Old time stunt aircraft

Hi, I'm looking to build an OTS ship this winter and I'm looking for designs and recommendations. 35 size mininum. Any ideas on where to look on the net? Seen Barry Baxters site and its great. Brodak has a few kits as well. Prefer to scratch build. Thanks in advance....Rob

Hi Rob!

Do you want to go simple, hard, obscure, best flying?

Tom Dixon has a lot of plans for you. I think there is a link here in this fourm. Our HOST also has plans.

Scott(you got the itch?)Riese

scrach built...itch...LOL

Randy, A good flyer, fairly large, nobler type, ?????

The Viking is an excellent flyer and quite straightforward to build. It may be a bit much for a .35 - I've been flying mine for over five years with an OK Super .60 on spark. The Barnstormer is also quite a flyer - perfect for a Fox .29 or .35. If you want to fly fast and make noise, try a Stuntwagon with a Fox .59. These three birds are unflapped so there is a slight points advantage should you compete. If you want really BIG, try the Little Mo. The early Nobler, although eligible (with a flaps penalty) is in my opinion, just a bit unfair in OTS.
Bob

Wow, a loaded question. Here goes. I built two Barnstormers from scratch and a third from an Walter Umland kit (formerly Golden State). RSM is putting out the Ringmaster which is OTS legal. As to a Nobler, the Brodak Nobler is the 1951 version and Tom Dixons is the 1952 version, both OTS legal and a properly broken in Fox .35 stunt will fly them just fine provided you keep the Nobler at or under 40 oz. More like 37 oz if possible and it is. The Barnstormer flys fast as did most planes from that early 50's era, with noted exceptions (Nobler) and is fun, but not in the wind. I think a .35 is too much power for it. A Humongus will need more than a .35 and is OTS legal and I have seen only scratch built ones. It all comes down to what looks good to you and only you. Get the list of plans from Leonard Newmann, Tom Dixon, John Pond Old Time Plans, and go from there. Are you a trophy hunter of just want to enjoy OTS? That will be the real deciding factor in the plane you choose. My only hard suggestion is use modern control systems, tanks, engines and props. OTS is supposed to be fun, but not a repeat of the difficulties of the era.

I believe that the Jamison Special is the best flying OTS eligible critter, followed by the Houmongous. Both are available in kits from RSM and "short kits" or plans from Tom Dixon. They both fly the full pattern well enough to perform well in Classic, too. And AMA Stunt!

See Ya

What are group opinions on Palmer's Original Smoothie and/or the Super Clown?

I will agree that the Nats Favorite (jamison) is a great flyer. I built the Guided Whistle from Tom's plans and did very well with it this year. I flew her with a Fox 35 and a Double Star muffler. The key to any Old Timer is the weight. Alot of kits out there will not come in at a great flying weight. The Guided Whistle weighed in at 35 oz and that included the tip weight and 1 oz nose weight. I would highly recommend this plane. I built the plane because one of my good friends (Tommy Luper) had one a few years back and it has the greatest lines to me. Luckly mine came out 7 oz lighter. Kept light the Fox 35 will fly it fine but you may want to use a 40 fp or a Fox 40 for extra umph. Take care, BAD ANDY

Run a search for reference to Dave Days Home Page. He has a 17-page list of OTS legal airplanes with info of wingspan and engine size. I enjoyed my Humongous with K&B 40 as much as any airplane I have had.

What about Red Reinhardt's El Diablo?? looks pretty wild, should be nice on a Fox 35. Should take only three days to build, according to the construction article by Red..(!)

Red didn't have instant glues, either. The El Diablo is a very good OTS'er, and popular around New Jersey.

See Ya

And there is the All American Senior. A very easy builder, unconventional by modern standards with a 2.5" longer inboard wing(some plans show outboard longer if designed for clockwise flight. If you intend to fly counter clockwise like most other folks nowadays, make the inboard wing the long one).Difficult ground handling, needs to be swept off the ground on launch, 100 bounces on landing might be possible with this design. Very short tail moment, light wing loading. A Fox 35(or .29) is good on it. Despite it's flaws compared to other designs, it wins a lot and has a certain charisma. I liked them when I was a kid and like them now. Kits were available from TCI hobbies, but it's easy to whack out your own.

If thinking about more serious competition, I will admit that having flown both the Jamison Special and the All American, I think you will likely score higher right away with the Jamison.

Get a copy of "Old Time Stunt Construction Drawings", compiled by Tom Morris. It is available from PAMPA or AMA. This will give you lots of scaled down plans and pictures so you can see what you might want to build. Then order plans from one of the sources listed in previous responses.
Good luck.
George

Wanta win?

The original 1952 Nobler is OTS legal and is in a class by itself. I watched Mark Bowen fly his and do well at one contest in OTS, Classic, and Expert.. all on the same day.

Here's a photo of Mark's ship - he got the plans directly from GMA and it had a very good Fox .35 in it.

[photo not recovered: 3d4b2fa95825b3bf.jpg]

LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-02 AT 09:08 PM (CDT)

IF you want to compete and would like a model that would do well as a 3 event model, the '52 Nobler, Palmer Mars (my favorite) or Palmer Smoothie (as kitted by Brodak) would be great. You do lose some points for flaps. Oh, well, getting to fly the same model in 3 events makes that acceptable. I am flying a Humongus with an LA .46. It weighs about 47 oz with the LA and Mac's Muffler, but I'm still not happy with overhead line tension. The Barnstormer is a sweet design with nostalgia for me, as my Pa had one with an O&R .29...I can still visualize it snapping the wing in half...twice. Don't cut a hole in the center sheeting so you can see the bellcrank (per the plans)! Flapless OTS models are great sport fliers for grass fields. Less wonderful for paved fields. If you build a model without flaps, build a trim tab into the outboard TE so you don't have to add an ugly "wart" later. Steve

Bob,
What do you mean the Viking might be a bit much for a 35? I fly mine with a 36. Sure it is a Mk V Combat Special (made during the lean years) but it pulls it around fine. I am sure that a more readily available Fox 40 would be a good choice as well. Brodak should have some plans available if someone is interested in building from scratch.
I would agree on the Barnstormer being a fine model as well. Seems like I saw one or two at the Nats (there was even one in the top spot with a very able pilot at the handle). The Humongous and Jamison Special also appear to be very popular.

Hofacker,
No opinion on the Smoothie, although it does look pretty-hard to give up the 10 points to such good flyers with airplanes without flaps.
I have flown 2 Super Clowns (with flaps) under Fox 35 and Veco 19 power and really enjoy them. They seem to fly best when going a little fast, 4.6-4.8 second lap times. Have not used one in a contest since 1999, but have it handy as a back-up to my Viking at all OTS events.

As you can tell, the majority opinon is build what ever floats your boat. I'm partial to Palmers Pow Wow, Veco Chief and Walter
Umland has a nice Zilch-X kit.

I am ashamed of you guys. There are 18 posts in answer to the question of a good OTS plane at the time that I am writing this, and none of you so far has mentioned the Don Still Stuka. This plane is in a class with the Nobler (I like it better) and is able to fly in OTS, Classic, and modern day. It is easier to build than the Nobler, but is a great plane to fly and a good wind plane, too. Matt has used his to win several OTS contests even giving up the 10 point no flap bonus.

Yup, that's my choice. It is a proven Nats winner in its time, and even went to the Worlds.

Leonard's right, of course. The pilot of the NATS winning Stuka? I don't recall Don Still ever won...John Lenderman did it with a Fox .35 powered Stuka. John lives in Clatskanie, Oregon and flies indoor rubber models after many years of flying FAI Free Flight, especially Wakefield. When they became F1B's, John kept flying Wakefields. Steve

>LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-02
>AT 09:08 PM (CDT)
>
>IF you want to compete and
>would like a model that
>would do well as a
>3 event model, the '52
>Nobler, Palmer Mars (my favorite)
>or Palmer Smoothie (as kitted
>by Brodak) would be great.
>You do lose some points
>for flaps. Oh, well, getting
>to fly the same model
>in 3 events makes that
>acceptable. I am flying a
>Humongus with an LA .46.
>It weighs about 47 oz
>with the LA and Mac's
>Muffler, but I'm still not
>happy with overhead line tension.
>The Barnstormer is a sweet
>design with nostalgia for me,
>as my Pa had one
>with an O&R .29...I can
>still visualize it snapping the
>wing in half...twice. Don't cut
>a hole in the center
>sheeting so you can see
>the bellcrank (per the plans)!
>Flapless OTS models are great
>sport fliers for grass fields.
>Less wonderful for paved fields.
>If you build a model
>without flaps, build a trim
>tab into the outboard TE
>so you don't have to
>add an ugly "wart" later.
>Steve

I didn't have any problem with flying your plane in the overheads!!!

Scott(you got a good plane)Riese

I'd look into a Jamison Special. I built one from Dixon plans and power it with an OS 25 FP with a blocked boost port (it weighs 34 oz.). It swings an APC 11 x 4 and I launch at @ 9500. A 35 powered JS would be great and since you like to scrach build.... I can supply pics and such when I built mine. BTW, they are great flyers too!

[photo not recovered: 3d4bff39463aba95.jpg]

Well it is obvious to me that old time will soon go the way of the regular stunt flying. just one or two basic designs that all look the same. bloodthirsty competition is coming into this event too.

Well, somehow I knew that Old Troll Floyd C wouldn't like OTS either.

Too bad. It's great fun. And yes, the competition is pretty serious, as are the rules. People just seem to love it, however, so I guess the Old Troll once again has a prune in his whiskers when it comes to knowledge of CL stunt.

Don't believe me? Ask anyone who flies OTS..

Hi Rob. Ya know, from the opinions stated and one from an absolute expert on the subject, I think it best if you took up model trains. After all OTS is no longer fun but too competitive, the planes too slick and of only two designs. I have flown OTS, fly it now and based on one "expert" opinion I will stop immediately cause he knows better, even though he does not fly in any type of competition. (his words) So, before things get dull, no fun, and all the same plane, I am going to go to free flight, indoor, paper gliders, in my front room. Wanna join me?

I prefer not to fly an OTS airplane in Classic or Advanced, although I have done it. I don't like coming over the top in the wingover and suddenly thinking, "Now which way do I go?"

Although there are several airplanes that are pretty common, in part because kits are available, a look at the airplanes flown at the VSC will reveal considerable diversity. Even if you just look at the top 5 airplanes, you will see considerable diversity. The OTS pattern is not that demanding and there are many airplanes that can be made to fly it well. Also, there are many who, like me, prefer a unique airplane/engine to a more common, perhaps better flying combination. (I still say a diesel ought to get 15 bonus points, but no one listens.)

OTS is 32 years old, and I don't see it changing much, other than more kits and plans becoming available.

Len,
I am shocked that you thought of the "Stuka" (Hee, Hee)

I guess the old Grinch (Floyd) has never been to VSC.. Just as Jim T says... The variety of OTS airplanes seen is outstanding!!! And imagine... EVERYONE there is having (forgive me) FUN!

>Len,
> I
>am shocked that you thought
>of the "Stuka" (Hee, Hee)
>
>
>I guess the old Grinch (Floyd)
>has never been to VSC..
>Just as Jim T says...
>The variety of OTS airplanes
>seen is outstanding!!! And imagine...
>EVERYONE there is having (forgive
>me) FUN!
>
>Tom Niebuhr

Yup. And since the event seems to keep growing, more people, more planes, not to mention activity at local contests, I guess it is dying out as everything else.

I built a Smoothie from a Brodak kit last year -- for various reasons it took nine months to finally get it in the air after completing it, but it flies quite well with a Double Star 40, though it still needs lots of trimming (only six flights so far, so not much time to adjust things). The only problem seems to be that I built one tip a bit crooked and it doesn't fly quite straight. Those curvy wings are a challenge, but they sure look nice.

Dave

Actually, if you look at the articles on VSC, most of the guys there fly interesting models, and only care how well they can fly them, not really attempting to win.

Yes there are one or two cutthroat competitors who come to win, and they do, but that is their problem. The rest of us have a wonderful time.

I am finally getting reliable performance out of the Baby Clown I flew this year, and plan to be there with it next year! Or something similarly interesting.

I vote for the Mars.

If you want a kit, saturn has them.
Plans are on the web sites (Berry Baxter, Dixon, Stuka, etc).

Rex

El Diablos forever! Hi Steve I'll bet you remember my blue and white El Diablo as flown at Brodak's contests for the last several years. It's a winner and then some! It is truly fun to fly any time! I was out to day flying in very strong wind and that litle bird cut through all the nasty stuff! I fly mine with a Fox 35 50th Anniversary model and really feel taht after 50 years they've got it right! IT FLIES WELL WITH A CHEAP 10x6 mas PROP. Yes I am an Old Timer but I enjoy flying very much and my El Diablo gives ME pleasure!(So does my Ringmaster)!

Hey Phil!

Regrettably I don't remember your Diablo. All I ever see you fly is that Model Air and the smoothie. I tried to get to Zambelli's contest to give you a run for your money in advanced, but wife logistics ended that effort.(!)
I've got the plans for the Diablo at home, it looks deliciously crude, which means it is light and will fly well. If I could build it quickly, I'd do it just to have one, even if I don't fly OTS!
Hope that Brodak 40 you are testing runs good!

I can't do my Still Stuka justice, but it does fly well.

And looks great in the air. Currell

rsm has some great old tyme kits

Hi,

I like Bob's idea about the Viking and the Barnstromer, they are both legal for OTS on both coasts - The Jamison and Humongous are not. The viking is a good match for one of Len Neumanns OS .35 or Tiger .36 Modifications. A TT or OS .25 would work good on a Barnstormer.