What is your most difficult maneuver?

This is naturally going to vary with people, depending on where they are at. The "just beginner" might say just flying level is difficult, or maybe take-offs. I watched a couple of new people show up at the field one day. One was instructing the other on how to fly. The "instructor" would take off, and then hand the handle over to the student who did a good job of keeping the plane straight and level throughout the rest of the flight. After several flights, the "instructor" let the student take off by himself. The student held full up and did a perfect figure nine! End of airplane. End of flying session. I guess (it is obvious now) someone should have told him what to do. So often we just assume that anyone knows the proper response and just needs practice.

So, I am expecting a lot of different responses depending on where you are at on the learning scale, but what is your most difficult maneuver? What is it that you need help on right now to get over whatever problems you are encountering, so you can progress beyond where you are now at? We posted responses on why people crash earlier. Now let's see if we can help you learn.

Leonnard:

Interesting qestion. Speaking only for myself it appears that the square loops are, at the moment the problem. But I suspect that I suffer from a more fundememtal problem which is a lack of focus, if you will, on the pattern and the various maneuvers. I have no desire to participate in competition so I have just been going out and doing this and that with no structure. Hence the problems with changing my mind in the middle of a maneuver and the resulting crash. I know that some of this has been touched on in the past but it might be nice to see a specific progression of maneuvers. So - for me lets say that I have loops -inside and outside, eights - overhead, vertical and flat, and inverted mostly sorted out. Now what what should I try to do next? Four leaf or square figures, hourglass or what?

I know you said you aren't interested in competition, but, if you are attempting to learn the various maneuvers, I would suggest that you learn them in (approximate) order as they come in the pattern. Of course, you could learn round loops and round eights or round eights and then round loops, and learn both before going to the squares. But the next logical progression would be the square loops and then square eights. Learn these before trying the triangles. And everything here (with the exception of the wingover) is below 45 degrees (although it is OK and I even encourage you to practice a "bit" higher), so you don't have as much problem in getting disoriented. I think it is, also, better to practice a bit more with horizontal eights to get the shapes down before progressing to vertical and overhead eights which can really "throw" you.

Even if you aren't a contest flyer, flying maneuvers in a specified pattern will keep you from "changing your mind" in the middle of a maneuver which is a major source of crashes for many people. And, if you like free style flying, well, develop a "pattern" of your own, and then fly that sequence of maneuvers in the order that you wish. But, I think that is better done after you learn the maneuvers. For now, just stick with the order that is presented in the pattern, and learn each one in progression.

The one that gives me fitts is the triangle. This is a quick maneuver and to put another one on TOP of the other is difficult. My problem is that I don't fly UP enought, and the Down leg is to far right. I got to remember that first YOU are the center of the maneuver and the the top should be in Front of you, then fly down, not out. I looked at all my scores from last year and this was the lowest. average was 30.2 Scott

You are right, you have got to keep it in front of you, and that is probably the biggest problem with this and a lot of maneuvers--plus the fact that we don't have a reference point for our angles. We have to visualize the three points before we start it, and then anticipate and start the maneuver before the plane reaches the visualized point or we will over run.

But, Hey, Scott, if 30.2 is your lowest score, maybe you ought to be giving us pointers. I can't imagine that any of your flights were scored all that bad. I'll take 'em. (Of course, we always want to do better. Ice scaters whine when they get a 5.8 out of a possible 6.0.)

Even though I scored very well this year I had a hard time putting it all together. Like Paul Walker said Your flying well However you need to put it all together to score in the 540'S. I got the set up and I can fly. Now just work on the presintation.
My goles this year will be to try to average 520. Maybe alittle high but I'm going to shoot for it. Scott

Getting a model ready to fly!

My flying reminds me of those grade school experiments with magnets, where you try to put the N pole against the other's N pole and they move apart. Every time I get near the ground the model just seems to be repelled. The last bottom cormer of square outsides is about 10' off the ground and I don't seem to be able to get any closer, I think I just tighten up when I'm heading down.

Well, I can help you out with that one. And, if that is your most difficult one, maybe you can then help me with my pattern.

I have never really figured out the footwork involved in doing the overhead eights the correct way. I've read written descriptions of this, but I can't seem to do it as described. Of course, it could be that since I am a "natural klutz" I just can't manage it! John

DZL, what footwork are you having trouble with in the overhead 8's? To start the overheads I take a step to the left when my airplane is pointed straight into the wind & plant my feet a few feet apart so that I'm also facing straight into the wind (airplane straight out to my right), then, when my airplane flys it's way directly in front of me I turn it as close to straight up as I can & start the maneuver. I try to make it fly straight up past my nose. I bend my knees & my back & tilt my head back but I don't move my feet again until I fly out the back of the last 8. At that point I turn myself a quick 180 as the airplane goes over my head, fly straight down & pull out as close to 5 feet as I can manage. The only important footwork is when I step to face directly into the wind.
Nils

I have three, actually. Round horizontal eights are more difficult for me than the square horizontal eights. I don't know that I've ever flown them to suit me. Interestingly, in judging intermediate, I often see flyers do the square 8's better than the round horizontal 8's. Second is the hourglass. This is irritating because I flew a perfect one once while flying by myself (of course). I do fine until I come to the far top corner. I always tuck under too much and end up doing a figure S for the bottom legs of the maneuver. This is a very common mistake even by experts. Third is the landing. The best solution I have found is to close my eyes when the airplane is about a foot off the ground, and just hang on.

"Z"

The most difficult manuvers are the ones that require flexability. I have had some major back surgery and find some of the footing/stances to be awkward at best. What used to be rather simpe manuvers now give me fits. The overhead eight is probably the worst. I can get positioned to fly the manuver and I lose it going just past the top. I kind of time it from that point on. If it is windy out then my buddies get to see "The Dance". Sure is a fun sport.

I would be interested in knowing if others have had my problem and what has worked for them.

Other than that, the only difficult manuver is getting my plane it the car. Probably my lowest scoring manuver.

Thanks,
"Z"

The figure nine. The first part's easy but the recovery always requires a paper bag! Actually I'm working on conquering the hourglass. Long way to go!

Leonard --

Your starting example was a good one. Most of us have taught people to fly from time to time. Any suggestions for "instructor" training?

Naturally, I have some. First is get real comfortable flying left handed including round maneuvers, assuming you are teaching a "righty". Then, flying left handed, have the rightys hand on top of yours, take-off to level flight. Hand-off to the beginner in level flight when it seems right, sit down in the middle and watch. Learn when to overpower the beginner and when to let him / her make some (non-fatal) mistakes

The hand-off to the beginner is a key move, and I can't remember exactly, but it was something like switching to my right hand, switching back to flying left-handed with thumb and ring finger on the front of the handle, leaving grip room for the beginner. You can still over ride the beginner at this point.

Put your hand on top of the beginner's for the landing, and let the beginner progress.

Key talents are flying left-handed, flying with thumb and ring-finger for short periods, and taking some risks.

Reminds my of learning cross-wind landings in a full size 172 with a good instructor. After an ugly landing in a 19 knot crosswind, I asked the instructor, "Why don't you do one, and let me just follow you on the controls?" The instructor said, "Well I mostly did the last one except when you pushed harder than I did!" Good lesson!

Flesh it out. My memories are vague.

I agree on a lot of your examples. I learned to fly both right handed and left handed and did a lot of handle handing off to people. But some things just need to be explained. We take them for granted while the person learning to fly has preconceived notions that sometimes don't "fly". I remember when I was trying to teach my daughter to fly, I didn't explain one little detail about landing. We take it for granted that we just continue to fly the plane after the engine quits, and just let it settle for touchdown. But the beginner...well, back to my daughter. We were flying a half A, fortunately, and I had my hand over hers so I could "steer" when needed. All went well until the engine quit. I had told her that you pull back for "up" and tilt forward for "down", thinking all we are doing now is learning straight and level. I didn't realize how she had interpreted that until the engine quit. She suddenly gave it full "Down" with the obvious (to us) result. THUD! She just assumed that she had to give it "down" to land it. Well, it did go down.

On that flying thing, I was flying a Tri Pacer the day I took my check ride for my license. You know, that plane some affectionately call a "flying milk stool" because of its smallish and narrow trike gear. My "instructor" (or whatever you call the guy who tells you that you did or did not qualify for your license) had me do a cross wind landing--in the 20 mile per hour wind that was blowing that day. He had (foolishly) parked his Bonanza on the end of the "other" runway, that we were now using for our cross wind demonstration. (I figured it was done purposely to give me another hazard to worry about.) Well, I came in over his Bonanza, crabbed, slipped, did whatever I could to hold it straight on the runway, and then touched down, bounced, skidded, bounced, skidded (about three more times) before coming to a halt. My "instructor" asked me if I was comfortable with that landing. I told him, "no", so he offered to show me how I should have done it.

We went around again, came back in over the top of his Bonanza--this time he is at the controls--and he touched down....bounced...skidded....bounced...skidded (about three times more) and finally came to a stop. He told me to taxi it back up to the terminal and gave me my license.

Leonard --

You have two great stories! I don't want to turn this into an oldtimer's story club, but it did remind me of another old story.

One of my old flying buddies (##### Chambers) was left-handed and always built everything to fly clockwise. To keep his skills sharp and separate when we got into Rat and Combat, he switched to flying RH and counterclockwise. (The Rat and Combat guys don't like it if you are going the other way!)

Just for fun, he built a "two way" Ringmaster (two landing gears!) that he could fly left-handed or right-handed. Worked right well, and he could practice both skills with the same plane.

He got a little too cocky and switched hands flying left-handed inverted and did a "Figure L" that was the most vertical landing I have ever seen!

Being a lefty, I have two manuvers that give me troubles. One is the reverse wing over, but I have been working on it and it's somewhat better now than two years ago, the other is the good old overhead eights. Where'd it go? Where'd what go? Straight up! That's the hardest part of the manuver for me, getting the intersections at exactly 90 degrees!

Jim --

Now that is funny if you have been there! How do you plant your feet? Do you lean backwards? Great post!

I must start by saying I am not an expert flyer,
but I've watched a lot of beginners c**k-up the landing by trying to keep the plane away from the ground.
This cannot be done......
This is what I do.....
When the engine quits fly in a slight dive to keep airspeed and control up to your comfort level, when it is just above ( about one foot..) the ground freeze the handle, DO NOT GIVE UP, and it will land itself.
This may not work for every-one, but it works for me.

Dave Moffitt

To-day is the to-morrow we weren't going to worry about, yesterday .............

Jacobite - A note on landing.When the engine quits, I just try to keep the plane level and let gravity land it. Works for me.

My hardest manouver has depended on the capabilities of the plane I'm flying. Last year, the hardest manouver was level flight. The plane had a slight hunting problem and it was very tough to keep just level flight smooth. It tracked great in manouvers, but would hunt around when level. Previous year, it was any round manouver. Plane turned on a dime, but in round manouvers, you really had to stay on it to keep it on the correct track. I've had other planes that almost flew themselves. If the plane is a good one and stays where you point it, all seem of equal difficulty to me. It's more about the presentation.

When I learned to fly the pattern, I was taught that it isn't 16 seperate manouvers, it's just one manouver. One very complex manouver. I've always flown it like that.

>Jacobite - A note on landing.When
>the engine quits, I just
>try to keep the plane
>level and let gravity land
>it. Works for me.

It will ALWAYS land.......
In one piece or 100 pieces.....
More seriously, I had not seen it explained in quite that way, makes sense too, I will give it a try.
I will try ANYTHING, ONCE..........

Dave

When I started control line flying, back in 1968, I crashed:
- 9 times to learn how to fly level ( it took 3 months);
- 17 times to fly inverted (18 months);
- 4 times to learn the rest of the pattern (6 months).

However, this does not mean that inverted flight is the most difficult maneuver for me; it all happened because there was no one to teach me how to build and fly a model plane where I lived.

Actually, the square outside loop is the most difficult one; I really hate that vertical "kamikaze" dive towards ground !!! The second loop is much more comfortable because the model has less momentum.

jmh