Stuka Stunt Control Line Forum
Archive, 2000–2021 · recovered from the Internet Archive
Forums › Stuka Stunt Main Forum

Hate t o Paint, Love to Design

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 40 of 40 known posts recovered

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 11:50 AM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-02 AT 11:52 AM (CDT)

I really go like a house afire when I dream up a new model. I draw and plan, build mockups and erase, copy and edit drawings. I just can't wait to see what my new airplane will actually look like. I get it to this stage


[photo not recovered: 3ddfbf090506a505.jpg]


and hit a brick wall. My curosity is satisfied by seeing tha airplane in its all together and it is really difficult for me to continue with the hundreds of details necessary to complete the construction, and I don't want to even think about the hours still to be spent sanding. And if these two aren't bad enough, I have the 90% profile Bearcat at about the same stage with all of the major parts completed including the fully sheeted wing. Heaven only knows when that will fly. I need some cheap labor living in Dallas who just loves to sand.

Al

Ty M> · Nov 23, 2002 12:27 PM

#1 source
My son lives just south of Dallas and I have friends living there. Just how cheap are we talking?? Texas I can handle, but Alabama leaves a lot to be desired. I don't mind sanding, it's all the planning that drives me up the wall. Ty

Curt Contrata · Nov 23, 2002 01:25 PM

#2 source
Get Godzilla to do one.

He does them start to shinny finish in just 8 hours!

Curt

godzilla · Nov 26, 2002 11:52 AM

#27 source
>Get Godzilla to do one.
>
>He does them start to shinny
>finish in just 8 hours!
>
>
>Curt

Not normally, just the Shear Panic, and Doug helped mask.

I spent a month on the Zone. I am starting to ask WHY?

The City Smasher

John Kelinkse · Nov 23, 2002 01:33 PM

RE: Hate to Paint, Love to Design#3 source
Well if I lived up that way, I'd do if for you for free; just to have a small hand in a master's work.
Al: your stuff is beautiful, and you don't get older, but like a fine wine just better. I am NOT trying to flatter you, sure I DON'T agree with you on everything, but I know a good clean stream to swim up when I see one.

Best!

JAK

S.F. · Nov 23, 2002 01:45 PM

#4 source
>...and I don't want to even think about the hours still to be
>spent sanding.

Me too. I *hate* sanding. Not that it just dull, tedious,
boring, and a general pain in the butt.
Making it worse is my apparent allergy to balsa dust.
Even wearing a mask, I start coughing, sneezing,
and often end up with a sinus infection.
What fun.

JAK · Nov 23, 2002 02:05 PM

Sanding#5 source
Doesn't faze me in the least; it is part of the fun.
If you are creating art there is no such thing as tedious and boring.
Balsa dust and sneeze???
You haven't lived until you have inhaled a lungfull of HobbyPoxy Clear...


JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 02:15 PM

RE: Sanding#6 source
You haven't lived until you sheet wings with me. I dribble CA through the open wing trailing edge and let it run down along the rib/sheeting contact point. The smoke arising from my wing would kill a full grown elk. One of these days, I'll get smart enough to do it with a fan.

Has anybody noticed that I get most prolific with Stuka Stunt posts when I don't want to go build? Any excuse in a storm.

Al

John Kelinske · Nov 23, 2002 03:25 PM

RE: Sanding#7 source
Let me know when you get ready to do this again, I'll figure out a way to get up there and help you.
I'll snort the fumes, you just do all the hard, clever work and fly it, ok???

Best!

JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 05:45 PM

RE: Sanding#15 source
John,
Where the heck were you when I was sheeting the Critical Mass and profile Bearcat wings in Richard Olivers garage weekend before last? I could have used some fire breathing (CA's a bitch isn't it) help with my wings. Richard was too smart. He observed from a distance.
Al

John Kelinske · Nov 26, 2002 09:14 PM

Excuses...#29 source
>John,
>Where the heck were you when
>I was sheeting the Critical
>Mass and profile Bearcat wings
>in Richard Olivers garage weekend
>before last? I could
>have used some fire breathing
>(CA's a bitch isn't it)
>help with my wings.
>Richard was too smart.
>He observed from a distance.
>
>Al

Well...

1. I didn't know you were doing this.

2. You are absolutely correct, other than CS (tear gas) nothing makes my eyes water up quite like it.

One suffers for one's art. The final results WILL be a master's work, and a joy to behold though.

JAK

grzly23 · Nov 23, 2002 03:37 PM

RE: Sanding#8 source
Al,

Have you tried the aliphatic resin technique that is use to glue balsa skins to foam cores? The surface of the foam core is covered with 50/50 thinned Titebond/Water as well as the inside of the balsa wing skin, allowed to dry, then the two are put together and a hot iron is run over the surface of the skin polymerizing the glue. Result is a joined core and skin. Might the same work for you?

Tom McClain

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 05:34 PM

RE: Sanding#12 source
Tom,
First, I would never build a foam wing. In my opinion, they are just too heavy to work within my limits on all up weight. Second, I'm afraid I couldn't trust the heat bonded joints. Maybe the joint is solid, maybe. did the resined sheeting line up with the ribs? Can you be sure? Does resin on the sheeting plus resin on the ribs weigh less than a CA joint? In any case I watch every inch of my sheeting actually bond, as I watch and hold the sheeting in positive contact using my fingers and masking tape. there is no possibility that there is even a fraction of an inch of sheeting that has less than a perfect bond. This is why I developed a wing construction with an open trailing edge. the trailing edge opening is only used for the last inch or so of the bottom wing skin. The rest of the wing is quite open while gluing. The result is instant bonding, no pins, no waiting, no wondering if the bond is good. All of the wing construction is accomplished, including all of the sheeting while the wing is held rigidly, in perfect alignment, in a jig. I developed this construction method so that the wing could be built in one long continious building session without having to wait for glue to dry. This construction was part of the effort to build BBQB's (Big Bearcat Quick Build) primary structure in about 40 hours.

I considered doing an article on the BBQB wing construction but lacked necessary photos to visualize the process. the BBQB wing also utilizes a new bellcrank mounting which I'm proud of. It is quick to build, light and very strong.

But, having said all of the above, I appreciate your imput and desire to help.
Thanks Tom
Al

grzly23 · Nov 23, 2002 07:59 PM

RE: Sanding#19 source
Al,

I can't argue with success. The only drawback that I see is the smoke from the CYA as it kicks. I have experienced many a teary eye and stuffed up nose from it. Guess the fix is to have a fan going that blows the stuff away from you as you apply it.

By the way, your strikeoff of your Sea Fury is impressive. Sure you won't come back and blow all of our socks off? Can't wait to see this one fly. I will buy breakfast and dinner at the diner in Carmichaels PA at the Brodak for you and your wife if you show.

Tom McClain

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 08:10 PM

RE: Sanding#20 source
Tom,
If I get there, I'll hold you dto it.
Al

godzilla · Nov 26, 2002 11:57 AM

RE: Sanding#28 source
>Tom,
>First, I would never build a
>foam wing. In my
>opinion, they are just too
>heavy to work within my
>limits on all up weight.

On your wings, with dihedral and scale like root sections, this would probaly be true.

Under normal conditions, with a standard wing. This is not true.

Poly U glue has changed all that for me at least.

The City Smasher

Richard_Spurling · Nov 23, 2002 05:35 PM

RE: Sanding#13 source
>Have you tried the aliphatic resin
>technique that is use to
>glue balsa skins to foam
>cores? The surface of
>the foam core is covered
>with 50/50 thinned Titebond/Water as
>well as the inside of
>the balsa wing skin, allowed
>to dry, then the two
>are put together and a
>hot iron is run over
>the surface of the skin
>polymerizing the glue. Result
>is a joined core and
>skin. Might the same
>work for you?
>
>Tom McClain

G'day Tom,

I've done this on test pieces and it's never worked very well for me. All I can think is that with a foam skin, you've got so much contact area it doesn't matter if it doesn't stick properly. Of course, I might be doing it all wrong or am using the wrong glue - we don't get Titebond here in Oz but I was using Great Planes Aliphatic - can't imagine there's much difference.

mccoy40 · Nov 25, 2002 09:15 AM

RE: Sanding#26 source
I've done the shheeting this way and it holds very wel .Titiebond was my glue of choice and I've done the 50/50 watering down. The thing I find is that with titebond watered down like that you do have the time to even stick the wing skins on without the ironing process. If after untaping the wing, (i actually use ace bandages) you find that there was some lifting of the wing skin from the core. then the Iron Technique is very helpful in rebonding the skins to the foam core.
I've also tried Tom Dixons method of CYAing the skins to the core and it is reasonable easy as well. The difference between the two is the cya process is quicker but less forgiving because you can't rebond CYA. So you spend more time upfront making sure your allignment is correct etc.

S.F. · Nov 23, 2002 03:49 PM

RE: Sanding#9 source
>Balsa dust and sneeze???

It's the sinus infections which are nasty.
After finishing a plane earlier this year,
I got a sinus infection which wouldn't
go away. Ended up in the hospital.

The worst part was the bill.
$1500. My insurance only picked up
$900. The only upside was the Vicodin
for pain, I now know why Brett Favre
got addicted to the stuff.

So that plane turned out to be
*quite* expensive. To add insult to
injury, it was wrecked in a crash in Sept.

I haven't built anything since then.

jobellcrank · Nov 23, 2002 04:15 PM

#10 source
Al, I'm sure by the posts answering you, that you'll find the help you have asked for. (in a way) I know many of us would enjoy an apprenticeship in the art of modelwork at your shop. But, just in case there's no one forthcoming in a reasonable time frame, may I offer the following. It works for me.

I too seem to hit a wall at various stages in the process. I laid off building for a few years as I was just too busy. (My excuse) Finally I began to run out of good planes to fly, and I so enjoy competition and most especially the people who also compete. This means that I have to go into a building program this winter.

So, how do I get around my own, self imposed limitations? Simply, I try to not think about all the work involved, rather establish that I will work on the project for at least 15 minutes a day. Anyone can find 15 minutes to work on a project.

I find that sometimes, it's difficult to put in that 15 minutes. Other times, the 15 minutes stretches out to more as I get into the project. Especially if I get into a portion of the process that I enjoy.

I started my current building sessions this past August, and have been able to complete, and trim out one new plane. I'm now into the finishing phases of a second plane, and have at least two more to start and complete, as well as repairs and modifications on three of my older planes. Looking at the schedule on the whole, I would probably not do it, but, looking at it as 15 minute bites, I just may complete them all this season.

I do hope to see you finish these designs as they are truely worthwhile and works of art.

Best wishes,

John Miller

JAK · Nov 23, 2002 05:18 PM

20 minutes#11 source
"So, how do I get around my own, self imposed limitations? Simply, I try to not think about all the work involved, rather establish that I will work on the project for at least 15
minutes a day. Anyone can find 15 minutes to work on a project."


I recall an article in (I THINK!) the late great Model Builder, where the author had talked about building a FF Scale (Rubber) Waco Taperwing bipe as a boy.
He stated that he spent the free 20 minutes he had in the morning between gettng up, bathing, dressing, eating breakfast with the family and rushing off to school, to glue and slip the parts he had cut the nite before into the wing rib jig. Eventually, he got the model built; despite the fact that only two of each rib in all four wings were exactly the same. He was so excited to see the project done, it was all he thought about.
Ya'll just does what ya'll gotta does...


JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 05:40 PM

RE: 20 minutes#14 source
I don't have 20 minutes in the morning. I like to sleep too much. I'm lucky if I'm running no more than 10 - 15 minutes late. My wife is the same. I always thought the Irving police cleared traffic for her to get to work on time.
Al

JAK · Nov 23, 2002 05:53 PM

RE: 20 minutes#16 source
>I don't have 20 minutes in
>the morning. I like
>to sleep too much.
>I'm lucky if I'm running
>no more than 10 -
>15 minutes late. My
>wife is the same.
>I always thought the Irving
>police cleared traffic for her
>to get to work on
>time.
>Al


I'm a "morning person". Up long before dawn, cranked up and ready to roll. Better hand me what you need done before noon and we can rock! Otherwise I can go with you on the 10-15 minutes late!
Miss the slot, and and you sit in traffic!


See ya!

JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 05:58 PM

RE: 20 minutes#17 source
Excuse me for being a blabber mouth on this thread. I just had a farther thought about jigging during construction. I guess its fairly common knowledge that I build molded fuselages in a fuselage jig and wings in a wing jig. I thought it might be informative to show wing jigs and fuselage jigs can be mated to insure absolutely perfect alignment. It olso invites the use of a stab alignment jig which holds the stab perfectly level from tip to tip and with the designed incidence. The trailing edge of the stab is located by the jig vertical supports.


[photo not recovered: 3de0158e568471cc.jpg]

Al

John Kelinske · Nov 23, 2002 06:13 PM

RE: 20 minutes#18 source
>Excuse me for being a blabber
>mouth on this thread.
>I just had a farther
>thought about jigging during construction.
> I guess its fairly
>common knowledge that I build
>molded fuselages in a fuselage
>jig and wings in a
>wing jig. I thought
>it might be informative to
>show wing jigs and fuselage
>jigs can be mated to
>insure absolutely perfect alignment.
>It olso invites the use
>of a stab alignment jig
>which holds the stab perfectly
>level from tip to tip
>and with the designed incidence.
> The trailing edge of
>the stab is located by
>the jig vertical supports.
>
>
>[photo not recovered: 3de0158e568471cc.jpg]
>
>Al

And the Guy that does good happy stuff like this wants to know where to get decals to finish his model?
This is a lot like Picasso asking the nearest handy peasant where you go to buy paint and canvas...

JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 23, 2002 08:14 PM

RE: 20 minutes#21 source
John,
Would that everyone had your talent for recgonizing true genius at work.
Al

Iskandar Taib · Nov 25, 2002 02:17 AM

RE: 20 minutes#25 source
Was it in one of Bill Winter's columns? There was this thing called "Purple Plan One". Basically, the idea was to glue ONE piece in place each night, before going to bed. He had the wing built in about a month.

John Kelinske · Nov 26, 2002 09:17 PM

P.P.O.#30 source
>Was it in one of Bill
>Winter's columns? There was this
>thing called "Purple Plan One".
>Basically, the idea was to
>glue ONE piece in place
>each night, before going to
>bed. He had the wing
>built in about a month.
>

Thanks Isky!
Yep! That was it as I recall.

JAK

Proparc · Nov 24, 2002 09:20 PM

#22 source
Al, you know this thread is just to make us go bananas for one of you profile Bearcats! Okay, it worked, I want to make one!

"I don't know about this tuned pipe business. I practiced on that thing until my lips turned blue, and I still can't play a stinkin note."
"Homer J. Simpson"

Milton Graham\Proparc

Al Rabe · Nov 24, 2002 10:56 PM

#23 source
Proparc,
Check with me again when you see the airplane completed, which could take some time to finish the airplane, test and trim it, make corrections as indicated, and draw the plans. Sorry I can't help now. when the time finally arrives, I have been shooting videos of the construction. I'll keep posting its progress.
Al

John Kelinske · Nov 26, 2002 09:32 PM

Bearcat paint#31 source
>Proparc,
>Check with me again when you
>see the airplane completed, which
>could take some time to
>finish the airplane, test and
>trim it, make corrections as
>indicated, and draw the plans.
> Sorry I can't help
>now. when the time
>finally arrives, I have been
>shooting videos of the construction.
> I'll keep posting its
>progress.
>Al

What the paint plan?
My feeling is that the most beautiful scheme ever applied to a Bearcat was that on the late Bill Fornof's lovely copper, black and white F8F. I saw him perform at the '68 Olathe Nats, and will never forget it. "Gulfhawk 4th" is probably a close 2nd.
What are you going to paint the '51???
How about the late Ed Weiner's black and white checkerboard "Miss Bardahl"?
How about some of the neat schemes of the '51 in Latin American air forces service.
Just food for thought.

JAK

Al Rabe · Nov 26, 2002 11:04 PM

RE: Bearcat paint#32 source
John. The Fornof's bearcats in the bronze finishes were pretty. I've talked to Corky about the airplanes. They had two with similar paint schemes. Corky's dad was killed in one of them so the subject is sensitive. We belong to the same pilots orginization. as for other paint job of racers, the big problem is that almost all of them have small canopys. A semi scale stunmt stunt ship needs all of the identifying characteristics of the original we can possibly include. when we depart from the classic lines of the real airplane we quickly lose its character. I would consider one of the earlier racer finishes which still have the full size canopy. There was a red and white one with a gold stripe which would make a beautiful model. Also, what do you do about clipped wings? There is just no way to do clipped wings justice in a stunt ship. I tried to design a clipped wing appearance for the Critical Mass but it just didn't work and I reverted to the l970-1975 Sea fury wing with its wonderful eliptical shape. Attempts to show it clipped were just too ugly for words. scale like or no, the high aspect ratio Sea Fury wing with its outboard dihedral breaks has an elegance about it that made the model Sea Fury popular. When designing a semi scale airplane for competition, we are terribly limited by the clash of design objectives, but every now and again, there presents an opportunity to actually improve the appearance of some aspect of the original airplane. the dorsal fin of my BBQB is nothing like the real airplane, it looks better and contributes to the overall pleasing appearance of the stunt ship.
You know, I may just use that red and white finish on the profile Bearcat.
Al

John Kelinske · Nov 26, 2002 11:42 PM

RE: Bearcat paint#33 source
>John. The Fornof's bearcats in
>the bronze finishes were pretty.
> I've talked to Corky
>about the airplanes. They
>had two with similar paint
>schemes. Corky's dad was
>killed in one of them
>so the subject is sensitive.
>We belong to the same
>pilots orginization. as for
>other paint job of racers,
>the big problem is that
>almost all of them have
>small canopys. A semi
>scale stunmt stunt ship needs
>all of the identifying characteristics
>of the original we can
>possibly include. when we
>depart from the classic lines
>of the real airplane we
>quickly lose its character.
>I would consider one of
>the earlier racer finishes which
>still have the full size
>canopy. There was a
>red and white one with
>a gold stripe which would
>make a beautiful model.
>Also, what do you do
>about clipped wings? There
>is just no way to
>do clipped wings justice in
>a stunt ship. I
>tried to design a clipped
>wing appearance for the Critical
>Mass but it just didn't
>work and I reverted to
>the l970-1975 Sea fury wing
>with its wonderful eliptical shape.
> Attempts to show it
>clipped were just too ugly
>for words. scale like
>or no, the high aspect
>ratio Sea Fury wing with
>its outboard dihedral breaks has
>an elegance about it that
>made the model Sea Fury
>popular. When designing a
>semi scale airplane for competition,
>we are terribly limited by
>the clash of design objectives,
>but every now and again,
>there presents an opportunity to
>actually improve the appearance of
>some aspect of the original
>airplane. the dorsal fin
>of my BBQB is nothing
>like the real airplane, it
>looks better and contributes to
>the overall pleasing appearance of
>the stunt ship.
>You know, I may just use
>that red and white finish
>on the profile Bearcat.
>Al

Al,

I understand... I just will never forget Bill at Olathe in '68 come streaking in at full bore on the deck and pull straight up right in front of the crowd and do a vertical roll almost into the cloud base. You could hear the growl of the incoming airplane several seconds before you could see it. He got a lot of ohhs and ahhs over that one. I watched him taxi back in after his routine, canopy open and that big polished prop ticking over like a Swiss watch to the applause (deserved) of the crowd (me included). What a memory...
"Miss Bardahl" as far as I know was "box stock" with no major mods. I remember reading the guy that painted her said his shop laid out the checkerboard scheme four times before he got it right. He swore he would never do another one.
Hey red and white is always pretty, and one of my favourites!

John

Randy · Nov 25, 2002 01:13 AM

#24 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-02 AT 01:23 AM (CDT)

I know what you mean, Al, I know what you mean. I have a Simon's Shoestring sitting in the rack just begging me to sand on it. It just sits there in primer complaining that I don't play with it anymore.

I suspect I'll get to it before next season, but I just haven't had the inclination. I'm too busy with my new PA ship. Just can't wait to see what it's going to look like all assembled.

I think I go through phases of interest. When I'm in a painting mood, I don't mind sanding away. Just not in the mood yet.

I'm using a fuse plane jig based loosely (vbery loosely) on the millinium wing construction jig. Hold the fuse, wing and stab. Seems to work pretty well.

Randy

Al Rabe · Nov 27, 2002 09:18 AM

#34 source
Randy,
If you can, post a picture of your jig with an sirplanae in it, if possible. We can all use good ideas about how to build straight, even those of us already using jigs.
Al

Al Rabe · Nov 27, 2002 11:38 AM

#35 source
John,
Do you go for ugly paint schemes, ot what?

You like checkered P-51's like this?

[photo not recovered: 3de501a9620b2c8c.jpg]

Or how about stripes like this?


[photo not recovered: 3de5021b62d3239f.jpg]

What have you got against pretty, like this?

[photo not recovered: 3de502846330614f.jpg]

Maybe this would make a good paint scheme for my profile Bearcat

Al

JAK · Nov 27, 2002 08:38 PM

#37 source

>
>Maybe this would make a good
>paint scheme for my profile
>Bearcat
>
>Al


Probably so.
Actually my favourite racing P-51 scheme was that on "Beguine", but that of course was a highly modified "C" and not a "D" model.

John

Al Rabe · Nov 28, 2002 11:29 AM

#38 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-02 AT 11:35 AM (CDT)

John,
I don't think you will ever see a realistic semi-scale Beguine stunt ship.

[photo not recovered: 3de64bbd3476da1c.jpg]

In 1968, when revising the design of the Mustang 1 which was painted in the scheme of Trans Florida Cavalier in red and white, I made some aerodynamc changes to the design and introduced the first ever sliding block leadout adjustment. I also wanted to make a visually more striking model by adding the tip tanks most Trans Florida Cavaliers were equipped with.

[photo not recovered: 3de64d3535d31160.jpg]

I carved two tanks, each about 2" dia. and 9" long and tried them on my Mustang 2. They just didn't work visually. The wing tip of the stunt Mustang wing was extremely thick by comparison to that of the real airplane. On the model, there was so little of the tip tank showing above and below the wing on the inboard side, it ruined the appearance of the tip tank. I published the Mustang 2 in June 1969 without the tip tanks but used the red and white Trans Florida Cavalier paint job again.
It was just as well. I was reaching too far to try to add visual interest ot my airplane. The tanks would have been heavy, even hollowed paper thin, draggy, and would have contributed nothing to the performance of the airplane as a competitive stunt ship beyond a small tip plate effect which wouldn't begin to offset their disadvantages.

The Beguine would suffer the same disadvantages.

Al

Randy · Nov 27, 2002 12:14 PM

#36 source
Al,

I'm about ready to re-assemble the whole jig to get the wing aligned with the fuse. When I get it together for this, I'll take a picture.

Randy

Bob Smiley · Nov 30, 2002 10:19 PM

#39 source
Hate to paint love to build. I can identify with that. When building the Lancair 360, I logged over 800 hours in body and primer work filling in fiberglass weave, preping seams and fillet work and mucho detail work ad infinitum. Thinking all was ready for the paint shop; I was fortunate to find a shop that would allow me to work with them. I logged another 230 hours prep and detail work hours to their 120 hours of prep and shoot. Go figure. It takes a lot of time to do a finish the right way. Many plane builders say they are 90% done 90% to go and they are right. When you have an airframe that looks like a plane it is much like a house with the frame and shell on. You are just beginning.

So when you do your model building a paint scheme, well done takes a more significant amount of time that one estimates. Thats why we hat it soooo much because it must be done before we can be fullfilled and say. It finished, let's go fly.

Bob Smiley
a Lancair 360 builder/ flyer trying to be a modeler