Intermediate to Advanced

The Beginner to Intermediate thread brought up something I have been having a little internal fight with myself over for the last several months. To move to Advanced or stay in Intermediate.

Some thoughts going through my head...

So OK you have won Intermediate at most of the local meets in your area so move up dummy.. But you got killed at Brodaks and if you could have gone to the NATS... Judging by the placing of a few guys that you barely beat at local contests you would have ended up about 8th or 9th.

So as far as local contests go I feel like I need to move, but the big contests put me right back in Intermediate.. What to do... oh what to do...

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 05:21 PM (CDT)

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 05:20 PM (CDT)

Bob,
I'm in the same situation. I do very well in the locals and placed 7th at the NATS, 2nd at the FCM contest in Intermediate. I have decided that I'm moving up to Advanced. I've been in Intermediate for a year now and I've made the circuit. Here is my reasoning to why I'm moving up.

1) I feel that I'm ready.
2) I feel that the Advanced flyers have more to offer in way of help. Can't get that kind of help when your segregated with the Beginners and Intermediates on the same circle. This is not a slam to Beginners and Intermediates.
3) I feel the challenge will help me improve.
4) My scores of 450-470 says that I'm flying Advanced. Yes some stunts are very good, while others are not so good.
5) I realize that I will be a "Bottom Feeder" for a while and can accept that. While it is fun to win, place or show, contest flying has changed for me to see how well I do with my peers. This also ties in with #3.

When going to the NATS I plan on flying in the Advanced level. I don't think that anybody who flys Advanced anywhere should ever fly Intermediate at the NATS. Nor should they move back and forth depending on where or what contest they are competing in.

Bob, you'll know when it's time.

I am agreeing with you, Chris. There are always some people who are reluctant to move up at the Nats level for fear that they won't win. Well, yes, so what else is new? Only one person is ever going to win. If all of the people who have ever won an Advanced contest somewhere at the local level were to compete against one another, how would they place? Someone would win, and someone would still place last. But that does't make you any less of an Advanced class flyer. If that is where you belong, then, yes, go there. If you are capable of a 450 score, then you should not only be able to compete, but even make the cut in Advanced at the Nats. If you don't, it is because you have a lot of 470 flyers (nothing to be ashamed of here) or there are some sandbaggers taking up space.

The Advanced scores at the Nats this year were much more a reflection of who should be there, and should also give courage to the rest of you to move up, if you are ready, and join the group. Quite frankly, if you can consistently fly a 400-420 pattern score, I believe you belong there.

If you feel as you state you do about moving up then make the move.You will be compelled to hone your skills to be able to compete with the Advanced competitors and this accelerates your learning.Go for it.
Chris...

My opinion is that there were six or so flyers more than capable of "not finishing last" in Advanced at the Intermediate event at the Nats this year. In fact, there are generally two to five that make the Intermediate contest there their last, and move to Advanced for the "real' Nats..... and most of those guys "make the cut"!

It's not expected that a flyer graduate from a class....and rise immediately to the top of the next.....

Doug did and I believe that, in retrospect, he feels that he was a year late in the switch (spectacular as it was).

Crist, I know that you didn't win Intermediate, but you're ready and you'll sure learn a lot more in Advanced!

Have Fun!

This is a problem. I am not a hot pilot because I don't practice enough. I have entered sometimes in Intermediate and sometimes in Advanced, because I'm not sure where I belong.

I don't do "bagging" after looking at the competition. I don't look for trophies (in fact all my trophies were boxed up and given to the Boy Scout Troop.)

My scores in Intermediate are low. My scores in Advanced are much higher. But, I am still the same guy, and I fly both with equal skill.

This tells me something. Judges expect Intermediates to fly somewhat poorly, and Advanced flyers to fly much better. The scores reflect that.

How can I ever determine if I am improving if the judges have some sort of predetermined expectations of the flyer?

I know very well when I have done well, or poorly on a flight. It would help very much if my scores had some relation to my ability.

This is a problem. There is some misguided thought still around that people in a given class score within a particular range for each maneuver regardless. I hope this has been bashed enough that it is going away. I have seen Intermediates fly an occasional 30+ point maneuver and Experts fly an occasional 20 point maneuver. When we judge, we need to call them as we see them. My suggestion is that you practice more and become Advanced for sure. That would solve your problem. See you at the VSC.

Bob:
I have been having the same thoughts myself though I am certainly not winning this year(my fault, much less practice than last year-too much wind and grass, too little motivation).

I am going to try to bounce a little if I can flying advanced when it is flown off pavement and intermediate off grass or maybe in some instances when intermediate is mixed with beginner. I don't know if this is kosher or not but it's worth a try. I do occasionally put up advanced scores in front of experienced judges when everything goes right so I do think it will help my flying along with more practice.

I am of the opinion that intermediate is very competitive in this region and you should do well nationally. I am not planning on going to the nats nor am I consumed with a need to win so am looking forward to moving up and maybe just trying not to finish last in class for a while.

We both have a problem with the facilities at which we must fly(yours is nice but all grass-ours is a roughly paved 10 foot wide donut but interior circle seldom mowed and terrible turbulence), no coaching or assistance whatsoever, and unflyable weather for sane stunt flyers most days, most of the year so it is an uphill struggle.

Ya, you are 100 miles west of Tulsa, Ken Nash is 100 miles north-east and Bob Redmond moved several hundred miles south-west. If we were closer we could coach and grow together.

Bob,

Go for it! Superbad Andy Patterson needs some competition!

LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-02 AT 03:19 PM (CDT)

I think the next contest in this area is in Dallas right? If I can make that one I will fly Advanced.. If not I will fly Advanced at our contest the end of September... No turning back now, I have committed

I just had to add... Can't imagine what it would be like to live someplace like Dallas, the north west or the north east and actually rub noses with people that actually fly expert.. You guys that do sure are lucky...

>I think the next contest in
>this area is in Dallas
>right? If I can make
>that one I will fly
>Advanced.. If not I will
>fly Advanced at our contest
>the end of September... No
>turning back now, I have
>committed

You go Bob! I have no doubt you'll do great. I think all the intermediate pilots in this area are happy to see you go!

Bob,

Don't forget the Southeast - There were two flyers in the top 5 at the Nats from the Southeastern Part of the U.S.

Bob: I have always felt that one season (3 or more contests) in intermediate is enough, no matter what your scores are. How you fly head to head against Advanced flyers will probably be a better judge of how you are progressing in your flying.

I flew one contest in Beginner, then moved to Int. for the remainder of the season that year (3 or 4 contests), and then moved to Advanced the next year.

Good luck, hope to see you in Big D Labor Day Weekend, Steve

I won't be making it to Dallas so you will not automatically have someone scoring lower in advanced. I probably will enter advanced in Tulsa though.
I think you'll do well and enjoy the change.

Here is how I see it.

Int is where you learn how to compete in a contest. This where you learn all the ins and outs of going through a contest. The whole procedure thing. You know attempts and all that stuff. Also this is the first place you are flying the full AMA pattern in front of judges.

I feel that the time to move from Int is when you are comfortable in a contest situation and feel that you understand all the procedures. As far as the flying part you should move up when you can confidently fly the pattern and feel you arent going to crash all the time. I know crashes happen but I am talking about being confident that you can fly the whole thing time and time again. Also having the overall time of flight worked out and in good order for the most part.

How long does this take? For everyone it is different. If you get in 4 or 5 contests your fisrt year you will have it down pat by the end of the season and be ready to move on. If you only get one chance and only get a 20 or so flights in a season you might not be fully comfortable yet with moving on.

I see people coming to contests for two years and still flying INT. Working on shapes and bottoms in INT. This in my view should not happen. This class should have changing faces all the time.

Getting in Advanced. This is where pattern work really begins. Take your time here and use it wisely. When I was in ADV locally there were only a few competitors at each contest. 2 to 3 would be all there was. I was in there for one season. Then in EXP I got my rear handed to me regularly and still do. Take your time in Advacned get your stuff together before you jump up, unless you just want to fly at that level then that is great also.

However I dont think guys should stay at the INT level forever. Unless they are still having troubles with crashes regularly and overruns or cant remeber tha pattern things like that. Once you have the procedure down and working smooth move to Advaced right away and your pattern will improve.

Gotta agree with Mr. Moon on this.

Another adcantage of moving up tp Advanced is the learning curve will accelerate as Dougie said. In Int. you are often on another circcle with the beginers. In Adv. you are often flying and pitting with the Experts and that gives yo access to them and their expertise.

Making the junp from Advanced to Expert is another thing. I personally have been in Advanced too long and really should consider moving up. I guess one of the reasons is that I regulary get my rear handed to me by others. I only fly a few contests a year and don't practise enough. Still, when the planets align just right, and everything is going right. I have made flights that should take me into Expert. I guess it's time. Next season I think I'll make the jump.

I believe that the advantage for someone like me to move up is the comradery and increased learning-pressure to do better. Most of the folks I know who fly expert are great people and offer their help freely. Yeah, it's time.

Not to disagree, but there are a few who fly stunt "on the side" and will probably fly intermediate forever. Nothing wrong with that. For myself, given the level of innate skill, drive, committment, etc., I'll hopefully die a mid-level Advanced flyer. For some one who wants to be really good, moving up in an expeditionus manner is a good thing. It is a virtue of the skill classification that it provides both a ladder and a series of plateaus, and thus serves a variety of clientel.

Jim T,

If you can fly regularly at contests and complete the pattern with confidence then you are no longer an int flier in my view. you are an advanced pilot who can fly the pattern with confidence of no crashing. I feel that the INT is just a place to get started. Adv is where you can take root and fly and become good flier and move up or just stay around and fly that level. By simply becoming a confident flier at the contest level you are progressing past INT.

Just my views.

Just my two cents worth...

I think that the pilot is the only one that can make the decision on this question. You need to consider what it is that YOU want out of the sport of CLPA.

Competing against a higher level of flier will do one of two things to you:
1. If you take the challenge, observe what they do, ask questions and use all this to your advantage then flying with advanced fliers will help you to be a better flier.

2. If you take the challenge but don't do well and let it get you discouraged, then competing loses it's attraction and in a worse case scenario you quit flying CLPA.

There is also the consideration of judges (especially at local levels). New judges are frequently assigned to the Intermediate circle. This is not to say that you are getting a poorer judge, just that you are getting a less experianced judge. Until that judge receives training, and/or has the opportunity to judge advanced or expert fliers she or he is limited in their frame of reference.

As a flier I decided to move to advanced to provide myself with a challenge and to gain the more experienced judges. I am a bottom feeder right now, always within sight of the bottom, but I am getting better. Not only am I getting better in my flying, but also in my building. I don't really care about trophies since I got enough of them in a former life. I care mostly about having fun, enjoying the company of friends, and whenever possible learning and improving.

In the end it is your decision. Do not let anyone pressure you into advancing prematurely, however consider it a sign of respect when someone pushes for you to advance. For the most part that means that they believe that you are flying on a level commensurate with the next higher PAMPA class.

Fly lots, have fun, take home as many airplanes as you brung..

Ed

Congratulations to Crist Regotti. He moved up to Advanced this weekend and wasn't a bottom feeder. He put a very respectable score 443 (I think) and was right in the middle of the pack.
Bill Calkins

Bill,
Thanks for the kind words. Let me say that all of the Advanced flyers were very supportative and I'm sure they were able to relate to the move up. As a matter of fact, I'm a bit hyped to get out and do some more practicing!

Crist scored 452, 15 points off of third! If it hadn't been so windy I would of scored higher too, come to think of it there wasn't any wind?
Mark

Boy I sure am glad that I fly Carrier. Crist is really coming on strong. I think that this time next year we might just be saying "When you gonna move up and leave us bottom feeders alone"
BTW in Advanced stunt today it looked to be one of the most competitive contests I've seen. There were about 10 guys in the running for 3rd place all with scores around 471 at the Treetown contest.

WANT my TWO CENTS......Along with flying the patteren your BUILDING SKILLS improve. Most Advanced and Expert flyers build advanced and Expert planes and there scores show it. As with me soon as I went up to a advanced airplane my scores shot up. However, I studied all of the tapes and asked alot of questions. If you don't have a plane that fly's right, scoring has nothing to do with moving up. You can fly 1000 patterens with a bad trimed plane and go no-where. (Right Leo)
Building and flying a strieght plane with a good engine is just as rewarding as hitting 500pts for the first time.

Scott(build em strieght)Riese

Not sure I would have agreed with you until today at the Labor Day meet in Dallas. I live about an hour from Dallas and really don't have anyone to coach me. Therefore, until today, I really DID NOT KNOW how I was progressing. Guess what? I was fourth in Int., out of third by only 8.5 points with a score of 482.5. First flight was 472. No one was more surprised than me. I almost didn't enter because I was afraid I "wasn't ready". Now I'm PUMPED! Advanced, here I come!

>Boy I sure am glad that
>I fly Carrier. Crist
>is really coming on strong.
> I think that this
>time next year we might
>just be saying "When you
>gonna move up and leave
>us bottom feeders alone"
>BTW in Advanced stunt today it
>looked to be one of
>the most competitive contests I've
>seen. There were about
>10 guys in the running
>for 3rd place all with
>scores around 471 at the
>Treetown contest.

A big thanks to the Treetown guys for a great contest.
The weather was terrific. There were 5 of us going for 3rd place with a range of score from 475 to 471.5. I had a good time and found out that when you slow your plane up some, you have more time and your score will improve.