Let's Talk Overhead Eights

So the key is to get it up on top and to plant yourself so that you don't move. Different people do different things, but, basically, planting your feet about shoulder width, side by side, and leaning over is the "approved" method. Plant yourself, get the plane in front of you directly up wind and get your hand up by your eyes (no, not in front of your eyes) so you can watch the lines as the plane goes up. Point your nose straight up, fly it over your nose, and that becomes your reference point.

The difficult part is that many people can't see far enough behind them, and if you have wind, horrors! In the wind the plane will zoom overhead. Then you have to bring it around and coax it back, and then turn and watch it zoom overhead once again. There will be major portions in this maneuver where the plane will be crabbing in the wind. That's OK as we are trying to fly the nose through the pattern. Concentrate in keeping the nose following the desired flight path even though the airplane is not aimed directly in the direction that it is flying.

But even after you master this, that final turn gets a bunch of people. They start turning before they reach the intersection and the plane ends up going wide, going narrow, going somewhere other than straight overhead. And the flyer never knows it.

While watching other people we noticed Dave Fitzgerald doesn't pivot through the last intersection. He just flies it through, leans back and flies it over his shoulder and brings it back around. We tried that with Matthew and suddenly he got that last intersection down fine. It helps to be a little thinner and flexible to be able to do this, but, remember, you don't need to pull out a square corner at the bottom. You don't even need to hit a 5 foot bottom coming out. The maneuver is finished as soon as you cross the intersection at the very top for the last time. So, if you simply bring it over the top and make a relaxed pull out, that is fine and should have no effect on your score.

This maneuver is so difficult (as evidenced by the number of you who said it was) that I still do not believe it belongs in the Beginner pattern. I feel that the Beginner pattern should be identical to the "normal" pattern but skip the verticals and overheads. In other words, the same as the regular pattern, but no vertical eight, no hour glass, no overhead eight, no clover. Let the beginner practice the other maneuvers, then gradually work the others into his weapons arsenal. When he finally has them all down he can then move up to Intermediate.

The present Beginner pattern was designed for someone who doesn't know how to fly inverted. But if you can't yet even fly inverted, what are you doing attempting to fly an overhead eight! It defies logic. (And besides, how many people do you know who are seriously competing at the Beginner level who do not yet know how to fly inverted?) But that is a question for another thread.

One of the biggest problems in all of these maneuvers is the tendency of the flyer to move before the maneuver is finished. If the flyer moves, his orientation changes and so will his presentation of that particular maneuver in the pattern. Horizontal loops and eights can be just as bad, but then, that is the subject of another thread.

In this instance, however, most people are taught to pivot as the plane flies through the intersection for the last time and completes its flight at the other side of the circle. It has been taught that way for so long because it was thought to be easier (or even necessary). But most people tend to turn just before they reach the top, and, if they do, they will lose their orientation and probably miss their intersection. That intersection is totally important. Hitting a 5 foot bottom at the other end is superfluous. Means nothing. The maneuver is already over. All that is really necessary is to fly through the intersection cleanly and then return to level flight in a smooth fashion (this part not being judged) so you can wait out your next two laps before beginning the clover.

Bill and I beat on him so much to not do the "give up" thing on the last pass, that he had to come up with something. It does takes some flexibility.

Round these parts, we are real pains in the butt about body posture and maneuver positioning, so no one gets away with odd moves in the maneuvers for long. We are also more than willing to rag on each other mercilessly. It's great to have guys to fly with like Ted, David, Bill, and the rest, and feel free to offer advice to guys witha combined 6 National championships and counting without getting into an ego duel.

>
>This maneuver is so difficult (as
>evidenced by the number of
>you who said it was)
>that I still do not
>believe it belongs in the
>Beginner pattern. I feel
>that the Beginner pattern should
>be identical to the "normal"
>pattern but skip the verticals
>and overheads.

I don't see this one. The overhead 8 is one of the most difficult maneuvers to perfect, but it's rarely a problem to get through, so why not? I don't see a lot of wrecks in the overheads. I think the necessity of doing it forces everyone to improve their orientation skills. One of the biggest problems people ahve when beginning is keeping track of where they are on the circle, and this is great for that. It's not like the Hourglass, which is frequently almost impossible with most beginner airplanes in their usual state of trim.

Another topic for a possible separate thread is whether or nothte PAMPA beginner pattern is even a good idea. I know my ole flying buddy/mentor Ed Robbert is a big advocate of it, but I'm less sure.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this Leonard. I don't understand the connection between flying an overhead eight and being able to fly inverted. The overhead eight is just a couple of inside loops tied to a couple of outside loops, and you certainly don't have to know how to fly inverted to do outside loops.

One can do horizontal eights with out being able to fly inverted, and the overhead is just a horizontal flown in an awkward position.

By the way, the rules for the beginners pattern don't DISCOURAGE someone from flying inverted. According to the rules, you do have the choice of approaching the outside loops from either upright or inverted position if you want to. I did learn to fly inverted years ago, and I find it easier to do the outside loops from the inverted position.

Cheers,

My comment is that I feel that learning inverted flight is so fundamental to the learning process, that I teach it (or encourage people to learn how) before doing a whole lot of other stuff. Learn how to fly level and take off and land, learn to do inside loops, learn horizontal eights, time to learn inverted. I don't think one should fool around with trying all of this other stuff without knowing how to fly inverted, period. That's my point. One of the biggest reasons why novice flyers crash is that they get disoriented, or blown out of position or just plainly fall out of whatever they were trying to do. If you start a loop and turn too tight going up and suddeny discover you can't make it, you can give "down" control and come out of it inverted (or complete an eight). But if you start a loop, pull it too tight, and that's all you know what to do, you do a beautiful figure nine right into the ground.

The overhead eight is a "safe" maneuver in that it is far off the ground, but a lot of crashes do occur when it is flown in the wind and one loses tension or orientation. I have seen a lot of beginner's planes get blown out of this maneuver, and, often times if they didn't know how to fly inverted, a crash is going to happen.

I guess this has been my point all along, why do we have a crippled pattern with the assumption that it can be flown by someone who doesn't know how to fly inverted, when everyone either does or certainly should know before they even get this far? That's what, in my opinion, defies logic.

I don't think anyone is saying anything against having an entry level division, one where people can be taught and learn. We all need to start somewhere. I would just like to see it taught with the pattern maneuvers that make more sense (to my little brain anyway.)

You nailed it, Leonard. After learning to take-off, fly, and land, the next two rites-of-passage are inverted flight and the inside loop. Probably the inside loop first.

Then you are on your way to flying CL. I can't believe people really enter contests who can't fly inverted! Well, maybe some of the race guys, but I never even knew one of those who couldn't.

Ability to fly inverted should be a given in any "stunt" pattern worthy of the name.

My own sense of what inverted flying is all about is that it does BELONG fairly early in the maneuver-learning process, and while I don't consider the Overhead Eight anything like as difficult as a sharp- cornered figure of any kind, I understand Leonard's thought somewhat. The implementation of the odd sequence and selection of maneuvers for a separate Beginners' Pattern came at some point when I wasn't keeping in good contact with what was happening in the stunt world.

My membership in PAMPA has lapsed several times for various reasons, mostly financial shortages, in the 25 years or so since we started that organization. Among the folks in the hobby, one that I always looked up to has withdrawn from stunt competition because his back is too poor to allow him to perform the Overhead stuff like this eight. When I was first starting to enter more than one or two PA events a year, Jack Sheeks' prolific articles in Flying Models made me want to do the things he was doing.

(Maybe not to create the repeated divots in the church parking lot that he seemed to be constantly punching into the asphalt!)

The one repeated fault I've found myself doing with this one is letting it expand in size and dip too low on the ends, and that type seems to be an "attractive error" that I think I've seen others doing, although I haven't judged patterns at enough contests, enough times, to feel confident about how often other fliers let it happen with their overhead eights.

P.S. (added in Edit) I tried to stick with the main topic, despite a mention that flying Inverted shouldn't be considered such a problem, but Larry's response was posted before mine, and I can't let this bit from him get past:

"I can't believe people really enter contests who can't fly inverted!"

In 1954 or 1955, I couldn't fly a complete lap inverted yet, but I began entering combat contests anyway. I was a Junior, and it seemed to me that it wasn't a handicap. Before I was a Senior (within perhaps a year if I started in 1955), I had progressed to having flown the entire stunt pattern of 1955, with no problems flying inverted for as long and as many laps as I wanted to. And that shouldn't be taken out of context - some of the 1955 stuff I had "flown" probably wouldn't have been recognizable unless the onlooker knew what it was supposed to be!

Kiwi

>Larry's response was posted before
>mine, and I can't let
>this bit from him get
>past:
>
>>"I can't believe people really enter
>>contests who can't fly inverted!"
>
>
>In 1954 or 1955, I couldn't
>fly a complete lap inverted
>yet, but I began entering
>combat contests anyway. I
>was a Junior, and it
>seemed to me that it
>wasn't a handicap.

Wow, do I sound like some kind of elitist, pompous snob? I would say so! It is amazing how different what we write reads when someone else reads it. Let me explain --

My first prejudice is that management, whether in government, large corporations, or fun organizations like PAMPA and AMA spend most of their time solving problems that don't exist. Let me give you a couple of quickie examples from the company that I work for.

First company example was parking stickers to make sure no non-employees parked in our parking lot. What, people are going to park in our lot so they can walk three miles to the nearest convenience store?

Second company example was showing IDs when you came to work. What, afraid that people would sneak in and work for no wages?

Anyway, my point was SUPPOSED to be that perhaps the rulemakers were doing a good job of solving a non-existant problem. From your comments, perhaps I was wrong.

Sounds like you and I started flying competitively about the same time. In our club, it wasn't a rule or anything, but it was an accepted fact that being able to do something like a pattern, including inverted flight, was a prerequisite to entering a contest. I made the leap that what we did was a universal truth. Your story tells me I am wrong.

What do we do next, say you don't have to do loops? Let's just take off, judge one complete lap for level flight, and land. Whoever does it the smoothest wins this contest. It is, after all, a maneuver in the rule book. Don't judge the landing, however. They might bounce that one.

The next time you go to a contest, ask all of the contestants in Beginner if any one of them cannot fly inverted. I have. They can. Why do we need to cripple the pattern for something that neither does nor should exist?

First, you are preaching to the choir. Second, I don't think rules matter all that much. Third, we are in the wrong thread. Fourth, you are getting a little bitter -- hey, this is for fun, remember?

My problem doing the overheads stems from when I pass directly overhead in the first eight. I tend to rotate my head somewhat to the right then to the left the in the outside portions of the manuver. I do this because I don't believe I can make adequate visual contact with the aircraft to get the 45's and shaping right without doing this. Then when coming back to the center sometimes I loose track of where the model was on it's original pass overhead and miss the intersection, probably because I couldn't keep my head still and be able to see the plane at the outside portion of the manuver. Know any good tricks to keep from having to move my head around?

Thanks,

Learning to fly inverted early, before the muscle memory for flying upright is well established, sounds like a good idea.

The square inside loop is not hard to fly; after all, it's just a very bad round loop.

I was taught to do the overheads very different than anyone has mentioned here. I position my body 1/4 lap ahead of the plane and plant my feet waiting for the plane to get due UP WIND with my toes facing DOWN WIND, and fly the manuever with my back to the judges. The hardest part of doing it this way is getting the timing right and having the flexibility at the waist to do the climb into the overhead. I have always flown it this way, and I think it gives an advantage, since if you are going to bias the manuver in front of you a little, at least you are biasing it DOWN WIND, which is in my field of view, instead of behind my head, and you get the added benefit of a litte more line tension.

Some people may find it a little akward at first, doing the inside loop first on your left, but it may be worth it for those of you experimenting with other ways. Maybe this one is better for you! It works for me!

Let me know if you or anyone else tries it, or already has.
EricV