Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 29 of 29 known posts recovered
http://www.oldcity.com/wtc.html
Tom McClain, God Bless America
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm
http://www.rense.com/general24/t500.htm
http://www.rense.com/general19/2bigminds.htm
All I know is that all is not what it seems on the surface, and before going off to kick some ass, I'd like to make sure I knew whose ass needed kicking.
Larry Lowe
DMoon
I read some of this stuff. All of this would have been avoided if Clinton had gotten Bin Lauden when Saudi offered to help track him down and hand him over in the 90s. But no he said NO! There is a book coming out soon by one of the people who was on the team of investigators. That is why you hear this crap from Clinton lately about "we had a plan for Al-Queda but they didnt want to implement it" Yeah right they wouldnt even let Cheney set up office on time and all that junk. You really think they had a plan. What a bunch of bogus lies. Dont forget this Bin Lauden goes along way back and for some reason or another no one in the US for the last 10 years can produce him. We had our chance to get him in the 90s and now it is gone.
DMoon
Your websites are laughable and not worth the effort of even opening and reading, which I did I am sorry to say.
Tom McClain
>Mr. Lowe,
>
>Your websites are laughable and not worth the
>effort of even opening and reading, which I
>did I am sorry to say.
>
>Tom McClain
They are not MY websites, just to underscore that point very clearly.
It's unimaginable and therefore laughable that elements of the US government would allow U.S. cizens to be killed in order to effect a pronounced shift in American public opinion.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/001207Stinnett.html
No, that would never happen in a democracy such as ours...
For a real good laugh, read what a professor of constitutional law at George Washington University has to say in the LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-turley14aug14.story
God Bless America, indeed
Larry Lowe
Your paranoid actions, behavior and allegations that border on slander do not belong in this forum. Go to the "Trash Can" section of RCWATCH and foment your spiel of confusion and unpatriotic statements. Your pitiful and ignorant rant is a disgrace for any American to even read let alone believe.
Tom McClain
Larry (still proud to be an American) Lowe
As long as the middle east sits on the bulk of the world's oil supply, the U.S. will have a policy of importing most of our oil and doing whatever is expendient to continue doing so. It matters little what is righteous or just.
Unless, of course, we're willing to get into serious conservation of energy, give up our V8s and 4WDs and SUVs, develop serious mass transporation, etc. (But, wouldn't that immediately affect our level of comfort?)
The notion that there's some quick, simple solution to all these political problems in the middle east (plus the rest of the world) is naive and unrealistic. Large masses of people have been hating each other too many centuries, and have been all too willing to kill each other in the name of "God". It's built into the cultures, and won't be overcome quickly.
As for war, if you have a youngster over 5 or 6, you might find yourself taking a different perspective about it. The idea of a son or daughter killed in some foreign land, in the interest of conducting some simplistic war plan has a way of removing a lot of its initial appeal. Wrapping ourselves in the Flag isn't so wonderful when the Flag wraps around a coffin.
As for free speech, we better enjoy it now. It would seem that there are some who are ready to flush it, as well as other American traditions (like due process), in the name of "homeland security". (But we ARE seeking a simplistic, instant "solution", right?)
As for treason, an amazing number of folks seem quick to holler "treason!" when they encounter a different opinion than their own, yet manage to make a cat like Rush Limbaugh their hero and mentor. They conveniently forget Limbaugh openly giving encouragement to Milosevic during the war in Kosovo. (But, of course, he WAS zinging the Evil Bill Clinton - which apparently justified his treason?)
So. What do you say we get back to model airplanes? It's such a higher quality topic than politics.
L.
catdaddy
Tom McClain
I would agree. Let's move on and get back to model airplanes.
Leonard Neumann
Steve
I dunno. The politics seem to creep into it, Tom. Seems anyone not wanting to support the new Homeland Security initiative en toto is branded a traitor, coward, etc.
Sometimes the most patriotic thing we can do as Americans is to stand up against the loss of our freedoms. We owe that to the people killed on 9/11..
Best regards,
L.
Larry,
Of course our reserves are down. Because we dont go get more. Everyone is all about conserving instead of produceng. That is exactly why CA had all the power outages last year. They conserved voted for those who conserve yet TRIPLED the population. Then blame price hikes on everyone else. Conserving instead of producing is a good plan but you must also know the population is going to grow so build plants and be ready for it. The whole thing was absolutley ridiculous and a product of the voters. California conserves more energy per capita than any other state and when they needed it most it wasnt there. So please explain how being totaly conservative about energy and not being ready to build up and produce energy helps. Now a little of both sounds more correct to me.
As far as the oil goes there is plenty of oil up in Alsaka that we cant drill for because some one is worried that we might melt a little ice. They all say the Caribu will die off. That is wrong the first pipeline helped double the population of the breed due to heat near the line. They just voted on drilling in the upper most north where it is solid ice down and therefore took down a potential for 10000 jobs over the next 10 years. Yeah the Union labor boards are real happy with that one. That was all political too. That is the worst part of it all. They(politicians) I beleive do all their voting based on what this side wants and what that side wnats. Not what is best for the country. I have heard that 43% of US soil is protected and cant be used for resources. Yet everywhere else in the world there is a relentless attack on the planet. But since we dont do it here it is ok for us to support those who attack there own soil by paying them for their resources. Well that makes us dependent on them.
SUVs and Trucks causing the downfall of the country due to consumption. That is funny. Dont think about the millions and millions of people that come here every year and consume energy just like the rest os us. I am sure that has nothing to do with it. By the way Trucks and SUVs arent the only thing that use oil. Conserve production all you want but the climbing population will demand more and until we produce our own we are at their mercy. Now getting to the point of our own production is no simple and easy task but seeing the actual problem of us being dependent on other countries for energy is.
Until we produce our own product we will never be free of the East.
Its that simple. They own us. You can take away all the Trucks and all the SUVs and all that stuff and they still own us.
DMoon
"As for war, if you have a youngster over 5 or 6, you might find yourself taking a different perspective about it. The idea of a son or daughter killed in some foreign land, in the interest of conducting some simplistic war plan has a way of removing a lot of its initial appeal. Wrapping ourselves in the Flag isn't so wonderful when the Flag wraps around a coffin."
I couldnt agree more. This is why I say we come home and leave that portion of the world for a while. Leave it alone. Stay home and figure out our own problems. Istead of going off and to play world police every two or three years. Just get out if we can.
We cant get our own oil because politicians voted in dont want us drilling for it. Of course the Mid east has all the oil. This is a large planet and we have alot of it on our soil and sorrounding shores but we cant touch it.
The entire North Slope oil reserves would run the U.S. less than 6 months.. Whatcha gonna do after that is gone?
There is an amazing amount of oil in the world - but much of it is very inaccessible (e.g. under the ocean) and impractical to get. If we're willing to pay a lot more for our energy, it will become more economical to get that oil. (Gasoline at $5 a gallon would stimulate all kinds of production.)
I never said that SUVs were causing the downfall of our country due to consumption. But the mentality that goes with driving such hogs is one of (continued) waste, and that is an inconsistent parameter when it comes to being energy self-sufficient. The energy problem, like the terrorism problem, is global in nature, and won't be solved quickly and in some simple manner. Conservation of energy WILL have to be addressed as part of it.
And I don't think stopping immigration would solve our energy problems by any means. I know (new) immigrants are always a convenient scapegoat.. But let's not forget that this country is a nation of immigrants.
Yes, the oil producing countries own us. And they will continue to, as long as we have to depend on oil and waste it so blatantly.
Solving the energy problem will entail far more than drilling the North Slope. We need other energy sources. Think of how nuclear energy COULD have helped - cheap electricity could split water and we could be running our cars on safe, clean hydrogen. (To say nothing about the possibilities of breeder reactors..)
But we (e.g. the world) have already demonstrated that we can't deal with the practical issues of safely using nuclear power. (To say nothing about our latest "homeland security" issues..)
There's a ready, massive reserve of coal available to the U.S. (something like several hundred years' worth). All we have to do is find a clean, practical way to utilize it. But we don't seem to hear much about that nowadays, do we?
One other thing, Doug. As far as the power outages in CA, that little Enron company down in Houston had something to do with it, with its price fixing, gouging, and market manipulations. Keep in mind that you might not be able to trust everything that these "energy" companies tell you, no more than you could blindly trust everything a government tells you (including those "oil men" we have running the country right now).. They pretty well view the populace as a herd of ignorant critters waiting to be harvested.. And they're the ones who regularly imply that all we need to do is drill the North Slope and become energy self-sufficient as a result.
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. The world energy consumption continues to grow and the world oil supply will continue to diminish. It won't be solved that easily.
Best regards,
L.
One more round and then I am done.
The entire North Slope oil reserves would run the U.S. less than 6 months.. Whatcha gonna do after that is gone?
How can you know this? Your camp is telling you oh there isnt anything there. The other camp is saying there is enough there for a couple hundred years. We will never know if we dont go look. Engineers can make their predictions all they want but until we look for it we will never know. So why not at least try to help ourselves some? What can be wrong with trying to supplement our own oil with some from our own country?
Enron. What an easy scpaegoat. Price hikes had nothing to do with the actual loss of energy. Price hikes are what happens when it is in high demand. There was actaully not enough energy to go around. That has nothing to do with how much it costs. There just wasnt enough to go around for what was needed at the time. NO PRODUCTION! What does Enron and the illegal activity have to do with that? That co was running fine all during the energy crisis. Albeit criminally but the people werent getting electricity becuase it cost to much they werent getting it because it wasnt there. Then when they had to go get it elsewhere it cost a bundle and they were mad. They should have been mad at those who refuse to build more energy producing plants whatever the kind may be. There is a differenc between going ahead with technology and producing energy in alternative ways and just saying no to it all conservation is the only way. They conserved alright. Right into a Black out of the worst kind.
Wow you have such a great view of the current administartion. I guess you somehow have a good view of the preceeding group of liars and cheaters. Oh I am sorry one and the same. Oh yeah all these companies that are running themselves into the ground by fixing their books did this all during those years. Spiking the economy and making huge somes of money all the while making the impeached pres look like he was making the economy so good. Well if that was the real case Gore would have won by a landslide. Not so. After the adjustments have been made to reflect the real economy growth in the 90s it wont be so great. The media neglects to show us these numbers. It is something you have to dig for. The numbers are astounding. The actual misinformation that is passed off as good.
Oh well differing opinions make it work and also make seem as though it doesnt.
Either way I am still gunning for the top 5.
DMoon
The pointy headed professor, the ACLU, the media,and their fellow travellers can't seem to understand that this is really war. A protracted war with a cowardly and ruthless enemy with no front lines and victory difficult or impossible to determine. A war like no other we have ever fought but which it is vital that we win if we are to survive. The final victory is likely going to require actions unheard of in the recent past including large scale detentions, massive deportations, and possibly bloodshed both at home and abroad. This is a stiff price but again, it must be paid if we are to prevail.
I do have a son of military age who is ready to answer his country's call in her time of great need. That is what being an American is really all about, not sitting behind your taxpayer provided desk in a tenured position, sucking on the nipple of the very government you are blaspheming spouting subversive and divisive dribble.
While the professor gets the warm fuzzy feeling of security from watching an 80 year old anglo grandmother strip searched at an airport and having her nail clippers siezed and glowing in the knowledge that the pilot is unarmed, in the long run, that ain't going to get it done.
I am thankful that we have an executive branch that appreciates the situation and is prepared to take some of the unpopular actions needed to prevail. I have heard it said more than once that the last election was devine intervention-maybe that is correct.
Jim P.
I was going to stay out of this, but I have to say I couldn't agree with you more.
The naysayers don't seem to understand that the very principals we fought for and won with are the same ones that allow them to spout their outrageous babblings without fear of governmental reprisal in the first place. When you try to explain that, they don't want to hear it. I too have a son in the military and he too will do what is necessary to defend our nation and way of life, and I'm extremely proud of him.
Those that fear that the constitutional rights of aliens will be compromised are those that want us to be PART of the United States of the World, not the United States of America. That sort of thinking will destroy this country, not preserve or improve it. America's constitutional rights are for Americans, if aliens wish to be afforded those rights then there is a process in place by which to become American. If you don't want to be American, those rights do not apply.
I realize I've wondered even further from the point, but I couldn't sit here reading this and NOT speak my 2 cents worth too.
God Blessed American in spite of those that don't want to hear about it, and He still does for the sake of those that believe.
Randy
Well, shoot. By all means then let's drill! We really will be able to tell the Arabs to go to h###! (Here I have been foolishly believing the geologists, when I simply needed to tune into the appropriate sources.)
Just don't get an idea that you have me somehow all figured out and encapsulated politically simply because I reminded you that Bush and Cheney are "oil men" (can you dispute it?). I'm as patriotic as the next American. You won't find me particularly defending the Clinton administration, but I'm not some little mouse who automatically believes everything the government tells me, even in the name of "patriotism". (And I do find it a little difficult to accept that the current administration is some product of "devine (sic) intervention"!)
I definitely AM a little tired of being told that I'm unpatriotic if I don't fall into lockstep agreement with our current President. And I do recognize when an administration apparently feels that due process won't hold up in our justice system. These "war powers" can easily be abused to put down legitimate political dissent.
You are right - the power outages in CA did have mostly to do with CA not increasing their generation capacities. But that does not subtract from the fact that Enron's dirty little business of gouging and market manipulation did occur. And the crap with the corporations has been going on for about the last ten presidencies, not just Bill Clinton's. (I'm not sure what can be done about it, either.) But during the Clinton years, from 1993 and to present, the average CEO salary went from 45 times to 526 times the average corporate worker's salary. So I guess, in addition to disgracing the office with sexual conduct, Clinton just MUST be responsible for THAT particular example of greed.
Oh, and Jim, that example of the granny getting frisked at the airport and having her nail clippers confiscated - tell me, just WHICH ADMINISTRATION set that sort of business into motion? That is precisely the sort of "gestapo mode" I'm personally outraged at. I'm at a loss as to how the Evil ACLU or some Evil College Professor or even the Evil Media reporting it and complaining about it are somehow endorsing or promoting such things.. Mr. Ashcroft is the guy to be upset at about it.
Also Jim, I do hope and pray for the safety of your son and ALL our military personnel. Having lost several high school buddies in that wasted American enterprise called the Vietnam War (which I remember well, in terms of our initial enthusiast patriotic ferver, and later relevations of major deceptions on the part of our government), I hope we never see such wars again. But I fear we will.
Meanwhile, I'm grateful that we do live in a country where we can have disagreements. And where Doug can gun for the Top Five! (I'm going to gun for the Top Five Hundred myself! 
)
God bless America.
Best regards to all,
L.
If we can definitively say that these Homeland Security issues won't compromise the Constitutional rights of American citizens (e.g. only aliens are affected), I'll have no concern. (Although I still believe that due process holds up, even during wartime.)
And I think I must be one of those "naysayers", with all the outrageous behavior of daring to not agree with everything the government hands down to us.. Yet, I'm pretty sure I DO understand the value of those freedoms that allow my dissent. I treasure them, in fact I'm concerned about losing them.
What I don't think everyone necessarily understands is that I'm not somehow endorsing terrorism, or being unpatriotic by expressing my concern over these issues.
As for defending our country, our military always has courageously done so. I'm grateful and proud of every American serving in our military and I wish them well.
As for religious freedom, I'm very grateful for that as well. We're even free here to NOT be religious!
Best regards,
L.
>(And I do
>find it a little difficult
>to accept that the current
>administration is some product of
>"devine (sic) intervention"!)
>
>
I would certainly hope that if the Lord did indeed intervene he could do better than what we currently have or for that matter had.
Again, well put Larry. I proudly served 9 years and see nothing treasonous about your views. Most people like their leaders to appear pure and righteous and say all the right things to make them feel good. The sad truth is, the best political leaders are usually ruthless liars and extremely horny.
Long live America
catdaddy
My job is to train airline mechanics. Before 9/11 United and American Airlines were hiring every graduate. After 9/11 the airline industry laid off thousands. In response, I set up an internet job search program for my students and out-of-work alumni. This year I am celebrating the fact that they again all have jobs.
I am a veteran of the Air Force, and have nephews in the service of their country. Last year I sent them extra 'care packages' and lots of encouragement, and this year will do the same. I also have doubled my contributions to Disabled American Veterans.
In closing, I have one personal thought. The subject of free speach was mentioned above. We all cherish that right, but how many of us would be willing to die for the rights of those who disagree with us to voice their opinions? To those veterans who have died for just that reason, or who have or are now risking death because others hate our freedom of speach, I stand at rigid attention and pop my sharpest salute.
Bill Groman
Just so you understand where I am coming from. I served over 30 in the USAF as a fighter and forward air control pilot from Spain to Arizona, Nevada, Korea (3 years near the frozen Chosin), Japan and the Philipines. My father gladly signed up after Pearl for 3.5 years of fun in the Army in the South Pacific with MacArthur and my older brother enlisted in the USAF and volunteered for a tour in Viet Nam. I have little patience for those who make the following statement or statements:
"As for war, if you have a youngster over 5 or 6, you might find yourself taking a different perspective about it. The idea of a son or daughter killed in some foreign land, in the interest of conducting some simplistic war plan has a way of removing a lot of its initial appeal. Wrapping ourselves in the Flag isn't so wonderful when the Flag wraps around a coffin."
Larry and Catdaddy, I believe you owe an apology to all veterans and their brethen who willingly served and died so you can say the ignorant things you have said in this thread.
I started this thread as a nonpolitical reminder to all of what price we as a country and people had paid on September 11, 2001 and we owe it to the dead not to forget and let their sacrifice go to waste. We as Americans must hold the criminals that did this accountable at all costs. Yes, that may mean some of us and our kids may pay the ultimate price for our freedom. Freedom is not cheap. Our forefathers, the civil war veterans, WW I, WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada and Desert Storm veterans understood and still do understand this. In my book that gives them a lot more creditibility to voice their opinion on the prosection of the "War on Terrorism" than some you have.
Nuff said,
Tom McClain
>
>Larry and Catdaddy, I believe you
>owe an apology to all
>veterans and their brethen who
>willingly served and died so
>you can say the ignorant
>things you have said in
>this thread.
>>
>Nuff said,
>
>Tom McClain
Col. I don't owe anyone an apology. I'm a decorated Vet who gladly served for nine years and would have continued to do so if I hadn't been medically discharged after the Gulf War. If you would like to see my Veterans Disability Card I'll gladly send you a xerox copy. I also had an Uncle die in WWII and a father wounded in Korea. All of us were NCO's and we all came to the same conclusion that most officers above the rank of Captain and below the rank of General don't have a clue as to what they are doing. You seem to reinforce this theory.
You're right you started this thread. You posted something like this on a model airplane board, NUFF SAID!
catdaddy
You're certainly entitled to your opinions, and I respect them. And I definitely respect your military service to this country.
(I AM just a little curious, Tom, as to how I'm offending vets with my "ignorant" remarks to the effect that we need to conserve energy in this country..)
I feel no need to apologize for pointing out the reality of how folks feel about war when their loved ones start coming home in body bags. I see no particular "offense" to veterans, indeed, many of them (particularly ones having actually experienced the horrors of war) will agree with me.
If America's freedom and security is truly at issue, I'll agree that ultimate price is what must and has always been paid.
When such is not the case (e.g. Vietnam), American blood can be wasted. Not all war is for noble cause. A soldier in particular will agree that military lives and resources should not be wasted. The military was not the at fault in Vietnam - it was the politicians, the ones who couldn't even manage the honesty to declare it as war. And our government certainly DID deceive us; we need to remain wary of it happening again.
If the current war issue in the middle east is not terrorism, but the simple availability of cheap oil, perhaps we need to think about alternatives to rushing to war.
Best regards,
L.
They have no way to kill us in declared war, so terrorism it is. The only part oil plays in this is that there are those in the middle east that remain in power only as long as we buy their oil, so they pretend to be our allies. But in those countries, women are beaten daily in the streets and public beheadings and mutilations are held every Friday. I, and most other American travelers and soldiers that visit such places, come away from witnessing such barbarism with the realization that if these are our 'allies', we MUST not EVER think we can just walk away and hope the 'non allies' will leave us alone.
Respectfully insisting that this IS terrorism, Bill Groman
Leonard Neumann