15 SIZE PLANES AND KITS! PART 2! PRICE???

I see a good amount of intrest in the 15 size planes. Lots of talk about how it would be a good option and so on. In Steve's original post he menioned some stuff about products in Asia. By the way they are so far ahead of us in the modeling world in general it is almost laughable. Anyways he said this,

"I also recently purchased the latest issue of RC AirWorld magazine in Japan (they have a CL column every month, as well) and noticed that Kaz Minato has teamed up with Hirobo (one of the large Japanese model cos.) to produce a line of 15 size CL ARFs. The planes are designed for beginners, but look great . They look to be built very well. They come in four main pieces: fuselage, wing, rudder, stab & elevators. The article says they take only 2 - 3 hours to build. There are three different planes; a Cap 232, Extra 300, and Sukhoi 31. I've already ordered one of each. I also bought a laser cut Blue Max 15 on one of my previous trips to Japan. Wow, what a cool little kit!"

These ARFs have full lettering detail and paint schemes of the real aircraft. They are so cool. They also have an entire section of the magazine on RC Racing and these are all scale Reno racers with all 4s motors. Real cool stuff!!! Almost all of their stuff is laser cut. There really isnt a choice anymore. There hardware that comes from companies like Tetra is unbeatable. There is so much detail in the available hardware. It amazing. Cost is very comparable to what we pay for DuBro nylon stuff. They have machined aluminum at every turn. It is amazing the stuff they have.

This is my question to you 15 size guys. These planes mentioned above are about 80-100$ US. Are you willing to pay that for the 15 size planes. Laser cut kits of a 15 sizer could be around 80$ give or take a few bucks. The arf is around 100$ give or a take few bucks. Is this to much? Please be honest. What is the right price for the 15 size stunter kit and ARF? What does the price need to be to keep the market interested in buying?

Myself, personnely, if I wanted one I would buy one, price would not be that much of a factor. As you know cl flyers tend to
be concerned about cost "cheap" and sometimes can't understand
why stuff has to cost so much, at times me included. When the Magnum first came out I called sig to order one and got Hazel,
I thanked her for making the kit,how was it selling? She said
the sales were rather disappointing as they had only sold not quite 1000 of them. It depends on how dast you could get themand how many you would have to stock.

I think that those prices would be a problem for me. I am building .15 because of the cost versus 35-40s And they fit my bedroom workshop better.

Bob from Shalimar, Florida

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 01:10 PM (CDT)

Some pictures from Kaz Minato's web site:

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[photo not recovered: 3d5be94451c8233f.jpg]

The price seems reasonable to me if you compare with RC ARF's.
I would buy one, as my building time is very limited.

Steve. If you're considering something like the Schoenfeldt Firecracker as shown at the Tanks site then that price would be very reasonable. If you're thinking of something like a modern update of a profile 15 along the lines of the Sig Akromaster then 80 bucks is going to be a big lump for folks to swallow. Even though your product would be vastly better than anything from Sig or Estes it would inevitably be compared to their offerings by relatively inexperienced modelers. They might well not know that an Ultrahobby product would make those planes seem like pigs in every respect. It's a tough nut to crack. Personally I'd like to see sharp looking laser-cut profiles with modern numbers sized specifically for the LA 15 and 25. Norvels would be good alternate engine choices and the Saito 30 would be nice for the 25 size.

The main reason that I see only profiles as being viable is that 15 size ships are frequently flown by folks working their way up from beginner who are loath to spend a lot of build time on something so likely to be damaged. It would be great if decent pattern-capable planes were available in this size that could take one from novice to intermediate without the heavy investment, and the carrying space, needed for full size PA ships. $60 for a 15 and $80 for a 25 sound like reasonable prices for laser-cut profiles but would obviously have to be higher for full-fuse ships.---Mark

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 01:11 PM (CDT)

Well cost is not a big factor for an arf. Lets look at it this way, you save time and money by buying an arf.
If you buy the Sig Akromaster kit, glue,dope,paint,tank,wheels,screws and other necessary bolts and small pieces and then factor in you time $100.00 really is not a large investment at all.
I've built giant scale models and still fly helicopters,a minor crash on a 60 size automatically starts at $100 plus just for the blades replacement.
As I posted earlier, I like 15 sized planes and certainly will buy a few if they are available

Just saw EdN's post and have to say that many who build 15's would never put that much time into a finish that good on so small a plane,kind of proves what I say about value of an arf. Yes I'd love to see a full fues 15 available that is pattern capable. Dennis

Just noticed the posted pics and they look mighty sharp. $100 clams for a CL ARF is quite reasonable but it might take quite a good selling job to convince a novice.---Mark

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 01:14 PM (CDT)

>AT 01:10 PM (CDT)

Question? How repairable are they? easy, hard, are spares available?

Yeah, I'd pay it. Currell

60 For a laser cut kit is going to be loss for the company in most respects. Maybe 60 for a short kit that means no hardware sheeting etc. It just cant be done that cheap.

So, how do I get two of these?? One for me and one for my grandson in Mississippi? Also maybe one for my son in the Dallas area (Red Oak). $100.00, not a problem, all things considered.

Yeah, how do we get them. I'll buy a couple.

It is not much of a deal at all if it doesn't come with the motor.

>It is not much of a deal at all if it doesn't come with the
>motor.

Huh? Basic RC ARF's don't come with a motor. Or servos and
a receiver for that matter.

The SIG Rascal electric ARF does include a Speed 400
motor, and costs ~$150.
RC ARF packages with motor & servos run from
~$250 to over $400.

"not much of a deal without a motor"

Floyd! You gotta get real buddy! These kits are a heck of a deal, I think. As Denlip said, once you factor in time, glues, dope, hardware etc. An Akromaster is going to cost the same if not more.

Remember too, these kits are to be aimed at the novice. The novice likely does not have the nice workshop, or the large selection of tools and on and on. How long did it take you to build up your inventory of hobby related items?

Another thing is this, a lot of the people in this hobby are older with a great deal of disposable income. If you want to get kids and novices invloved you have to sneak up on their wallets or their parents wallets (note: video games are pretty close to that $100 mark). Once they love the hobby, they'll open their wallets!

Am I right on that last thought?

Which one of you guys is seeking the distribution rights?!

I'd buy one at that price. I'd save about $50 in parts and covering materials compared to a balsa kit anyway.

Great looking planes. Can you also order a Blue Max .60? and how much would that cost? Is his DQ a Legacy?

Put me down for 2. $80-$100 each is fine.
Derek Moran

Chris, A plane for the novice is nice, even nicer for an older guy who is tired of gluing sticks together, or wants something for fun. It's nice to have a plane without the work factor in it.
If you want a cheap practice plane this is not a bad way to go. As I said I'll take one of each.

LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-02 AT 04:52 PM (CDT)

Oh I just GOTTA be the first to post this line of BS.

The CL ARF is going to be the death of this hobby.

Thats what they post all the time in the RC forums. It's totally bogus, but they post it just the same. The same people still mow their grass with sheep, walk their mail down to the post office, and if the string on their tin can don't make it, they don't call anyone.

100 bucks for a 15 size? You know, a 40 size shouldn't be that much more extra, actually I think they are easier to build and less weight conscious. Lets get on a roll here and produce.

I think this price is reasonable. Here's a recent experience that makes me think so...

After flying c/l exclusively for the last 6 years, I thought it would be nice to again build an r/c sport airplane for fun. When I went to several area hobby shops, I was surprised to see so many rc arfs and so few kits. The prices of the kits had really gone up in 6 years, while the cost of arfs had come way down, plus their quality was greatly improved over what I recalled.

Because I enjoy building I bought an r/c kit, but a comparable arf was only $55 more. I've easily exceeded that $55 after buying covering, trim, wheels, tank, decent pushrods, good hinges, and adding in all the epoxy, ca, lettering, and other supplies I have on hand from my c/l building.

My point is that I think we often tend to underestimate the cost associated with all the "little" things it takes to finally get a model finished and in the air.

I think modeling is supposed to be fun. If cl arfs appeal to some folks, then great. Let the market decide. I really don't worry about ready-made control line airplanes hastening the demise of modeling.

-Jerry Eichten

My Akromaster I built cost nowhere near that kind of money. I think you will find out how a 15 size plane that costs that kind of money will sell and then you will see that I am right though you'll never admit it. You have too much against you. The 15 size is a killer. These guys can say what they want but it's bogus. Every time I have gone on about how good 15 planes are I was corrected rudely. I like them, but many many don't. The cost of your ARF is too high. Maybe somebody can rationalize it but the fact is when it comes time to shell out the dough that is going to be a lot to cough up for a plane that small. The lack of an engine is in fact a big looser on a plane like this. Cox sells theirs for well less than $50, even a couple over the years that flew right. Some other of the few CL ARFs included small engines. Yours would need a larger, more expensive engine, but just how much can you charge? If yours sells for $60-70 without engine then yes, it may be okay. $110 or $120 with an engine might work too. But $100 with no engine? Way too much. Don't forget that the shipping on this sucker is liable to be high, especially since you will have to use a big heavy box - probably the shipping materials will be heavier than the plane. And size does matter when shipping even if it's light This is a CL ARF. It is very simple, just a profile in fact. How much should this cost, especially if made in China or worse as many Japanese companies do today? If you look at the ARFs for RC they are amazingly cheap and far more complicated. Cl may be a smaller market but that mainly just hampers it and makes things like CL ARFs largely undoable at a decent price. I warn you, this is not going to sell no matter what these guys on here say. Take orders first, that's my advice. Have people put their money where their mouth is.

Doug,

How durable are these little planes. I have been using a Jr Ringmaster to train new and interested flyers. The question was also asked about repairability. I personally like the planes, but I don't think it is worth the money for "Pretty" to use for up-and-comers. I would pay the price just to go out in the evening and have something to buzz around.

Zuriel

I'll take one of the Cap's right now!
Mike

Did anybody wonder about how big these things are? They look a bit small to me. Maybe the size of a Jr. Ringmster or less. Any ideas?
Bare

Actually if anyone can extrapolate any demensions or weights from the pictures in this thread, to say the least I'm impressed

depends on the quality too, I know many (all of the ones I've owned) of the r/c arf's come with junk hardware, which will have to be replaced. the hinges are usually junk, the control horns are flexable, and the fuel tanks split at the seam(plastic). Also a lot use the shelf paper type covering, that sags, not monokote or ultracote (that's changed on the expensive(!) arfs)

But, my dad and I were discussing the other day how few people show up at our field anymore with planes they built. Arf or not, you complement someone on the nice P-51, and he tells you so&so built if for him, or he bought it hanging in the hobby shop. Not a lot of people want to build anymore, or so it seems, so good ARF's might get more people flying, I've seen probably one begginer show up at our r/c field in the last 3 years with a non-ARF trainer, much less anyone with one they built for themselves. C/L is my secondary (sorry) airplane hobby, but I love it. I'd probably buy a good ARF if it were available and reasonable. But for me that would mean maybe a flitestreak ARF (or similar), in any size. But I'd probably be real tempted by something like these at a hobby shop for under a hundred bucks.

themouse

We actually encourage the ARF trainer at my RC club. There is much less emotional attachment to the airplane and the pilot concentrates more on flying and less on getting his precious piece of work back in one piece. I've actually gone to recomending the use of a SPAD trainer which has even less cost and more durability to it. And it flies pretty good ta boot. You can fold a nice Ugly Stick out of Coroplast, in fact, you can make just about anything with them nowadays and the cost is pennys to the dollar compared to conventional balsa construction. It's really amazing stuff and I really should be concentrating on SPAD CL planes, but I've hardly had a chance to focus ANY time on airplanes this summer.

Yes, some of the hardware on some of the ships are JUNK. Hopefully the hardware on this ship is tolerable. Would you use it yourself if you built the ship? Probably not in some cases. However, not all the tanks split, not all the hinges are junk and not all the wheels are too soft. Fact is, I have some RC wheels on one of my Shoestrings, they're perfect on it where they were too small for my RC Field where 3 inch wheels are the minimum. I'm an ARF king, so if you have any questions about them, I'll answer them. I think with the exception of my RC combat ships, all my RC airplanes are ARF. For quite a while I would build airplanes for other folks and the only time I had for my fleet would be to build ARFs. I have an Ugly Stick that I used in our one design ugly stick racing. A World air trainer that I goof around with including flying at night. An Advance 40 trainer with a Rossi 60 in the nose, that is a tad overpowered. A Joss Stick with an MDS 68 in the nose. I think thats it of my powered fleet that isn't combat oriented. All of these are exceptional quality and I'd have trouble doing them better myself, though they might be lighter.

Ok, I'm not the King of Arf, but I'm a strong advocate.
From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
aka Mr. Clean

>LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-02
>AT 04:52 PM (CDT)
>
>Oh I just GOTTA be the
>first to post this line
>of BS.
>
>The CL ARF is going to
>be the death of this
>hobby.

ROFL!!!

>Thats what they post all the
>time in the RC forums.
> It's totally bogus, but
>they post it just the
>same. The same people
>still mow their grass with
>sheep, walk their mail down
>to the post office, and
>if the string on their
>tin can don't make it,
>they don't call anyone.

But you wonder why they don't equip the lawn mower with RC. THen they'd have a line forming to mow the club field, rather than no one wanting to do it...

The Chicagoland Circlecutters have a CL lawnmower, believe it or not.. (a rope attached to a pole, mower goes around rope, rope winds around post, gets shorter and shorter with each revolution...)

>100 bucks for a 15 size?
> You know, a 40
>size shouldn't be that much
>more extra, actually I think
>they are easier to build
>and less weight conscious.
>Lets get on a roll
>here and produce.

Yeah, I'd say $120 for a .40 sized profile would sell like hotcakes.

There are already a BUNCH of CL RTFs sold in the US - they range from $40 to $60 or so. They're wood, with some foam in the leading edge. Problem? They're Combat planes. Incredible fun fliers, though. My thought is that if you could get the Russians or Ukrainians interested in building you about 30 (initial order) Clown or Flite-streak like profiles, they'd probably be able to deliver, covered in something like Oracover, for about $70-80 retail (your price would be, say, $45-50 delivered). These should pack smaller than F2D wings, saving on shipping. You glue the fuselages and wings together and sell them. They'd sell like hotcakes.

1000 Magnums may have been dissapointing to SIG, but if you sold just 200-300 of these things in a year, you'd be making a hunk of change..

I recently completed an Akromaster. Here's what I figure it cost:
Kit $24
Tank 6
Wheels 4
Hinges 2
Spinner 3
Controls 4 (aluminum bellcrank and music wire)
Covering 1 (skyloft)
Polycrylic 6
Dope 5
Paint 10 (spray can lacquer)
Misc 3 (bolts, nuts, clips, tubing)
CA/Epoxy 4

Total $72

Note that this does not include the decal paper I bought to make custom decals for the plane (25 sheets for $25), so you could add in another 2 bucks for that.
Granted, I had wheels and a tank in my parts collection, but they still need to be factored in at their current 'new' value.
This does not include my time. How much is your time worth?
Even at minimum wage I have over $100 worth of time in this plane.
Then I had to add my own engine and prop. (Another $32)
So, ready to fly with engine, the total value is over $200.
I think a fun flyer, knock around, 15 sized ARF at under $100 is actually a pretty good deal, provided they fly well and do more than go in circles like the old Cox RTF's.

>Actually if anyone can extrapolate any
>demensions or weights from the
>pictures in this thread, to
>say the least I'm impressed
>

It's not all that difficult. Save the parts picture, open it in Photoshop, zoom in to a workable size, pick a part of a nerar known size. I assume the wheels are about 1-1/2". Measure them with calipers, divide the measurement into 1.5, then measure the other parts and multiply accordingly. I'm assuming the tank is about 2" long. I come up with about a 28" span and a 6" average chord. That comes out to about 170 sq.in. To be as big as a Jr Ringmaster would require a larger multiple than I used. It could be as big as the Junior, but it's still smaller than I would like for a .15. At the 170 sq.in. I estimate, it would be a good size for a PAW 55, depending on how much it weighs. If it's built like most ARFs, it's probably too heavy for that engine. But it's too small for much more. It's about the same size as that Norvel .061 powered ARF, I can't think of the name of it, but the flying wing is the Hexdrome.
I usually come out to pretty close to the actual sizes when I do this.
Bare

>Actually if anyone can extrapolate any
>demensions or weights from the
>pictures in this thread, to
>say the least I'm impressed
>

It's not all that difficult. Save the parts picture, open it in Photoshop, zoom in to a workable size, pick a part of a near- known size. I assume the wheels are about 1-1/2". Measure them with calipers, divide the measurement into 1.5, then measure the other parts and multiply accordingly. I'm assuming the tank is about 2" long. I come up with about a 28" span and a 6" average chord. That comes out to about 170 sq.in. To be as big as a Jr Ringmaster would require a larger multiple than I used. It could be as big as the Junior, but it's still smaller than I would like for a .15. At the 170 sq.in. I estimate, it would be a good size for a PAW 55, depending on how much it weighs. If it's built like most ARFs, it's probably too heavy for that engine. But it's too small for much more. It's about the same size as that Norvel .061 powered ARF, I can't think of the name of it, but the flying wing is the Hexdrome.
I usually come out to pretty close to the actual sizes when I do this.
Bare

>...If it's built like most
>ARFs, it's probably too heavy
>for that engine. But it's
>too small for much more.
>It's about the same size
>as that Norvel .061 powered
>ARF, I can't think of
>the name of it, but
>the flying wing is the
>Hexdrome....
>Bare

It's called a Skybaby.

I think we've had this discussion before, but I would not put anything but a 15 size motor on an Akromaster or a Ringmaster Jr. They fly very well for me with this size motor. Anything smaller and you just couldn't fly it very often here in Oklahoma or Kansas.

>My Akromaster I built cost nowhere
>near that kind of money.

I just can't resist asking. How much does it cost for Floyd to build an Akromaster? Assuming he buys the kit at $24.00 like most beginners will have to do.

The last one I built cost along the lines of what Timme6 posted.
catdaddy

>It's called a Skybaby.
>
>I think we've had this discussion
>before, but I would not
>put anything but a 15
>size motor on an Akromaster
>or a Ringmaster Jr. They
>fly very well for me
>with this size motor. Anything
>smaller and you just couldn't
>fly it very often here
>in Oklahoma or Kansas.
>
>catdaddy

Just for the record, I lived in Tulsa and Wichita for several years. I flew with the Glue Dobbers in the early 70's, then started flying full sized airplanes at Harbey Young. I owned a Cessna 140 and Skyhopper Homebuilt there. So I know what the weather is like there. I was raised in Wyoming, which makes Okla wind feel like a tropical breeze.
And that's why I don't live in that part of the world any more!
Bare

>I think we've had this discussion
>before, but I would not
>put anything but a 15
>size motor on an Akromaster
>or a Ringmaster Jr. They
>fly very well for me
>with this size motor. Anything
>smaller and you just couldn't
>fly it very often here
>in Oklahoma or Kansas.
>
>catdaddy : I would say that a Schneurle .10 would do the job, even in your windy conditions. Like an OS .10 FP

>I think a fun flyer, knock
>around, 15 sized ARF at
>under $100 is actually a
>pretty good deal, provided they
>fly well and do more
>than go in circles like
>the old Cox RTF's.
>
>Tim
>

Yes. Again, put me down for a least one. All 3 look pretty good. There is a lot of aspect ratio here for all, which is interesting.

Re the Coxes: they weren't all Rock On A String Specials. Both the Messerschmidt and the Chipmunk flew well, with their 30" wings.

>
>>It's called a Skybaby.
>>
>>I think we've had this discussion
>>before, but I would not
>>put anything but a 15
>>size motor on an Akromaster
>>or a Ringmaster Jr. They
>>fly very well for me
>>with this size motor. Anything
>>smaller and you just couldn't
>>fly it very often here
>>in Oklahoma or Kansas.
>>
>>catdaddy
>
>Just for the record, I lived
>in Tulsa and Wichita for
>several years. I flew with
>the Glue Dobbers in the
>early 70's, then started flying
>full sized airplanes at Harbey
>Young. I owned a Cessna
>140 and Skyhopper Homebuilt there.
>So I know what the
>weather is like there. I
>was raised in Wyoming, which
>makes Okla wind feel like
>a tropical breeze.
>And that's why I don't live
>in that part of the
>world any more!
>Bare

Good, then we did have this conversation before.
According to the National Weather Bureau OKC is the second windyest city in CONUS.
I've been to Wyoming too and you know what? The 25 MPH winds felt just like the 25 MPH winds here. It's pretty weird. I think they would probably have the same effect on a .09 powered Akromaster as they do here, unless the laws of physics some how are different in the great state of Wyoming.

If you want to experience some real wind spend some time in Iceland.

You and Currel can put .09's and .10's on these planes and recommend it to others, but it's not going to change my mind or several other people I know who fly these planes with .15's on them. We've done both and prefer the .15's There is nothing wrong with putting a .15 size engines on these planes, that's what the designers designed them for...Fox .15's.

I'm not trying to offend anyone either. But to say that 15's are to large of an engine for an Akromaster or a Ringmaster Jr. is not totally correct in all cases.

regards,
catdaddy

OK, here's some more info on the Next Day 15 size ARFs available from Kaz Minato. I am getting this straight from the article in RC AirWorld, the Japanese RC magazine. Wing Span: 980mm (38"), Length: 790mm (31"), Weight: 700g (25oz), Cost: 12,300 Yen (~$100)

Kaz says they will be available sometime in October. If you want anymore info try his website. I think Leonard might have a link. I can't find the address in the magazine.