15 size planes/kits

LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-02 AT 01:16 PM (CDT)

I am putting this post out here to see what kind of interest there is in 15 sized planes and kits. I have recently built a 15 size Keith Rider Firecracker that is an adaptation of an RC kit that Tank's Hangar (formerly AJT Laser) is considering putting out. The plane is fun to fly, though it; of course, will probably never be contest worthy.

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforum/User_files/3d555507104a7617

I also recently purchased the latest issue of RC AirWorld magazine in Japan (they have a CL column every month, as well) and noticed that Kaz Minato has teamed up with Hirobo (one of the large Japanese model cos.) to produce a line of 15 size CL ARFs. The planes are designed for beginners, but look great . They look to be built very well. They come in four main pieces: fuselage, wing, rudder, stab & elevators. The article says they take only 2 - 3 hours to build. There are three different planes; a Cap 232, Extra 300, and Sukhoi 31. I've already ordered one of each. I also bought a laser cut Blue Max 15 on one of my previous trips to Japan. Wow, what a cool little kit!

We have been considering doing a line of 15 size kits at Ultra Hobby Products; but we are unsure of the marketplace. Is there any interest in planes of this size? We are considering both profile and built-up fuse planes. I really enjoy building and flying planes of this size. I'd like to here from y'all (great Texas word) out there and see what you think.

Thanks, Steve

Steve, we at J & J designed a Ukey 15 that was an outstanding trainer and a great stunter. It remains one of my favorite planes to fly. However, the sales on the 15 were so low that we dropped it from the line. Perhaps there is a place for the 15's but we couldn't hit it. I am so happy that somebody has taken up the gauntlet and wish the folks in Japan the greatest success. My thoughts only, perhaps Floyd has a better solution.

In my haste I forgot to mention that I hope Ultra Hobbies does well with their attempts at a 15 sized plane as well.(just too many senior moments lately!)

It would definitely be nice to have some currently manufactured kits available for .15s. I have 6 - 15s sitting around doing nothing at the moment. A good place to start might be with nostalgia designs like the Magician .15. One model that deserved to be kitted was Scarinzis Lil Dynamite. It was a fantastic flyer and I built several of them way back when. Wild Bill's F/A 400 might be another design to consider.

I have a couple of Norvel 15s and a bunch of plans for them. I sure would be interested in more. For those of us without workshops, the 15 size plane is perfect.

Bob from Shalimar, Florida

A profile kit for 15 powered carrier might prove interesting. This is an unofficial event, but can be a lot of fun. The rules are quite simple. No moving parts except the elevator, throttle and tail hook. It does not have to be scale and gets no extra point for going more than 70 mph. There have been a few plans published in the last several years. A scale profile would be interesting. With about 200 sq inches or more, these would make a neat sport plane, fun to fly with touch and go landings and could do probably do some soft wingovers and big loops.

Just a thought.

I would be very interested in a kit similar to a Blue Max 15.

Actually Id love to see anything available for this size motor. They are cheap to own and operate. I wouldn't worry about making it look like any of the older stuff. That's been done to death. Use a new sheet of paper and help create some new memories, not a rehash of old ones. Besides motors are better then then the old ones and really need something a little bigger then the older designs. Dennis

I agree with Keith. I'd love to try the Knight's .15 Carrier event but I'm a little time-challenged. A suitable high quality kit would get me goin'. That little O.S. .15 CV-A (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p.pgm?Q=1&I=LXXD72&P=0) might be a perfect engine.
Steve, why not take some prepaid orders and import some of the .15 ARFs? I'll buy a couple.
Derek Moran

I would be a customer. I enjoy flying my Jr Streaks and Ringmasters. I also have an E-1 Eindecker that someone scratch built, and I built a Vickers Wellesley for an Enya .09 (or is it an OS)?

They have advantages. .09s and .15s are quieter, especially with muffler. They "bounce" better, and you can carry about 10 to the flying field in a station wagon.

Traditionally, the Japanese have kitted some really neat little full fuse stunters. The ribs, etc are band cut for you. Unfortunately, they use some sort of mystery plywood for the fuse sides, and come out heavy. You need to substitute.

I'd like to learn more about these recently designed Japanese kits, and where you can get them.

I would not get my hopes up. I like 15 size planes a lot as I have said many times, but there is not much reason for anybody to make such a kit. I have often voiced my support for these little planes to guys who make these kinds of things and the response is always that they don't sell well. Actually one man told me they dont sell at all. Also any kit of a particular complexity takes about the same amount of time and money to produce the plans and parts whether its small or big, but the small one brings in less profit even if somebody will buy it. And if your plane is not good for some kind of contest then that is a big strike against it. People will talk all this stuff about liking it but wait until it comes out and you'll see. Like I say, don't get your hopes up. CL is so small a market to begin with that when you start talking about planes that do not have really big appeal, you could practically count the anticipated sales on your hands.

I, too would love to see more kits or ARFs available for the .15 size engine. I have a Sig Akromaster and a jr. Magician profile in this size and are a blast to fly. But I agree with denlip, the newer engines are far better than their old heavy predecessors, lets get into the 21st century with some new planes and have something new to BS about and leave the past behind. crash

>I would not get my hopes
>up. I like 15
>size planes a lot as
>I have said many times,
>but there is not much
>reason for anybody to make
>such a kit. I
>have often voiced my support
>for these little planes to
>guys who make these kinds
>of things and the response
>is always that they don't
>sell well. Actually one
>man told me they dont
>sell at all. Also
>any kit of a particular
>complexity takes about the same
>amount of time and money
>to produce the plans and
>parts whether its small or
>big, but the small one
>brings in less profit even
>if somebody will buy it.
> And if your plane
>is not good for some
>kind of contest then that
>is a big strike against
>it. People will talk all
>this stuff about liking it
>but wait until it comes
>out and you'll see.
>Like I say, don't get
>your hopes up. CL
>is so small a market
>to begin with that when
>you start talking about planes
>that do not have really
>big appeal, you could practically
>count the anticipated sales on
>your hands.

I can't believe this, but for once I totally agree with Floyd. We have been there, done that, and have learned our lesson. I also agree that the modern 15's are way ahead of he older 15's and in one case that I am aware of, a gentleman from the Seattle area is flying an ElDioblo with a 15! Our Ukey 15 had a 300 sq in wing and a Fox BB, a Mecoa 15 and an ASP 15 were not too much power for it.

I have a couple of Norvel .15's (Jr. F.S. and an Akromaster). I would tend to go along with the suggestion to become the importer of the neat little Japanese ships, so as to seed the market, so to speak, without committing to actually getting your own kit out.

I'd enjoy seeing more 15 size choices. For me its a good size to introduce young people to flying c/l. My 9 year old son likes to come flying and its been a small challenge to find the right airplane for him, especially when he started a couple of seasons ago. 049s were too wind sensitive. .35-.40 planes were too big and pulled too much. Joe, we've got a 15 ukey and its Matthew's favorite plane. Sorry they weren't a commercial success for you, wish I could get a couple more. Brodak's Flite Streak Trainer has been a good plane for basic learning. Steve, I'd probably buy a few .15 ARF stunt trainers. My workshop time is limited, and if I can save a few hours on my kid's planes by buying arfs, I might be able to work on my own stuff once in a while.

-Jerry Eichten

Jerry's post, along with those of others, points to a direction which might benefit CL in general, sport/stunt in particular.

The RC business is definitely going the ARF route, for any number of reasons. Obviously, stunt, the premier CL event, and the one we all are most interested in, doesn't lend itself per se to ARF's, but it (the ARF concept) might be just the ticket for entry-level CL, particularly in the .15 size.

Hi Steve. I have read all the posts answering your query and must agree on the fact that there is no real market out there for a .15/.19 size plane. An ARF, imported might be the best way to go and be a better business deal for you. I have two .15 size trainers I am assembling for my grandson, a Flite Steak Trainer and a Guillows Profile Trainer. I am actually using the originals to make copies and using better, lighter wood. I would prefer a foam wing for these. Easier and quicker to repair and build. I know of very few beginners (read adult) out there that would want to start on a .15 size plane. Not enough youngsters to justify all the hassle of designing and producing one. The existing kits in this size probably don't sell all that well and an inquirey to Brodaks or SIG might confirm this. That is if they would tell you this information.
Most fathers would just as soon use a kit or make one for their son. I did this many years ago. The kit was a Flite Streak Trainer. Still around, still does the job.

Thanks to everyone for their well thought out inputs. I have been e-mailing Kaz Minato frequently inquiring about his ARFs, and have already ordered three of them. If they prove to be of high quality (which I have no doubt they will be; as all of his products are) I will see about working out some kind of arrange ment between him and Ultra Hobbies.

I have also done some designing, and currently have one being laser cut. It is a downsized version of a modern competition stunter, and Kyle says it will be a breeze to cut.

Also, as far as the modern Japanese kits are concerned; they are nothing like what was produced many years ago. They have quality balsa, many are laser cut, and usually include wheels and a tank, in addition to all the normal hardware.

Thanks again, Steve

>I have also done some designing,
>and currently have one being
>laser cut. It is a
>downsized version of a modern
>competition stunter,

This I would love to see! I'm purely a 10/15 man at the moment (although I'm going to move up shortly) and I'd love to see a nice full-fuse competition stunter for a 10/15 engine. Currently I'm using an Akromaster and a homebrew 324 square inches profile with a PAW 15. That goes a treat, I could scan the "plan" in if you were interested. (I wouldn't get too excited though )

Hi Steve,

.15 and .19 models are my favorite size to build, transport, and fly. Too bad there aren't more designs out there! I'd especially like to see more built-up fuselage desings for .15s.
Since I did my article in Stunt News on .15 sized designs, I've learned of several more. They are out there if you hunt for them. -- Iain

Guys,

Take a look at this site. Bill is a fantastic guy and he is an asset to us all. Scroll down the page- there's also a design for a .15! I am thinking this would be a great idea for a multi-event, one plane contest.

http://www.aeromaniacs.com/Platterins.html

One of which could be this idea Peabody is going to get us going with is a mock-carrier event. One flight, set the needle for high speed- first 8 laps are timed, engine quits, set needle for low speed- 8 laps are timed, then a spot landing.

Then you could race, do a stunt pattern and finish with, you guessed it, combat.

Sounds like a plan....

I like 09-19 size airplanes, but I seldom kit build, so maybe I shouldn't comment. There is a tremendous range of performance among engines of this size, so I think a kit would have to be designed around a particular available modern 15. There are actually a lot of 15-size airplane designs, particularly if you look at the British literature from the 50's into the 60's. I'd like to see the Japanese kits imported. I'm sure there would be at least a limited market for them.

Looking at the local W-mart, there was an electric RC airplane for $30, just needed some batteries for the charger and transmitter. That needs some thinking about.

>Also, as far as the modern
>Japanese kits are concerned; they
>are nothing like what was
>produced many years ago. They
>have quality balsa, many are
>laser cut, and usually include
>wheels and a tank, in
>addition to all the normal
>hardware.

Steve: Re the old Kyosho, Pilot, Kimura and other Japanese kits of yore...

It wasn't the design, but the execution of the kits. Once again, the problem was material selection. Too much mystery plywood. But you got wheels, bellcrank, leads, eyelets, even a neat little brass tank. Everything. Hang a motor on it and fly.

Kimura had some wonderful little flapped stunter kits of around 36" span, always showing an Enya .15 or whatnot. Miniature Nobler looking things, a .15 Shark, with McFarland's AMA number yet (as I recall, anyway). Some "Team Race" styling on some, some semi-scale jobs, etc. A whole fleet.

I have a Skylark, which is no relation to the Southwick Sterling job. Sidewinder engine in a full fuse. Looks kind of like a Kenhi Cougar that took up smoking when it hit adolescence.

The instructions are a lot of fun, since they are in Japanese. You could see when they were referring to something in millimeters, and the repetition of certain words provided clues (Sort of working out the Hun's Ultra Code). But the plans are well illustrated, and you don't need the narrative. You actually got three views, which beats Veco and Sterling out, usually. And you got assembly sketches, too.

An outfit in Taiwan then copied some of the Japanese kits! These really are rough, and the materials awful. Fuse sides warped, right out of the box, no extra charge.

And if you thought the Japanese was tough to read...

...perhaps
>Floyd has a better solution.

If a man had a 15 size engine he'd be stupid not to use it!
He'd be even stupider if he put it on a plane that wasn't plain white! I would also hope a man wouldn't be stupid enough to buy a 15 size kit from Brodak because it would be way to expensive and he would just be wastin his money and at the same time be making that hobby shop in Carmichaels rich and Brodak would have to hire more people and offer more stuff to the rest of us and he would probably make this silly toy airplane hobby more popular!

If a man was to go to a contest with a 15 size engine he'd be just plain stupid. I don't know why anyone goes to contests because me and my son have alot more fun in my back yard than anybody could possibly have playing with toy airplanes at a silly contest.....

Seriously Steve,
I think a 15 size ARF would be a nice thing for the hobby. J&J had trouble selling them, but they did sell some.
My guess is because a 15 size plane would be used for a pre-teen a ukey just has no appeal to a kid, because it's UGLY. No offense Joe/Jim you guys know how I feel about this design. But cool sells to kids and the Ukey for all it's greatness is not cool looking. A cheap 15 size plane hanging in a hobby shop that looks cool would definetly sell. If it flew good as well it would sell over and over even to the older guys. Out of a dozen and a half posts on this thread how many are positive and even Floyd likes the idea.

How many Akromasters were built last year? I built two and have a third one in a box on my shelf. What does that tell you?

I think ther would be an big market for these arfs in Europe because 15 sized stuf is just about what any non competion flyer would want to fly.
ifor instant live in holland an can barely fly on 50 foot lines on our site, space is a real problem around where i am.
Also you pay ridicilous amounts of money for engines compared to on your side of the pond so any sport flyer on a reasonoble budget goes for .15 or smaller sized stuff.
And that is all i have to say about that.

brian

Well after reading this post and the replies let me put in my pennies worth, First off I'm not tring to take advantage of your post Steve, but my reply to this post is to say that with all the people I have come in contact with, whether it was when selling the kits I have made or building for guys I have found that not only is the idea of .15 size kits a good one, but people want them(or so they say). So I have been planning out my steps to prepare to make them , now I dont have ANY .15 size kits ready, I need to finish the templates first and I wont be starting on the .15 size line until after the winter. I just have to many kit orders and to many planes to build for you guys.
Now, what I've started is a .15 size warbirds series I already have two originals of the warbirds and one none warbird which I may decide to eliminate.

thank you for all the kit sales
You all have made the return of the old designs possible by the purchases that have been made

thanks and God bless

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 10:14 AM (CDT)

Well after reading this post and the replies let me put in my pennies worth, First off I'm not tring to take advantage of your post Steve, but my reply to this post is to say that with all the people I have come in contact with, whether it was when selling the kits I have made or building for guys I have found that not only is the idea of .15 size kits a good one, but people want them(or so they say). So I have been planning out my steps to prepare to make them , now I dont have ANY .15 size kits ready, I need to finish the templates first and I wont be starting on the .15 size line until after the winter. I just have to many kit orders and to many planes to build for you guys.
Now, what I've started is a .15 size warbirds series I already have two originals of the warbirds and one none warbird which I may decide to eliminate.

thank you for all the kit sales
You all have made the return of the old designs possible by the purchases that have been made

thanks and God bless

Walter Umland