Stuka Stunt Control Line Forum
Archive, 2000–2021 · recovered from the Internet Archive
Forums › Stuka Stunt Main Forum

How much time to spend on your masterpiece??

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 78 of 78 known posts recovered

peter deane · Oct 31, 2002 09:11 PM

#0 source
A question for all you top builders;

How much time do you spend on your masterpiece (lets assume a benchmark Impact/Trivial Pursuit type design and conventional structure)in hours (rough estimate) and what percentage is spend building and what percentage is spent finishing?

How has this improved with practice? (for the same quality model)

I'm trying to get a sense for how much extra pain I'm going to have to endure to make a front row stunt plane rather than my solid 9 pointers. Have just finished my first model in 2+ decades and it was fun but very slow and the next one (big fire breathing pipe job) must be perfect.

Thanks in advance,

Signed, 'Mr Impatient', of California.

Curt Contrata · Oct 31, 2002 09:39 PM

#1 source
A long time, and an unfair question. It takes me a year, but about 5 months of really working at it. From the time the model is assembled, it takes me 3 months to finish it and get it in the air. About 40 hours in sanding and buffing the clear alone.

My advise is to get really good at building and flying before you go for a front row model. I speak from experience. Loosing your first "masterpiece" can set your progress back several years.

Don't allow one area of your skills to get ahead of the rest.

Trust me,

Curt

LNeumann · Oct 31, 2002 11:08 PM

#2 source
Curt is about right. A good 5 to 6 months of serious work, with 2/3 of the time spent on the finish.

There are those who can do them faster, but they may spend more time on them in each day and, or, they may just do them faster. But, then again, not too many of them end up in the front row, now, do they?

Sometimes your best bet is to spend a bit more time on the flying and a little less time on the building until you are sure that is where the last bit of improvement is to come from.

Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

Bob Reeves · Nov 01, 2002 12:29 AM

#3 source
Ya, Monokote and Lusterkote (or Rustolem) will get you 12 to 15 points if done right and you can do it in 3 to 4 days from balsa to filled covered and painted.

One of these days I am going bug the hell out of Doug Moon and do one of his two part auto finishes but that is at least 3 airplanes away. My super front row dope finish is 4 airplanes away, one of these days...

Ed Culver · Nov 01, 2002 10:15 AM

#11 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 10:17 AM (CDT)

>My advise is to get really
>good at building and flying
>before you go for a
>front row model. I speak
>from experience. Loosing your first
>"masterpiece" can set your progress
>back several years.
>
>Don't allow one area of your
>skills to get ahead of
>the rest.
>
>Trust me,
>
>Curt

I wish I had listened to this advice a couple years earlier. Until I am flying expert I will be happy with a 12 point finish and all those finishing hours spent practicing where I can pick up MANY more points. Just 1 point per maneuver results in nearly double the points over the finishing possibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I don't try to do sloppy finishes, and I try to improve with each airplane, but if they are less than 20 points I can live with that for now..

Later - Ed (Mr. used-to-be-impatient in NC)


Randy · Nov 01, 2002 12:49 AM

#4 source
Peter,

I suppose it depends on what you like and where your strenghts are. I like to build and I like to fly. Last year was the first plane in awhile that really scored appearence points (19 at the first big contest I entered it in). It was about 50/50 building time vs finishing. But the finish was much quicker than what was normal for me. I decided to go to auto paints and that speeded things up a bit (when you only put on one coat of clear, there's three weeks to a month right there compared to a coat a day of clear dope). I just started the lastest and hopefully what will be the best plane of my career about a week ago. I hope to have it pretty much framed up in a month to 6 weeks. All the details like wheel pants, fairings, fillets and such should take another month (this is slow, detail work) and the finish over another month or 6 weeks. Target date to complete should be around Feburary or March giving me a solid 6 to 8 weeks before the first contest I'll enter with it. I don't know if that's fast or not. I generally get at least some work done on a plane 4 to 6 nights a week when I'm in the groove. Sometimes it 4 or 5 hours sessions, sometimes it's a 1/2 hour. Depends on the demands of the rest of life (like the barn I'm building for my spouse).

Randy

Randy · Nov 01, 2002 04:03 PM

#17 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-02 AT 00:36 AM (CDT)

I should note one thing about finishes. As Windy once told me, no finish is ever done, just abandoned. You spend as must time on as finish as you can stand.

Randy

Peter Deane · Nov 01, 2002 07:01 PM

#20 source
Now THIS is a sentiment I can identify with!!

Peter

>I should note one thing about
>finishes. As Windy once told
>me, no finish is ever
>done, just abandoned. You spend
>as must time on as
>finsih as you can stand.
>
>
>Randy


rudderpost99 · Nov 02, 2002 01:41 AM

#26 source
Amen to that... my T-bird has taken more than four months so far. Admittedly I haven't had a lot of spare time, but I don't think I can stand much more. I sprayed on a coat of primer earlier this week and was dismayed at the number of flaws, bumps and voids that jumped out. So I give up: this weekend (weather permitting) she gets a first color coat, and she won't get five wet-sanded coats after that. Maybe two coats of clear on top, no sanding there either. A "solid 9 pointer", as someone said, and that's just fine for this rusty flyer.

[photo not recovered: TbirdPrimer_01_web_x.jpg]

- Dave Pellerin

- Dave

DMoon · Nov 04, 2002 11:16 AM

#48 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-02 AT 02:32 PM (CDT)

That is exacly right. I usually last about three weeks onmy finishes. But then again I have only mustered 15 points at the Nats, only 14 2002. I just cant get into all the lines and dots and stuff. Just my pref., I really like the looking at the nice ones but it is not for me. A nice simple three color finish that is flat it what I am after. I just painted and cleared my latest plane in three days. It nneds one ore clear coat then about 10 hours sanding a buffing and it will be ready to roll. Filling it takes about 2 weeks. So I spend about month total finishing and about 4 months building.

DMoon

PS if you work fast(read that spend alot of time) though you could fill and paint it and clear it in about 10 days total. There is only dope at the bigining fill coats after that it is thinned primer. Very thin I might add. It dries to be sanded in about 15 minutes and who cares about humdity it doesnt. Hell you can wet sand it out in the rain if you want. That way you dont have to keep cleaning your area. Automotive finishes can really let you work alot faster if you so desire. I really like it because I hate the plane just sitting out there day after day just hanging over my head. I like to get it done and get to flying!!!!!

Doug Moon

Floyd C · Nov 01, 2002 01:54 AM

#5 source
Fellows, you guys should really consider coming into the 1970's! There are any number of iron-on coverings that can be painted. Once you paint, it really doesn't matter much what the covering underneath is. I have had good results with the lustrekote and monokote as mentioned before, though there are other ways to do this, and there are better iron-on covering materials that can be painted, too. You can also do a lot more if you use the right primer on it. It's not just about the looks either. You have complete control over your shrinkage too which is a good thing. FLOYD

LNeumann · Nov 01, 2002 07:58 AM

#6 source
>Fellows, you guys should really consider
>coming into the 1970's!
>There are any number of
>iron-on coverings that can be
>painted. Once you paint,
>it really doesn't matter much
>what the covering underneath is.
> FLOYD

There are two considerations, here, Floyd. One, the question addressed a "front row" finish. Not something that goes quickly or that can be skimped on these days. Now, what makes 15 points today may have been front row in the 70's, but that is a different question.

The second factor is weight. The iron-on coverings generally weigh more. Then they take more paint to fill. So it weighs more again. Bob Gieseke will use carbon fiber veil on all the balsa parts and Japanese tissue on the open bays to get the lightest possible finish--and he builds ultra light.

But, if you want a front row finish today, you must work at it. And what you think may be front row, well, the judges may disagree. So you go back to work and try again.

We are talking very near perfection in every detail. Very near perfection. And then you get 19 points and hope that no one did perfection. What a lot of the front row guys are doing today (and there aren't many) would have put the scale boys to shame in the 70's.


Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

Z2 · Nov 01, 2002 09:07 AM

#7 source
Randy mentioned something above that kills me. "The Grove". Once I'm there I can really get a plane finished. As for a front row finish, I have decided to build another profile. Curt mentioned building skills and improvements. I want to build another Force and improve my building and finishing skills before going on to the "Killer" plane. I still get very much into the details of the fillets and curves trying to make indentions and flat spots disappear.

I still use traditional silkspan and dope and recently tried Polyspan. Neat stuff seems to take more dope to fill than silkspan though.

One thing that has helped me some is to dedicate myself to building one plane completely before starting annother one. There are so many planes I want to build and I have more than one engine now and they need a home.

One other problem I have building, given a choice of building or flying I usually make castor fumes.

Later,
Zuriel

Zuriel D. Armstrong

pnevai · Nov 01, 2002 08:23 PM

#22 source
I'll go floyd one step further, lets get into the new millenium. Back when monokote was introduced it was a hit and miss product. Some times it sagged sometimes it did not. It had other quirks as well. Over the years it has improved. Plus now it comes in a wide array of colors not previously available.

Opaque monokote weighs in as .6 - .7 ounces per square yard. Now that is lightweight when you consider that to finish the medium sized plane you use no more than 2 square yards of material. If you spend some time and prepare the wood surface well you get an instant high gloss finish. Some will say "Yeah but you get all those seams" Well you do get some seams but that is where planning and experince using the material comes in. If you pre plan and perhaps use some paper to maked patterns of the panels you need to cover the airplane you can reduce the number of seams necessary and psoition them so the fall in areas where they are most unnoticable.

If you cover the airplane starting from the bact to the front and bottom to top you will never have a seam lift up at the edges and look nasty. But the newer stuff holds down a lot better than the older stuff did. Others will say you are going to get wrinkles in tight corners or around curves. Well you will if you do not know how to work the material in the problem areas.

Also with modern paints now available there is no reason that you can not get exactly the look you want with monokote. Adding some plastizer to automotive finish and you can make any design, gradient, lettering, effect you can using dope and silkspan, and save 80% of the work because monokote is alredy a ultra smooth surface which to paint. And as it already has the base color you save the weight of the primer and the base color as well. But that is if you feel you can not get the look you want by using monokote alone. You can iron monokote over monokote and avoid the bubble that form underneath you just ahve to pre plan your cuts and minimize the amount of surface area where the material overlaps, the rest is handled by using proper application techniques.

One thing though even with all of the advantages that monokote offers, it had one bigh disadvantage over painted finishes. Monokote is far less forgiving. Most times if you make a mistake you have to trash the entire panel and start from scratch. There is no fixing mistakes. With paint you just sand the surface and re paint the area. With monokote you have to peels the entire panel off and redo say the entire upper part of the wing.

The only thing that makes this tolerable is that you can preposition pieces as much as you want and fit and trim until you get what you want. Monokote is not permenent until you stick it down with an iron. With paint you are committed the second you it the trigger on the paint sprayer.

Also repairs to monokote is far easier than silspan and dope. Trash and have to redo an entire wing panel on a front row airplane and to match the color and appearence of the rest of the airplane can become a nightmare, also blending the new area into the old becomes a chore. Especially if the finish being repaired is a couple years old. The origional finish may have faded a hair or lightened or darkened. With Monokote your repaired panel will look exactly like the existing finish on the airplane. PLus it would take far less time to effect.

Finally some would say that there is no skill required in using and finishing with monokote. To those I say, If you think that then you have not tried to get a smooth wrinkle free seamless finish with monokote. To get prime results it takes no less skill than dope and silkspan, it only takes less time from start to finished product.

Monokote is however expensive. $11.00 for the standard colors and up to $14.00 for the metallics and pearl finishes. You can easily spend $80 or more for a plane that uses more than on or two colors for the entire look you are trying to get. My brodak vector has 6 different colors of monokote on it and to finish the airplane I had to spend over $80 on monokote alone. But what is my time worth, I had the plane covered and finished in a weeks worth of evenings as opposed to a month or more applying primer, paint and clear with the associated drying time and wet sanding and rubbing etc.

Paint has the one advantage that it can produce a seamless finish, (As long as it is done carefully and coreectly) but in the end no matter which you use the results can be excellent. But as others mentioned, crashing as airplane that required a lot of effort in finishing is certainly no fun so avoid the fancy finish, be it monokote or paint until you have passed your crashing phase as a colorful pile of balsa scrap looks pretty much like a colorful pile of balsa scrap that too great pains to achieve.

SteveMoon · Nov 06, 2002 10:35 AM

#76 source
Leonard: If you use the right iron-on cover, it is not heavier. My Sportster is covered with clear Monokote on the wings and Ozcover (which is meant to be painted) on the fuse and other areas. This plane is huge (63" span, 21" tail moment) and weighs 53 oz. with a Saito 56.

Once the plane was covered, I flew it some to get it trimmed out; then painted it. It took one day to paint and clear coat the plane. It needed tail and tip weight so I just sprayed more clear in these areas. I was able to get about 60 - 70 flights on this plane before the end of flying season instead of spending forever and a day and the day after that finishing. Accomplishing light and presentable finishes with painted iron-on coverings can be done.

Later, Steve

Planebrain · Nov 01, 2002 09:31 AM

#8 source
My models decide how much time. That could be anywhere from 5 weeks to three years, depending on how outlandish my epic paint scheme is. -- Iain

Jim P · Nov 01, 2002 10:02 AM

#9 source
I'm pretty prolific and like to build. A kit, 40 sized, built up fuselage stunter like an Oriental will usually take about 2- 3weeks, A Nobler maybe 3 to 4 weeks built in spurts. This is with kote, silkspan on fuse with nitrate dope and starch to fill, rustoleum. Lusterkote saves time as it is much faster drying. These airplanes get 10-13 points locally, got 15 one time. Are solidly built and usually light for the design. Canopy painted inside, all crucial joints with epoxy, aeropoxy light fillets, vinyl spackling paste ding filler.

A scratch built similar model adds a week, profiles save a couple of days, a scratch built but lazer ribbed flite streak can be framed and ready to cover and finish in 2 or 3 days, the same or less for my little combat ships. Ain't CA wonderful?

Jim Phillips · Nov 01, 2002 10:05 AM

#10 source
AS to the original question, I could not build a front row, or even second row airplane regardless of the time spent on it, even 20 years.

James C Johnson · Nov 01, 2002 11:17 AM

#12 source
A good way to start is with a small plane, the Barnstomer comes to mind. Plus you can fly it Old Time. One of the hazzards I have is a large enough space and an earthquake free enviroment, models keep getting dinged all through the process. Once you crash a plane with a lot of hours into it you will never be the same. I still look at pictures of an Ambroid Stuka Stunt all in pieces and that was 1970. I used to and still like to take pictures of crashes, a kind of before and after album. The main objective is to have fun at this model airplane stuff, if it becomes work some of the fun may disappear. Also if you are married it might be easier to get in the front row if you got divorced right now. My wife complained that I spent too much time on my last plane, luckily she has met some of the wonderful people in this great sport. Jim J.

peabody · Nov 01, 2002 02:37 PM

taking Jim to task#15 source
Jim:
You said that you could not build a "front row" airplane... even in 20 years. I would bet that, with the desire and coaching you could.

Case (s) in point... there have been several airplanes that we built in Windy's basement...and more than one "front row" piece. These were built by folks with a desire... Windy would coach / cajole them into creating virtual masterpieces. Not by doing the work, but by demonstrating the correct techniques and then insisting that they be applied.

Some of these techniques are learned well enough that even a bystander can increase the presentation quality of his plane.

See Ya

Peabody

See Ya

Peabody

Jim P · Nov 01, 2002 03:40 PM

RE: taking Jim to task#16 source
Thanks Rich for the vote of confidence-I'll start saving for a bus ticket for Windy. Actually, I have a couple of videos that were somewhat helpful.
To tell the truth, I am not real sure I even want a front row finish stunter as I would be afraid to fly it most days(good conditions around her are rare) and would be forced to only carry one airplane to the field or a contest at a time to avoid travel dings(I Pack them in like sardines now-they get lots of dings).
Anyway, I enjoy building, getting them in the air, playing with them for a while, and starting another. The 5 or so appearance points I may lose don't bother me and the airplanes still look pretty decent.

Brett Buck · Nov 01, 2002 04:08 PM

RE: taking Jim to task#18 source
>Jim:
>You said that you could not
>build a "front row" airplane...
>even in 20 years.
>I would bet that, with
>the desire and coaching you
>could.
>
>Case (s) in point... there have
>been several airplanes that we
>built in Windy's basement...and more
>than one "front row" piece.
>These were built by folks
>with a desire... Windy would
>coach / cajole them into
>creating virtual masterpieces. Not
>by doing the work, but
>by demonstrating the correct techniques
>and then insisting that they
>be applied.
>
>Some of these techniques are learned
>well enough that even a
>bystander can increase the presentation
>quality of his plane.
>

Windy's finishing videos are excellent, and there's not a lot left to the imagination. I think a lot of the improvement in finishing that you wee these days is the result. If you do it like he says, it will work.

Brett

Balsa Dust · Nov 02, 2002 12:21 PM

RE: taking Jim to task#29 source
>I think a lot of the improvement in finishing that you
>wee these days is the result.

Is that a result of drinking beer while finishing?

godzilla · Nov 01, 2002 12:34 PM

Two weeks#13 source
I made a point to announce the time spent on my Nats plane at the Pilots meeting (we were discussing the BOM). Somebody implied that simply PAINTING the airplane qualifies as BUILDING the airplane, since it is obvious to all that finishing takes more time than anything in the process.

Doug and I painted my Shear Panic in 4.5 hours, all colors and clear. I filled the grain and covered the airplane and did all the sanding in about 6-8 hours.

[photo not recovered: 3dc2c8996790044d.jpg]

Gordon Delaney said I was lying (tongue in cheek), and demanded to see the airplane. He said something to the effect of "Well, I'll be".

The airplane was built less than two weeks, working every night.

The City Smasher

Proparc · Nov 03, 2002 01:32 AM

RE: Two weeks#39 source
Brad, There has been alot of interest in your plane concerning the use of a Saito 72 in an Impact. I have been using a Saito 72 for two seasons. What changes did you have to make to get this combo to work so well.

Milton Graham\Proparc

godzilla · Nov 03, 2002 04:48 PM

RE: Two weeks#44 source
>Brad, There has been alot of
>interest in your plane concerning
>the use of a Saito
>72 in an Impact. I
>have been using a Saito
>72 for two seasons. What
>changes did you have to
>make to get this combo
>to work so well.

Shorten the nose.

Shear PAnic is 9.5 inches. 9.25 or 9 would have been better.

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (my new projects) are basically an Impact aerodynamically. I shorted the nose to 8.75" and stretched the tail to 18". The design is completely different from a building perspective. The look is much more Saturn like.


The City Smasher

Randy Ryan · Nov 01, 2002 02:11 PM

#14 source
I love to build and am very fast. My Gladiator was front row at Brodak's last year (before the candy color faded away).

For me finishing is the time killer. The Glad from the time I started making templates until it was covered was about 4 weeks. The dope finish then took me another 10 weeks. Filling and prep are the killers, then taping off the trim.

I've read a couple of comments in here about building above your flying skill and I've come to the same conclusion. The problem for me is that I enjoy building to the best of my ability. I didn't get to fly much this year so I slipped from a fairly good advanced pilot back to the low 400's. I've noticed that I'm afraid of the airplane, or rather afraid of hurting it. I have resolved to build at least one model with a minimum finish that I can hit the bottoms with and not worry about scratching it up.

I've been a modeler all my life and when I got back into stunt my building skills far surpassed my flying skill, and at my age maybe that's the way it will stay as far as stunt goes.

Randy

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Randy · Nov 01, 2002 04:10 PM

#19 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-02 AT 04:10 PM (CDT)

As some here that have seen me fly, I'm not real afraid of the ground, regardless of what I'm flying and I have totaled some very nice planes trying to hit that 5 foot bottom consistently. I'm a decent Advanced flyer (470 to 490 range) but I feel like I have to try to fly the best pattern I can every time I fly and if I blow it and the plane is a casualty, well, them's the breaks (pun intended). I try to do the best I can building and finishing too and then fly it the best I can. Hey, no one said this was easy.

Randy

Peter Deane · Nov 01, 2002 07:17 PM

#21 source
Guys;

Thanks for all the input; I feel a lot better having my suspicions about front row models confirmed; no silver bullet, no free lunch just compulsive perfection and beaucoup de hours.

My total time on my model was about 1/4 that PW spent on his Miss America and this appears to be borne out by common experience; Glad I'm not the only one who completes the finishing when I cant stand it any more. I liked the Windy quote a lot.

Very sensible advice re. spending time flying more than building.
My own preferences are in order of enjoyment;1) Flying (by a big margin) 2) Building (which I quite enjoy) and 3) Finishing, which is dead last by a long margin. Seems I'm fairly typical!

I spent a lot longer building than finishing; My plan is to build the next machine while I have something to fly so I'm not rushing to get airborne, and go for a big improvement in finish but not drive myself nuts trying for perfection.

Thanks for the feedback everyone; Now; what to build......

Peter


>I love to build and am
>very fast. My Gladiator was
>front row at Brodak's last
>year (before the candy color
>faded away).
>
>For me finishing is the time
>killer. The Glad from the
>time I started making templates
>until it was covered was
>about 4 weeks. The dope
>finish then took me another
>10 weeks. Filling and prep
>are the killers, then taping
>off the trim.
>
>I've read a couple of comments
>in here about building above
>your flying skill and I've
>come to the same conclusion.
>The problem for me is
>that I enjoy building to
>the best of my ability.
>I didn't get to fly
>much this year so I
>slipped from a fairly good
>advanced pilot back to the
>low 400's. I've noticed that
>I'm afraid of the airplane,
>or rather afraid of hurting
>it. I have resolved to
>build at least one model
>with a minimum finish that
>I can hit the bottoms
>with and not worry about
>scratching it up.
>
>I've been a modeler all my
>life and when I got
>back into stunt my building
>skills far surpassed my flying
>skill, and at my age
>maybe that's the way it
>will stay as far as
>stunt goes.
>
>Randy


denlip · Nov 01, 2002 08:29 PM

#23 source
Actually you should always have a 'beater' plane to go out and get a few flights in and try the new stuff before you do it on your super ship. Then you should have a really nice almost good enough to be front row type so you can go out and fly and not be afraid of beating to death your super ship.
Come to think about it if you do that you won't ever get to fly that super ship.
All kidding aside it's nice to have that front row airplane but for most it isn't going to make you a winner unless you can fly like the top 5 and that takes practice not a super finished plane.
I'd love to have that type of plane it just isn't feasable given my time and particularly dedication levels.
Dennis

Floyd C · Nov 01, 2002 11:59 PM

#24 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 00:01 AM (CDT)

I don't believe the continued use of dope has to do with not being able to get a first class finish with new methods. I don't think it has to do with weight or with seams. It's just because dope is what people know and dope is way easier for people who don't want to learn the new stuff.

Dope can be reworked or redone dozens of times while working a project. The whole thing with dope is much less definite than with plastic. You can sand a little more here, slop a little more on there, whatever. Masking stripes for paint is easier than cutting them out from plastic, though you can always paint them on plastic to if so inclined. It is far easier in terms of skill to get a nice finish with dope that to learn to use plastic right. It will take a lot longer to do each plane in dope, though!

A person who can use iron-ons right can get a first class finish in no time, but it does take a lot of practice. As for seams, I have seen some plastic covered planes that had no seams visible. Some of those RC guys have some skill after all!
If your dope finish is taking you too long, it would be well worth it in the long run to learn to use iron-ons. My guess is that it will take several planes at least, maybe more like 10-20, to get the skill to do it to a true first-class level though.

Due to my recent fumes trouble I have been using plastic and have yet to equal my dope abilities though it is coming along. Some of these colors you can get are great. The fellow mentioned metallic teal last week and that is a favorite of mine. Seems there is always a bump on the wood that you didn't see though!

I am 100% sure my plastic planes are lighter than doped ones.

On most planes - those that are not intended to be contest winners - I
can see no reason to use dope at all. Plastic is plenty strong IF you get it tight. The special tools they sell make it so much easier. I can build a very good looking if not 1st class plane in a day or two using plastic. I especially hate to see dope recommended for beginners. People are sensitive to the fumes more these days plus it takes too long.

You hardly ever see a dope covered RC plane but those guys can make 1st class finishes. It is almost assumed that you will use plastic on an RC plane. Even if you don't, it's unlikely that you'll use antique silkspan and dope!

FLOYD CUMMINS

Randy · Nov 02, 2002 01:37 AM

#25 source
Floyd,

Hey, if you like plastic, use it. I've seen some of Dan Rutherford's "plastic" finishes and they are quite nice. I don't much like using plastic. No matter how good you are with it, it's still plastic. But that's just me. A lot of very good flyers use it. If it makes them happy, they should use it. I like painted finishes (though I haven't used dope in quite awhile), so I paint.

Do what makes you happy.

Randy

pnevai · Nov 02, 2002 07:05 PM

#33 source
Well this is my new Vector, 100% monokote.

[photo not recovered: sting.jpg]

Crist_Rigotti · Nov 02, 2002 09:00 PM

#36 source
>Well this is my new Vector,
>100% monokote.
>

Nice! Very Nice!

Crist Rigotti
"A driver trying to be a pilot"

DMoon · Nov 04, 2002 12:38 PM

#50 source
Yeah...That kicks ass!!!!!!

DMoon

VERY VERY NICE WORK!!!!

Doug Moon

Proparc · Nov 05, 2002 12:10 AM

#53 source
>Well this is my new Vector,
>100% monokote.
>
>[photo not recovered: sting.jpg]

For heavens sake, have mercy on us and make a monokote video for us mere mortals.

Milton Graham\Proparc

Randy Ryan · Nov 02, 2002 09:41 AM

#27 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 09:47 AM (CDT)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 09:45 AM (CDT)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-02 AT 09:43 AM (CDT)

Floyd,

You refer a number of times to a "first class finish" with plastics. I'd like to point out that first class on the RC flight line is a long way from a "front row" finish at a stunt contest, miles. I personally am familiar with what can be done with iron-ons, members of our RC club are constantly asking me to cover models for them. I'm not talking about sunday afternoon models, I'm talking about some highly competitive pattern ships. I don't bring this up to blow my own horn, only to make the point that I, as a CL competitor, am also very familiar and proficient with plastics, and use them very well. I all also have built and painted custom cars and motorcycles, I know those materials as well.

All that said, and I say this respectfully, if you do not participate in competitive stunt, you are speaking without any authority or credibility.

For many, like myself, there is a certain "something" about a well done dope finish that cannot be equaled by any other means. Automotive coatings are getting close, but it's still not there.

I still build silk and dope RC models (granted they are RC vintage models) and they have what is now, a unique appearance and I can tell you that a well done silk and dope model on the RC flight line attracks the attention of virtually all there at the time. To the young guys it's something new, they've never see it, but to the old guys it's a throwback, and even though they like it, they are no longer willing to make the time and $ investment to do it. I am, and will.

As to plastics being lighter then dope or painted finishes, there is some truth there, but little. There is a trade-off in strength as well. Plastics don't add the rigidity a doped finish adds, and even the most masrterful jobs don't have that finished look, they appear as toys.

And finally, you seem to see these posts as complaints about how long it takes to do a "front row" finish. Nothing is further from the truth. Those of us that do this, enjoy it even if it sounds like grumbling. You have to understand that not all modelers are looking for the fastest, cheapest and easiest way to build a model, get it in the air and bang it around, we are enjoying the journey bumps in the road and all.

Randy

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

mikey_93612 · Nov 02, 2002 10:18 AM

#28 source
NUFF SAID GRIN

Crist_Rigotti · Nov 02, 2002 03:06 PM

#30 source
My Triple Nickel, front row in Intermediate this year, took 12 weeks to build. Monokote, 2/10 CF and SIG dope...19 pts.

Crist Rigotti
"A driver trying to be a pilot"

Jim T. · Nov 02, 2002 05:30 PM

#31 source
A little off the subject: Frank Beatty, who won CL Designer Scale at the Nats, keeps a work log when he builds and can tell you to the minute how much time he spent on each aspect of the airplane. He has also done model ships (and cars). He showed me a hull of a sailing ship. After he called it my attention, I could see that the centerline was bowed about 1/16 inch on a model about 24 in long. Frank's comment was "I only had a little more than 70 hours in it, and I couldn't fix it, so I just started over."

Jim Thomerson

denlip · Nov 02, 2002 05:49 PM

#32 source
The topic has fractured but the origional was how much time on your masterpiece. The answer had been given as much as you can stand and that pretty well sums it up. But a few thoughts to tie into the threads that have been posted:
If your flying competatively and want to reach the front row then you must be able to do all the things necessary to get there,build and finish. If dope seems to offer the advantage and the wow factor to the judges then you had best master the techniques.But that brings up another point to me. I've looked at some really shiney dope finishes and while some have turned up their noses at plastic for the shine, I think that if you put a piece of white monokote up to a well done doped and rubbed out white painted finish you might just be shocked at how close they are.So much for the shiney toy look. After all isn't the purpose of front row the best built,best finished plane and isn't high shine now considered de rigur.
I really think that any modern sheeted wing is not going to be vastly strengthened by silk and dope, this is a holdover from the old open structures of the 40' and early 50's. So no that argument of plastic being weaker then paper and dope isn't too relevent in todays environment.
To anyone who thinks that a monokote plane can't make you believe that it's paint I suggest that you look at WRAMs and Toledo winner Fay Stilleys planes and let me know what you think.
Incidentally one of his planes used over 400 individually applied pieces of the stuff and was seamless.I've stated before that to do excellent work with plastic requires as much surface prep as dope finish.There are no shortcuts to excellence.
For repairs to any of the techniques, is there any easy way with any of them, doubt it,it can be easier with paint though as you can tone and match faded paint. faded monokote is impossible to match which is why all fine ships really should be covered at the field to minimize uv damage.Hi cost RC planes all use covers now to protect their finishes, and also to transport them.
I'm not writing this to advance one form of finish over the other they all have their place and their advocates. But a little speculation on my part. in todays time constrained, environmentally sensitive,environment followed perhaps by a generation of modellers weaned on more modern materials it could happen that plastic could be the wave of the future and the stuff of front row planes.

Randy Ryan · Nov 02, 2002 07:51 PM

#34 source
OK out there, who's seen or judged a Monokoted airplane that ended up 1st row? I've had judges feel the paintlines on my models to see if they're blended out, you can blend that out with Monokote, and the very finest work is still visible the to the naked eye. If the point of the thread is front row finishes, then lets find out what works.

I'm not sure which skill level we're talking about, but my guess is that you won't see a plastic covered airplane in the front row in Advanced or Expert at a major meet.

Set me straight please.

Randy

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

pnevai · Nov 02, 2002 08:48 PM

#35 source
With monokote you would have to expect to be able to feel the edge of trim colors. That is the charcteristic of the material. Just like flat military colors must be dull and not shine. It would be pointless fro a judge to feel the finish of a monokoted airplane just like it would be pointless to feel the surface of a flat military finish.

Personally, IMHO any judge that is feeling for paint lines is obsessing a bit, and is going over the requirement. IMHO appearnece judging should be held from a certain distance from the model. Just as they do in the scale events. Touching has absolutely nothing to do with apearence. One is visual and the other tactile and are two completely different senses. If they want to allocate craftsmanship points then they can touch as much as they want. Apearence points are awarded on the looks of the airplane, not how it feels. Personaly I would have had an issue if a judge was doing this especially if it was not being done to each and every entry. Also I'd have issue with it if such treatment was not specifically called out in the rule book.

Plus certain visual effects can only be obtained by purposly varying the thickness of the finish (Layering / Indenting) and that would be done on purpose to achieve realistic panel seperation lines. So does a judge base his score on the feel of the airplane? I hope not. No, touch should have no place in apearence judging.

denlip · Nov 03, 2002 12:18 AM

#37 source
Well gotta tell you since the front row and I aren't going to get together too soon do to my lack of interest in it I'll elucidate a bit on monokote.The best really don't have seams as you would think. In most instances it's a sheeted wing and the film is laid up against the preceeding color, any design is cut out of the film and the corrosponding design inserted into the film. I told you that it is tedious to do a top of the line monokote job and it is. Oh and yes a Monokote job gets waxed too.
Look I quite agree that a monokoted plane would never get to the front row TODAY.Times do change and conditions also change so let me end my contribution to this with this old saying.
Never say NEVER!
Dont consider this a flame or an argument. Just a defense for some truly spectacular film work that I've seen over the years

Trostle · Nov 03, 2002 01:03 AM

#38 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-02 AT 01:06 AM (CDT)

>OK out there, who's seen or
>judged a Monokoted airplane that
>ended up 1st row? I've
>had judges feel the paintlines
>on my models to see
>if they're blended out, you
>can blend that out with
>Monokote, and the very finest
>work is still visible the
>to the naked eye. If
>the point of the thread
>is front row finishes, then
>lets find out what works.
>
>
>I'm not sure which skill level
>we're talking about, but my
>guess is that you won't
>see a plastic covered airplane
>in the front row in
>Advanced or Expert at a
>major meet.
>
>Set me straight please.

Oh boy.

A "Front Row" airplane at the Nationals represents a model that is as close to perfection as possible regarding workmanship and finish to result in a airplane that has an appearance that appeals to the judges. Generally, those "Front Row" airplanes get 19 points and on occasion, the "Front Row" airplanes (or generally, there will only be one) will get 20 points which means that the appearance of the model is essentially flawless. Any of the models that end up in the front two or three rows are impressive by any measure. (These result in 17 to 19 points with an occassional airplane getting 20 points.)

There have been at least two times in the past several years that a model with a plastic/film covering has been in one of the front two or three rows. I am pretty sure that one of Bob Baron's models (like the year he won the Nats) was within one or two points of the front row with plastic covered wings. I am fairly certain that there have been others, but I cannot remember the airplanes or who they belonged to. (I judged appearance at the Nats in 99, 00, and 01.)

The guidelines that were used for several of these Nationals was written in one of these forums and in Stunt News. There were a few who took exception to that outline and I do not intend to get into that again here. Plastic/film coverings were addressed in those guidelines in terms that such a model would not be automatically downgraded which means that a plastic or film covered model could receive maximum appearance points if it was well done and looked attractive in the same terms as a painted model. Generally speaking, it would take no less skill, if not more, for a plastic/film covered model to receive as many points as a painted model.

There is nothing in the rules that define how the appearance points are to be determined. Neither do the rules even suggest that the appearance points should be determined from a distance as in stand-off or sport scale, though this technique works and has been used at various contests. At the Nats, there are many very nice models, but on close inspection, there are details that detract from the appearance. It is these details that are used to differentiate models that reside in one row or another.

(By the way, does anybody know who got the first 20 point airplane since PAMPA started running the stunt event at the Nats in 1974? I think I know the answer.)

As has been suggested in this thread, if the builder desires to do so, the time required to get "top" appearance points can certainly be be expended and there is nothing wrong with that. Some builders seem to be able to be more efficient at getting top or near top appearance points with less time invested. However, I think too much importance is given on the hand full of points that might or might not be received in appearance judgeing. Again, as suggested in this thread, the time required to get that extra several points can be better used to keep the airplane light and straight and/or to get to the flying field several weeks or even months earlier. And it is only a handfull of points that separate the top "Front Row" airplanes (17 to 19 points) from the more "pedestrian" airplanes around 10 or 11 points. I can show almost any competitor where he could and should be able to get 2 or 3 more points on most of the 15 lines of his score sheet.

Anybody want to start a thread on elimination of appearance points? There is a rule change proposal that the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board will soon have to vote to keep or eliminate the BOM and or the appearance points.

Keith


Keith

Proparc · Nov 03, 2002 01:52 AM

#40 source
Hello Keith, I have always felt that apppearance points should be held as a mandatory but separate category. That is, all contestants must enter, but your flying points and your appearance point are kept separate. This way, if you rock and roll in the flying part, you can brag about that. If you take care of business in the appearance points segment, you can brag there. It is my opinion that foreign or FAI controlled stunt ships look just as pretty as our planes. In some circumstances, their paint schemes are more interesting than ours! They should award separate trophies for each segment; flying and appearance. I feel this would encourage participation by eliminating some the daunting aspects of having to have a killer finish on a plane just to be competitive in the flying aspect.

Milton Graham\Proparc

Randy Ryan · Nov 03, 2002 01:27 PM

#42 source
Keith,

I stand corrected, thank you.

It ocirred to me that my words may have been strong when trying to make my point. To anyone offended I deeply apologize, it was not my intention to do so. We all have strong feelings about different things and have the right to express our oppinions, but not at the expense of others.

Randy

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

LNeumann · Nov 03, 2002 02:22 PM

#43 source
>
>(By the way, does anybody know
>who got the first 20 point
>airplane since PAMPA started
>running the stunt event at
>the Nats in 1974?
>I think I know the answer.)

How about a guy in white pants by the name of Gene Martine?


>Anybody want to start a thread
>on elimination of appearance points?
> There is a rule
>change proposal that the Control
>Line Aerobatics Contest Board will
>soon have to vote to
>keep or eliminate the BOM
>and or the appearance points.
>
>
>Keith

This thing has been milked to death. People keep thinking that is what keeps them from making the top 5 or scares people off. As you said, these people need to work on their pattern scores. Sure, the appearance points are important. One more appearance point and Matthew could have been in 9th place at the Nats instead of 11th. But I think we should keep both the appearance points and the BOM rule.

It is sorta like scale. We judge the model, and then we judge the flying. Some guys build beautiful models that don't fly. They lose. But they don't propose a rule saying we should eliminate the flying in scale so the "pretty" plane wins. I would like to see the 40 points brought back in appearance point judging. We have enough events going now that don't require appearance points. Let's don't kill it for everybody and make it a bought event. With no BOM, it would be possible for the guy with the big bucks to buy the plane and then we just start another issue. You can't compete unless you can afford it.


Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

Howard Rush · Nov 04, 2002 12:47 AM

#47 source
I like the event just fine as it is, but I miss the old, 40-point days.

Howard Rush

Trostle · Nov 05, 2002 02:29 AM

#55 source

>>(By the way, does anybody know
>>who got the first 20 point
>>airplane since PAMPA started
>>running the stunt event at
>>the Nats in 1974?
>>I think I know the answer.)
>
>How about a guy in white
>pants by the name of
>Gene Martine?
>
Hi Leonard,

You got the correct answer, but I forgot about a prize. You have done your homework, because I do not think you were there.

As far as I know, Gene Martine was the first to have a 20 point airplane at a PAMPA administered Nats. (I do not know if there were any "perfect" appearance point scores prior to Gene's accomplishment. I think the year was 81 in Texas. I can remember that no matter how hard you looked, the better his airplane looked. There were absolutely no flaws. And he still makes those kind of things.

I can remember that at our first PAMPA Nats, Jerry Pilgrim had a yellow airplane with a flame paint scheme. I am not that fond of flame paint schemes on a stunt ship, but this one was something to behold. Except for a small blister in a fillet on the bottom of the stabilizer, Jerry would have had a 20 point airplane.

Keith

Keith

godzilla · Nov 05, 2002 12:23 PM

#56 source

>I can remember that at our
>first PAMPA Nats, Jerry Pilgrim
>had a yellow airplane with
>a flame paint scheme.
>I am not that fond
>of flame paint schemes on
>a stunt ship, but this
>one was something to behold.
> Except for a small
>blister in a fillet on
>the bottom of the stabilizer,
>Jerry would have had a
>20 point airplane.

I can't help it. I still don't see how 20 points is defined by a blister. It really seems the true spirit of appearance points is somehow lost in a case like this.

The City Smasher

DMoon · Nov 05, 2002 12:40 PM

#58 source
How can you not see it?

20 points is the highest amount of points available for apperance. 20 would be a perfect score correct? Well if the plane is not perfect then it should not get 20 points. That simple. A blistered fillet is not perfect. So there you have it. Pretty simple I think.

You dont give a 40 on a landing with a slight bounce or a set of loops where one is just a tiny bit off from the other.

A Blister doesnt define 20 points. 20 points is defined by as the best score possible. Only finishes with no visible flaws can be awarded the highest score available.

It would be unfair to give 20 points to the plane that had a visible mistake or damage.

How could you justify that?

Has there ever been 2 or more 20 pointers? I have never heard of it but with the planes coming out today it would seem possible that it could happen.

DMoon

Doug Moon

godzilla · Nov 05, 2002 12:30 PM

#57 source
>Anybody want to start a thread
>on elimination of appearance points?
> There is a rule
>change proposal that the Control
>Line Aerobatics Contest Board will
>soon have to vote to
>keep or eliminate the BOM
>and or the appearance points.

Nah...

I already co-signed that rules change proposal months ago, before we sent it in. That way, no one can use the old "if you don't like it, send in a rules change proposal" retort that seems so popular.

Of course, some real debate on the subject would be nice. Just sending in a rules change proposal without some open forum discussion does seem a little anti-climactic.

The City Smasher

DMoon · Nov 05, 2002 12:47 PM

#59 source
What do you mean anti-clamatic? That was what the proposal was sent in for. Remember all that blather on the threads that Denny was on and everyone getting all in huff? The result was a rules proposal. That was what was said over and over. "If you dont like it well submit a change" So it was done. How is that anti-clamtic?

There has been plenty of open forum discussion about proposals. As soon as someone puts out their proposal 50 jump in(me included) and tell him how to change it.

I would love to read(input on) another discussion about Rules proposal. Everyone gets all huffed up and starts pointing fingers and telling everyone else they are killing the event. Dont turn it into a buy and fly. All the normal stuff.

I got news for ya it already is a buy (then finish) then fly.

DMoon

Doug Moon

DMoon · Nov 05, 2002 12:52 PM

#60 source
What do you mean anti-clamatic? That was what the proposal was sent in for. Remember all that blather on the threads that Denny was on and everyone getting all in huff? The result was a rules proposal. That was what was said over and over. "If you dont like it well submit a change" So it was done. How is that anti-clamtic?

There has been plenty of open forum discussion about proposals. As soon as someone puts out their proposal 50 jump in(me included) and tell him how to change it.

I would love to read(input on) another discussion about Rules proposal. Everyone gets all huffed up and starts pointing fingers and telling everyone else they are killing the event. Dont turn it into a buy and fly. All the normal stuff.

I got news for ya it already is a buy (then finish) then fly.

DMoon

Doug Moon

catdaddy · Nov 05, 2002 01:22 PM

#63 source
>I got news for ya it
>already is a buy (then
>finish) then fly.
>
>DMoon


Rock on DMoon!

catdaddy

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Brett Buck · Nov 05, 2002 03:03 PM

#65 source

>I got news for ya it
>already is a buy (then
>finish) then fly.
>

As a general statement, that's just a load of crap. Come to any West Coast contest and you wouldn't find 2 airplanes a year that are not built by their owners and passed off as if they were. It's almost unheard of. I suspect it's the same everywhere else.

To suggest otherwise is a slur on everyone's character; and you are *not qualified to make that judgement*.

If it happens a lot in your area, then that's your area. I doubt that it happens much there, either. But don't tar everybody with the same brush.


Brett

catdaddy · Nov 05, 2002 03:47 PM

#66 source
>
>>I got news for ya it
>>already is a buy (then
>>finish) then fly.
>>
>
> As a general
>statement, that's just a load
>of crap. Come to any
>West Coast contest and you
>wouldn't find 2 airplanes a
>year that are not built
>by their owners and passed
>off as if they were.
>It's almost unheard of. I
>suspect it's the same everywhere
>else.


As "a general statement" it's the truth. It does not imply anything other than having to buy something, finish it, then fly it. It's not rocket science.


catdaddy

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

DMoon · Nov 05, 2002 03:58 PM

#67 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-02 AT 04:29 PM (CDT)

And the flames begin to fly.

It is not a load of crap.

There are many contestants who do build their own models, myself included. Their are many who have parts built for them then assemble them. They see this as building their own model. Everyone interprets the rules the way they see fit. It is happening whether you believe it to be or not. I can tell by your tone that this strikes a chord with you. If you took what I said as a judge on people's character then so be it. But that was not the intent. What is happening is that parts are being built by people for other people. This includes people from all classes. As time marches on more and more people are able to buy first class built parts for their models. They then assemble the models and finish them. According to this thread a good number of top pilots spend alot more time on the finish then the building. If they feel that they have constructed enough of the model to call it their own then that is good enough for me. There is no specifics for or against it so I personally do not have a problem with it what so ever.

Besides what is the harm is using prebuilt parts?

People save time get more planes to fly and have more fun in the end. If they honestly feel they constructed enough of the plane to call it their own then that is good enough for me. I question no one's character. I am not slashing anyone's character either. I have been beaten models that were built with bought parts and NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I felt that was the reason for their win. The simple fact is they out flew me on that day. Like I said before I question no one's character. If you took my statement that way then you took it wrong.

DMoon

PS You said not to "Tar" everyone else. Well I wasnt "Tarring" anyone. Maybe you would "Tar" someone who buys compenonts such as wings and then constructs the plane but I dont. I never said anything about putting anyone down or cutting character, You did. You are putting words into my mouth and I dont appreciate it either. My comment wasnt a negative one at all. Maybe you took it that way. But dont try to make me out to be the negative one. Dont tell me I am not qualified to make comments. I am not setting nothing in stone just simply stating what I HAVE seen.

Doug Moon

Randy Ryan · Nov 05, 2002 04:15 PM

#69 source
I make no judgements as to character on anyone here, so I don't want to be flamed for that.

As Brett said, he thinks its rare for buy-finish-fly to happen. Here in the Detroit area I know of no one buying and finishing or even buying components. All here are builders and want it or at least accept it that way.

At a local level in my neck of the woods, this is a non-issue at present.

Randy

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Curt Contrata · Nov 05, 2002 08:35 PM

RE: I'VE GOT A PROPOSAL!#70 source
How about this proposal... I propose that no thread is allowed to go over a pre-determined number of responses. It seems that if any thread goes on too long, they all deteriorate to this level.

Curt

peter deane · Nov 06, 2002 12:16 AM

RE: I'VE GOT A PROPOSAL!#72 source
Mmmm; I was kind of wondering what I'd started here; Innocent beginnings as a question about how much time people really spend on their masterpieces;

However since it has morphed; Heres my 'opinion';

1 Building is building; building is cool
2 Flying is flying, flying is cool
3 Pilots should build & fly their own model to participate in any appearance contest.

Flying and building are 2 separate things and dont 'obviously' belong together on the same score sheet.

Would building standards decline if the appearance points dont count in the overall score? Maybe but I doubt it.

Define what the real goals of a flying contest are then design rules as appropriate. See 1 & 2.

Should PAMPA adopt FAI scoring? How about appearance points??

Does PAMPA want to be traditionalist (ok by me) or join the rest of the world (also ok by me)

Peter

>How about this proposal... I propose
>that no thread is allowed
>to go over a pre-determined
>number of responses. It seems
>that if any thread goes
>on too long, they all
>deteriorate to this level.
>
>Curt
>
>


Igor Burger · Nov 06, 2002 07:25 AM

RE: I'VE GOT A PROPOSAL!#75 source
>1 Building is building; building is cool
>2 Flying is flying, flying is cool
>3 Pilots should build & fly their own model to participate in any appearance contest.

You missed "designing" and "engine building"


>>>Should PAMPA adopt FAI scoring? How about appearance points??<<<
You can place proposal for appearence points for new FAI rules. It is actually good time for it, I will vote FOR.

>>>Does PAMPA want to be traditionalist (ok by me) or join the rest of the world (also ok by me)<<<

It is somehow confusing everything. Most countries have local rules, but when we fly on international contest we play FAI game. Where is the problem to have national rules???

John Sunderland · Nov 05, 2002 09:21 PM

#71 source
Lots of Pre or partially built Cavaliers out there(not meaning any one area of the country either) Brett. Doesn't bother me one bit. Dont think Doug was referring to any particular region or class of pilots.

John

John Sunderland

TigreST · Nov 03, 2002 08:14 AM

#41 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-02 AT 11:36 PM (CDT)

"How much time do you spend on your Master Piece?"

Hmmm that truly is the question. Well lets see. 300hrs give or take 50hrs. Easy enough math to do for most. But in my case I'd have to take those numbers and divide them oh ..by say....260. Why 260? Because that's the number of weeks in 5 years. I've found that with the normal day to day grind I'm calling "life" (and I'm not knocking it here) that maybe I get about 30min's to an hour, a week to work on model plane stuff. The weeks may not be consecutive either.

"How long to finish......" I've found it easiest if I just count the age of my daughter. She'll be five in Feb. of 03, and that's when the latest build will be done. (fingers crossed, knocking on all the wood I can find, throwing spilt salt over left shoulder ...or is it the right?, not stepping on any cracks, getting up on the right side of the bed, reading the tea leafs..coffee grounds, and anything else that I can find.)

That makes construction duration approx. 5 years. for the "Super Tucano". There have been other small projects in the works during this period to be sure,..Can you say baby boy of 4 months age? And yes even some model related projects like the "Phoenix Twister" project as described here on SSW some time back and Stunt News. The Twister currently bides it's time in line at the paint shop awaiting finishing details, ..like covering, c.f., fillets, etc.

Like most (I'd hope,..I'd hate to be the only one out there) when time is available sometimes the heart is not in it. So I stay away from the models. I've found that the adage "Haste makes waste." to be a true pearl of wisdom. If I do not have both the time and mind set to give to the model task at hand, the time and the task end up being a waste of both. I've learned to be patient, .and thank my daughter for that lesson. She drives it home time and again. I'd like to think my model skills have gotten better because of my kids. When I'm out there putting miles on the stroller with my new son Ryan, ..I'm humming along a tune for him, and thinking about how the next paint masking job might be done. Time well spent in my book, as we're both happy. I've learned allot of new stuff to try in no small part due to Stuka Stunts Forum and the guys I've met here. (BIG THANKS ONCE AGAIN LEONARD!!!!!!) I'm not a competitive flyer, but I do compete, ...against myself. I don't build trainers that I don't care about should I crash them, because they are all trainers in a way, and I care a great deal about all of them. To that end I'd like to think my model work reflects that. I've over finished my simple profile project because, "as a trainer" it's teaching me new things that will be used on the next "High Zoot" model of the future. Current schedule puts that High Zoot completion date oh, bout' 2022. I've not flown one of my own for the last five years,...but I'm having a ball. As pit crew for the local cadre I make every flying date I can, ..and learn something new at every turn of the prop it seems.


[photo not recovered: 3dc52e6b43322f0e.jpg]

[photo not recovered: 3dc52e8a43562949.jpg]

So how much time to finish a Master Piece?, ...that's a tuffy. Not sure I've ever built a master piece? I'm just trying to finish a "trainer", and it's getting closer. Preferred medium is dope (any one who'd use plastic, would probable drive an automatic too!!!! Dope and four-speeds are for real men (tongue firmly placed in cheek here).


Tony

Proparc · Nov 03, 2002 09:48 PM

#45 source
One of the most beautiful profiles I have ever seen. Looks like a flawless paint job. What do you use to fill the grain?

Milton Graham\Proparc

Randy · Nov 04, 2002 12:42 AM

#46 source
Tony,

I like it! Very cool plane. Best looking profile I've seen in a long while.

Randy

Currell · Nov 04, 2002 12:13 PM

#49 source

> Dope and four-speeds are
>for real men

Nice, really nice profile, Sarnia, but you're stuck in the past.

How about 5 and even 6 speeds? Cars even have 8 Tracks now. And Keyless Entry and all sorts of Goodies. Radials, even.

You're one Hell of a builder, anyway.

Shelby Twp

TigreST · Nov 04, 2002 11:32 PM

#52 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-02 AT 11:38 PM (CDT)

Proparc,
The base sub strata on the Tucano is as follows:
1) Two or three coats of Brodak clear, sanded between the last two coats.
2) .02oz carbon matt (or carbon veil as is commonly called) applied with a coat of Brodak clear thinned 50% with Brodak thinners.
3) A second coat of Brodak clear brushed on over the c.f. once the c.f. install is complete and dry. DO NOT SAND THE CLEAR OR C.F. AT THIS POINT.
4) The weave in the c.f. is filled with a mixture of: 1/3 volume Brodak clear, 1/3 volume Brodak dope thinners, 1/3 volume common kitchen cornstarch powder. You pick the volume of choice. This mixture is brushed on and sanded off as need be, between coats. Because of the high thinners content it dries fast. You can use more cornstarch in the mix if you can keep it at a brushable consistency. If you over do the cornstarch and it turns into paste, add more thinners, not more clear dope. Keep the mixture moving in the can as you work with the brush to keep the cornstarch in suspension. The more cornstarch in the mixture the easier the sanding. DO NOT USE THIS OVER OPEN BAY FABRIC COVERED AREAS. This is the George Aldrich filler recipe btw.

As it dries fast do not attempt to brush out the brush strokes/marks it leaves behind. Just cover the surface and keep moving. All the lumps and bumps sand out in quick fashion when it's dry. Two or three coats of filler material is normally enough. Sanding between each. Key is to sand the bulk of the material off. If you can not see the c.f. through the filler coats, chances are you've not sanded enough. Your only trying to fill the weave.

4) Two coats of Brodak primer go over top of the filler mix to matt out everything, again sanding a percentage of this off.

5) One final light coat of primer is sprayed to matt out the surface ready for colors coats. A light sanding is done to prep for colors.
This is how the Tucano was prepped.

Currell,
5 speed?, ..6 speed? You be shiftin' all the live long day won't cha?. I just won ta git thar, not row a boat.
8 track? We already gots one then thar dually main lines runnin' through town as it is, plus a submarine tunnel under the river for the chew chew trains.

You all gots radio tires? Well I got's one uh them thar aiming and f.m. radidios in the truck as it is. And it plays both kinds of music,..country and western!.

Randy,
Thanks for the kind words.

Tony

Randy · Nov 05, 2002 02:42 PM

#64 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-02 AT 02:46 PM (CDT)

Tony,

Either I don't have as much patience as you or, as I like to put it, I've moved into the 21st century. But up to the cornstarch, I do pretty much the same thing. I use Randolph's (usually nitrate but sometimes butyrate) to attach the CF veil or silkspan. Once firmly attached I LIGHTLY sand it with 400 W/D to knock off the high spots and even out any seams. I then get out the spray gun and shoot a nice, medium coat of Ditzler K-36 catalyzed primer. Stuff dries to touch in about 15 minutes but you should really wait 24 hours of so to sand. The stuff just powders off with 400 W/D but I've taken to using aluminum oxide 320. The stuff doesn't load up as much and you use less sandpaper. Sand off leaving the grain filled. Go back an re-shoot low spots and re-sand until your happy or fed up which ever comes first. Shoot one, light blocking coat (I use straight auto urethane flat gray) and you're ready for paint. Total weight gain from wood to here on a 700 sq. inch plane: 3/4oz if you're mercilous about sanding and use a scale.

Nice to go from bare wood to ready for color in a couple of days.

Randy

Currell · Nov 06, 2002 06:54 AM

#74 source

>8 track? We already gots
>one then thar dually main
>lines runnin' through town as
>it is, plus a submarine
>tunnel under the river for
>the chew chew trains.
>

I like your new bridge, too. And lately, the guards haven't been holding us up at all at the border.

Currell

catdaddy · Nov 05, 2002 01:21 PM

#62 source
>"How much time do you
>spend on your Master Piece?"

>I've not flown one of
>my own for the last
>five years,...but I'm having a
>ball. As pit crew
>for the local cadre I
>make every flying date I
>can, ..and learn something new
>at every turn of the
>prop it seems.
>
>
>Tony


Man, Tony that is the coolest non military profile I've ever seen!!! I'd give it 20 points just from the photos. I really wish I had the ability to create something like that.
I can't believe you haven't flown one of your creations in the last five years. How can you not take this beauty up for a spin.

regards and admiration
catdaddy

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

TigreST · Nov 06, 2002 06:38 AM

RE: How much time to spend on your masterpiece?? (pic_#73 source
Catdaddy,
Thanks for the kind words about the Tucano. How can I not fly it? Simple really, it's not done yet. Some decal work to finish up on the top side, (buzz numbers). The ones pictured are not installed as yet. Same goes for the undersides. Clear coats to follow that work. Then it's on to hardware installs, mounting engine, tank, landing gear, etc. Believe you me, I can't wait to get this puppy in the air, .. Or maybe I can I guess. When the tools are finally put away, I'll need a good weather window for first flights. When this will happen could be next spring as a worst case. In truth all I'll need is a calm clear day, no matter the temp as long as the Super Tigre will fire.

Re: "I really wish I had the ability to create something like that.".

Fact is you have the ability, believe me you do. I'm nothing special in the build department as far a I can tell. But I'd guess that the slow progress that my current life style kinda forces on me ( read:wife and two kids that I love to death, and 12hr shift work, ..nothing out of the ordinary I'd say) helps in some manner. The pit crew duties help to still my desire to rush the work, as I get a dose of castor in the nose when needed. That and having a real good time with the guys at the flying field makes our outings enough for me at this point. Although my limited modeling time really seems to say that I should be rushing to finish something to fly, it ends up I don't, ..can't bring myself to do it. Rush that is. When I focus my energies to put out a desired end product, I just very slowly work the processes to make these desires reality. Fact is, these desires change as the job progresses. Perhaps unlike some, I tend not to cut out a bit of work, or whatever, because it takes to long to do. "Dammit, I'm worth it" (I fool myself with this line manys the time) , so I won't settle for less". More often it's a case of adding to the list of things to do, that generates the end results you see. Given my time constraints only a small part of the process is completed at any one time. If these results are good, fuel is added to the fire to continue on in like fashion. Upsets, like anyone else, slow the process even more. And there have been upsets. It's not as "perfect" as the pictures may lead one to believe. (But I'll do better next time) The Tucano is a first for me, in that the panel lines are the first I've ever done. The results are such a pleasing effect that I think they will become a standard part of my finishing technique. Not looking for 20 points at all here. Just something that is "me" written all over it.

[photo not recovered: 3dc909b00567a411.jpg]

Bottome side shot here.

Tony

Dr Spark · Nov 04, 2002 03:52 PM

#51 source
It's amazing how many "top builders" have responded! I consider myself a "medium builder". But I have a Fancher Trivial Pursuit without any fancy stuff, like fillets, trick cowl, or trick paint: the wings are clear doped (with dye) silkspan. One coat of Brodak White on the fuselage, and molded balsa turtledeck. I'm quite sure it is many ounces lighter than the typical T.P. you will find on the flight line.

Although my T.P. will not be in any front row, I think it flies better than the "heavy iron" necessary for 20 points.

Floyd

Igor Burger · Nov 05, 2002 02:07 AM

#54 source
Will I surprise you I need 7 days to do do my stunter???

Dr Spark · Nov 05, 2002 01:11 PM

#61 source
Igor. Good for you! Simple is best. I really hate cutting and trimming with masking tape. The best models have uncomplicated finishes.

Floyd

Igor Burger · Nov 05, 2002 04:06 PM

#68 source
Floyd, I do not know what you mean as "simple", but I mean this model: http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/thenext.htm

SteveMoon · Nov 06, 2002 11:06 AM

#77 source
40 days. Start to finish on my Impact took 40 days. I fully sheeted the wing; this made finishing much easier and quicker. I also finish with auto paint; once again, very quick. Once I got to the finishing stage it took one day 3 or 4 days to fill and sand, one day to paint, one day to clear, and I flew it the next day.

When we build fun profiles for our Feb. contest I can finish one of those in about 3 - 5 days. I built my second B-25 in 3 days after crashing the original one week before the contest. It has a Gotcha 500 wing core with flaps, which is covered with monokote and painted. The rest is painted with Sig spray dope. A fun to fly plane that didn't take forever to get into the air.

Later, Steve