with the spacers now removed.) You will end up with a perfect hinge line, no gaps, no binding, no sweat.

And those 45 degree angles you sanded in the wing and flap make it easy to clean the hinge line when you are cleaning up the plane. It just seems to us to make sense all the way around. Ideally, you want to fit the controls so that they will drop, naturally, on their own when at rest. This means careful fitting of the pushrods in the horns and belcrank as well. But, any binding here, will come back to haunt you later on.

Leonard Neumann

Eggbert · Dec 27, 2000 09:44 PM

#5 source
I tried cornstarch once (many years ago) and my advice is forget it. It sets up extremely hard and is horrendously difficult to sand. Try some on a test piece before you even consider painting your model with it.

Eggbert

Bob Reeves · Dec 28, 2000 05:52 PM

#6 source
Interesting, I just did a plane with cornstarch instead of talc and loved it.. Used Brodak dope thined 50/50 and just poured in the cornstarch till it seemed right.. Sanded great..

Bob

Randy · Dec 29, 2000 10:13 PM

#7 source
Len,

I'm using a sort of socketed flap and elevator. Slot in the wing that accepts the control surface. No need to seal the hinge line if done accurately.

Randy

LNeumann · Dec 29, 2000 10:34 PM

#8 source
OK, one more dumb question here: Is the flap a part of the airfoil then? Rabe's experiments had shown that style of airfoil didn't produce as much lift as with a thinner flap when deflected. If not, how do you rig it?

Leonard Neumann

Larry F · Dec 31, 2000 08:25 AM

#9 source
Question on a Question. Never heard of the "Rabe" data. Do you have it as a file, or on paper?

One would suspect that at low deflection angles, a flap that is part of airfoil would produce both less increase in lift and less increase in drag than a flat one. Do the data support that? If so, seems like you would want to rig at some increased flap movement relative to the elevator.

Related to the above, do you have any data on what angles the flaps / elevator reach when Matt pops a square corner? The brake effect of flat flaps comes into play here, I am sure.

Larry F

LNeumann · Dec 31, 2000 04:08 PM

#11 source
The bit about the airfoil was in Rabe's "Go For Broke" article on his Sea Fury in AAM a number of years ago. He did airfoil tests on a number of sections with flaps deflected and attached them to his car driving both directons down a runway--sort of a "poor man's" wind tunnel. The point is, these were actual tests on true airfoils, not guesses or whatever. He documents the lift that was created by the different types and thicknesses of airfoils that he tested. The airfoil with the flap as an integral part of the airfoil generated the least amount of lift with the same amount of deflection. That data caused him to scratch a project on a plane whose wing was simply going to be too small.

We haven't done a check on Matt's latest plane based on one of Randy Smith's airfoils and moments, but we did on his previous ship and determined that he was only using about 8 degrees of measured deflection to pop the corner. In the "good old days" we used to put 30 degree stops on our planes, since beyond that you are adding additional drag far faster than you are adding additional lift. But it was a revelation to determine how little deflection is needed with modern airfoils, areas, and moments, and CGs farther back. (And light wing loading helps, too.)

Leonard Neumann

Bob Reeves · Jan 03, 2001 12:03 PM

#13 source
Larry,

I have been doing my hinge lines similar to yours but without the recess for years. I use a square wing/stab trailing edge with a rounded control surface leading edge. The hinge pin is recessed just like you describe. If built accurately this results in about 40 deg of travel with a very small gap, just enough to keep the two surfaces from rubbing. Although I have never tried sealing the hinge lines on any of my planes to see if it would improve anything I can't see that they have needed it.

Bob

Randy · Dec 31, 2000 08:23 PM

#12 source
Len,

The flap and elevator are slightly smaller total thickness than the TE of the wing and stab. The control surfaces fit into the fixed surface and the hinges (pin style) are recessed to the center of the arc in the front of the control surface. (hope that's clear). The result is a control surface that, as the TE of the control surface moves in one direction, the LE of the control surface moves the other. So, on the wing, when the flap is moved, the lifting surface of the flap is brought flush with the the lifting surface of the wing and the gap is closed.

It doesn't allow for more than about 20 degrees of deflection, but the surface is more efficent. The last plane I used this on (the Raptor), Only about 15 degrees of deflection was needed to effect a very sharp corner and the plane seemed to fly a bit smoother through the rounds than previous efforts.

It's a pain to consturct, but it works for me.

Randy

gcb · Dec 31, 2000 10:57 AM

#10 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-00 AT 10:58 AM (EST)

>Interesting, I just did a plane with cornstarch instead of talc and loved it.. Used Brodak dope thined 50/50 and just poured in the cornstarch till it seemed right.. Sanded great..
>Bob

Bob,
I used the same kind of mix and got the same results as you. In one spot, however, I needed to fill a "dip" in the balsa so I used a thick paste and got cracks. No problem, it sanded easily and I applied a second coat to fill the cracks. I think I like cornstarch better than "baby powder".
I haven't tried pure talc. And yes, I had to buy my wife a new box of cornstarch
George