Trash FAI - God bless America!!

The US is the Stunt Country!

More stunt is flown in a week in the US than in all the rest of the world together...

I don't want no Retro's, gimme a PA engine, a Werwage pipe!

"Gringo-style" stunt is harder, small and sharp. More trim problems.

All the good stuff is in the US. Tanks, engines, kits, you name it!

Plus Bob Hunt, Bill werwage, Paul Walker, Gieseke, Aldritch, Dave, Fancher, Brett, and so many!

Who is Xang Lang? Send him to Muncie...

There should be an American World Champoinship, non-FAI... Every year!

I'm afraid I'll pass on this one, thanks...
One of the things that has always appealed to me about airplanes (model or otherwise) is their international character that like all great art, transcends barriers of geography or language or time.
I hardly need point out that there are a whole list of great stunt fliers of other lands outside the USA, past and present; Klaus Maikis of Germany, Tony Warburton of England, Kaz Minoto in Japan, etc. etc. etc. (I apologize if I mis-spelled any names here!).

Incidentally, I tried to reply privately but you'd chosen not to provide an email address.

Richard
http://www.richardspurling.com

I'm really not sure wether to take your post seriously or not.

If its tongue in cheek then fine by all means have your fun but take it from me, your humor is at best clumsy and misguided, and at worst, ignorant and offensive. As it is, you just come across like a mental Tom Thumb.

The US has a fantastic amount to be proud of, and is a great country. Its record in Stunt is without peer. It is NOT the center of the Universe.

Your kind of jingo jibberish is counter productive and offensive to anyone with any knowledge or respect for folks anywhere else in the world. That also, by the way, contribute to this newsgroup and hobby.

You refer to Mssrs Hunt, Fancher, Buck, amongst others that I have had the great pleasure to meet; I know that the one World Champ among them does not have any of your myopic attitude, having experienced the international competition scene first hand. Would you reduce his achievement by belittling the standard of other countries?

To be the best you have to rise above the rest. True competitiveness arises from a pursuit of excellence, not keeping score with the other guy. So WHAT IS YOUR POINT???

How many US 4 stroke mfrs are there?? What about those Australian pipes & propellors?? Then there's Chinese, Japanese or Italian, even British engines?? Patriotism is a good thing when kept in perspective, but your patriotism has crossed the line into self serving Nationalism. Its a dangerous and stupid stance to take anywhere about anything, particularly when it comes to model airplanes. Would you have the Muncie Nats called a World Series?? ( I think so) We all know who the world champ is. And its not an American. Give us all a break and pull yourself together.

Further more, the FAI as an international body provides the infrastructure for the very highest level of achievement in aviation sports. It creates the environment where folks from around the world can meet and compete at the highest level. International competition provides the yardstick for excellence without which all national measures are by definition, relatively meaningless.

Lastly, its worth remembering that American car manufacturers used to think they were peerless, until the Japanese pulled the rug from underneath them. Dont make the mistake of dismissing international competition as the gold mark for excellence just because you are lucky enough to live somewhere where the indigenous standard is very high. If you neglect it, your standards will drop. If you believe your own press, you delude yourself. Remember Detroit.

Ion; like it or not, its an international world you live in.

Deal with it.

Peter

>Too much worry about FAI...
>
>The US is the Stunt Country!
>
>
>More stunt is flown in a
>week in the US than
>in all the rest of
>the world together...
>
>I don't want no Retro's, gimme
>a PA engine, a
>Werwage pipe!
>
>"Gringo-style" stunt is harder, small and
>sharp. More trim problems.
>
>All the good stuff is in
>the US. Tanks, engines, kits,
>you name it!
>
>Plus Bob Hunt, Bill werwage, Paul
>Walker, Gieseke, Aldritch,
>Dave, Fancher, Brett, and so
>many!
>
>Who is Xang Lang? Send him
>to Muncie...
>
>There should be an American World
>Champoinship, non-FAI... Every year!
>
>Ion

What I don't get is that he lives in Brazil...
I'm hoping it was a farce.

I am hoping so too; though if so it was definitely a farce chosen in the poorest of taste.

Notwithstanding the potential for being 'goaded', those type of comments deserve all the vitriol they receive. I stand by my comments.

About the chinese, if I knew I had to win or else I'd be diggin' latrines in the Gobi desert, I'd sure practice...

You guys don't know what the US is...

All I learned about stunt was from the US modelers.

Please relax, I'm not Bin Laden...

Europe? Museums... Of course there is the french guy, and Compostella, but...

China? NO HUMAN RIGHTS! And I am willing to lay one to ten that the world champ can't fly like a good (advanced is enough) US pilot. Bring him to the NATS...

Over here, there is Bene Rodrigues, very good, too...

It's strange people got ofended.. It's the thruth...

What can we learn from Xang Lang? To fly nose heavy ?

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I don't think this thread should be talken seriously, nor in all honesty "progress' much farther.
Given the current state of the US "government" it's probably best I don't say anything about what I think of "rights" human or otherwise in this country.

JAK, if you just knew what a totalitarian state is...

We had 20 years of military rule in Brazil....

Poindexter's back and we're gonna be in trouble
(hey na, hey na, the spook is back!)

Oh, oops, this is a control-line forum and we don't want the new office of total information awareness getting in our hair, so:

I'm thinking of building another Thunderbird , but I think I want this one straight "classic". Anyone got a strong Veco .35 to spare?

- Dave Pellerin

PS. Sorry... wrong place for a political opinion... I'll shut up now.

- Dave

Sort of funny, but it also makes my posting look less a bit too serious. I'm not looking for a political cat-fight.

- Dave Pellerin

Thats because brackets are used as HTML tags by
the forum software, rather than <tag>.

>>I'm thinking <NSA> of building <OSAMA>
>>another Thunderbird <CIA>, but I
>>think <CLICK, WHIR> I want
>>this one <BUSH, CLINTON, POINTS
>>OF LIGHT> straight "classic". <REAGAN>
>>Anyone got <BOMBING BEGINS> a
>>strong Veco <IN FIVE MINUTES>
>>.35 to spare?

This is very (DELETED BY DEPT. OF HOMELAND
SECURITY AUTO-CENSOR).

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Carthago Delenda Est

You're correct, this is the WRONG place for all this, but I do want to point out that it is largely via good old Uncle Sugar that the Soviet Union survived the inital German onslaught in WW-2. We sent 'em military hardware out the kazoo, so did the Brits. We also helped install Saddam in Iraq and Usama was a CIA asset in Afganistan when it suited us to have it so. We didn't do it as a bulwark against communism (we stabbed Chang Kai-shek and the Nationalist Chinese in the back in 1949, remember?), we did it because it suited long range plans which are now coming to fruition.
BTW, there is NO real difference between a fascist and a communist; both are left-wing totalitarianists, they are just of differnt shades of grey.

Bene & Paulo would be ashamed of your views

I have reasons that I'll not state to be ashamed of Bené...

Ion

[email protected]

As for the Chinese, well, you have to give them credit. I suspect that if stunt fades here, it will keep going in China indefinitely. They are so enthusiastic about CL, at least the few from China I've met. Honestly, I hope to see some kits and more engines coming from China. Since there is apprently some market over there for the kits, we might see some neat stuff coming our way soon! And they don't just make junk any more, either. Not to mention the incredible prices. China could well be the place that keeps CL going after say 10 years from now.

Are you talking about Lin Ping or about Ion?

If it's Lin, I seriously doubt he doesn't know better...

If it's Ion, yes, in a country like Brazil, only the elite can indulge in a hobby like U-control.

Ion has also lived in Europe. And Ion, even though it means nothing to him, has an education, and knows about the world and about life.

About the "incredible prices", if in the US workers got payed like in China... there would be no stunt...: But prices would be "incredible"....

Why don't you jsut come right out and tell us what your real problem is with the champ? If he was British, would you be so concerned?

Ion, what kind of mushrooms did you get for breakfast yesterday?

Geoff

[photo not recovered: 3df70cd0231e928b.jpg]
I recall from an old telegraph I once had that
Alfred E. and Don Martin were 1937 Control Line Universal World Champs Held on Hotspots, Mars.

Paul

[photo not recovered: 3df710082658c00e.jpg]

" It's deja vu all over again"

To me, this looks like satire. In essence, he's simply compiled a list of things people have said here and there in other threads over the last month or two. Everything he's said here, someone else has said before (including the part about sending the current World Champ to Muncie - someone else said something about him not being good enough to place in Advanced at Muncie, or something similar).

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID1/3199.html#10

and no one batted an eyelid! ^_^

See Ya

I made the choice to suggest an answer early in checking the thread out; put my opinion on record before getting deep into the hurt feelings. And I didn't run into anything to contradict my idea.

Not having read more than the headline on this one until just now, and not waiting to read every single one of the responses (and several I did read were from various "non-AMA" messagers from around the world, uniformly aghast), I am aware of something about Brazil and many other nominally US-friendly nations that some might not know.

A very large part of the general population in nations that we have long considered our friends are presently feeling anti- American, or at least anti- George Bush, lately. The official position of our administration on a number of matters, including Iraq, makes these folks unhappy.

I'm betting that Ion has been hearing a goodly share of this anti- American cant in his home country, and has been standing up for us when the subject comes up around the water cooler (or whatever the Brazilian equivilant happens to be).

The number of comments attached to the thread sorta surprised me this time. A majority of the subjects that I ignore will die sooner than this.

Ion has probably already said something to mollify the early respondents from parts of the former British Empire, whose feelings may have been hurt. But I'm going to remind both those good folks and the very few U.S. fliers who occasionally fly on our World Teams, that the vast majority of our CL people like to watch stunt, and to talk about stunt planes, but just don't fly in contests to much of any extent, let alone are they likely to worry about what the FAI's rules differences happen to be.

It's most likely just an academic matter for that group, for whom or to whom, Ion's comments might actually have been addressed. I don't think he was sniping at his compatriot non-USA aerobatic pilots. Some of the other threads that I've mostly ignored, about FAI vs. AMA rules for a big for instance, probably don't really matter much to that ordinary rank and file. Now I will read onward and see how badly (or perhaps the opposite) I've judged his post and the first few comments compared to how the entire long thread has shaken out before I wondered why it was growing so long!

Kiwi

I believe many C/L aerobatics fliers in the rest of the world care very much about the FAI Rules as do many in the US.

I don't think we are overly sensitive about being a "minority" (percieved or real), but exist quite happily despite your rather dismissive contribution.

Thankfully the many fine C/L people I know in the US are generous and hospitable. Perhaps you are too but have a strange way of showing it.

The US flyers would often hold joint fly-ins with locals. For R/C back then the pattern aircraft of choice was the Top Flite Taurus, a Controllair reed radio (digital proportional was only a dream back then) and the new Enya 60 for power.

C/L flyers saw the Nobler in vogue with, what else? - the venerable Fox 35 stunt.

Modeling is an international pastime. That's what makes it cool.

Let me make it very, very clear. Han Xin Ping is an extraordinarily talented stunt flyer and will do just fine at the US nats if he should choose to participate. Poor stunt flyers fly inconsistently and are unpredictable in their presentation as a result. HXP flies exactly the way he wants to with great precision and consistency from flight to flight to flight.

It is true that the style of his flying is not what we in the states are confident reflects the pattern as written. He may find it necessary to modify his priorities to do as well at the US Nats as he has done repeatedly at WCs. I have little doubt that if he chooses to do so he will be very competitive.

What must be recognized is that he in particular and the Chinese team in general have recognized and committed themselves to flying in a manner which appeals to the largely European corps of judges who work at WCs. He flies exceptionally consistent bottoms and intersections and will even fudge sizes and sometimes shapes in order to present these to his greatest advantage. Corners are much less aggressive especially in the corner which terminates in the all important five foot bottom parallel to the ground. Not soft, necessarily, but not the priority.

This is good sound strategy and the effects of doing so are dramatically illustrated in the rankings of F2B finishes since 1982.

I was on the winning US team in those 1982 WCs in Sweden. This was the first year the Chinese competed and they came to learn. Learn they did, by the end of the meet they were in second place as a team and were roundly applauded for their fine performance.

Make no mistake, they won't belong in the Advanced Class let alone intermediate come summer of 2004.

While it is true that some nations around the world are not yet able to field competitive teams at a WC, the number unable to do so decreases every year. PAMPA and the marvelous *world wide* cottage industry that has blossomed as a result of a regular forum such as SN shares a large share of the credit for this.

As, I belive, my good friend Tim Gee mentioned earlier, much of the exceptional level of stunt goodies now available to flyers comes from international sources. Unlike the US which (with the exceptions now of the PAs and Ro-Jetts) seemed alternately blessed and cursed with a plethora of power systems (designed for RC and "modified/detuned" for stunt), international stunt afficianados and developers found niche markets for stunt specific development. As a result, some of the very best stunt stuff in the world now comes from overseas (from a US perspective) and some of the best practitioners in the use of those products come from the same international spectrum.

Yeah, I think there was a time when the US stood head and shoulders above the crowd in CL in general and stunt in particular. Our superiority in the other events eroded fairly rapidly, however, and in stunt lasted only a decade longer.

The question for the US is clearly evolving into whether or not we have sufficient influence in the international community to convince the fraternity that our *more correct* interpretation of the pattern should become the standard by which our champions are selected. (I understand there will be disagreement with that *more correct* phraeseology but stand by the assertion).

Whether we are able to gain such influence or whether we are forced in the final analysis to back off and accept the WC standard is something only the future will tell. What I can predict is that if the rest of the world comes to agree with our interpretation that they will adapt just fine and the event will continue to be competitive to the extreme.

Make no mistake, the Chinese, the French, the Germans, Japanese, Italians, Ukranians, Russians, Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and others are not second class stunt flyers and we would be kidding ourselves to think they do well only because of some sort of anti-American bias. They are very good and they are very tough to beat.

The biggest issue that can and must be addressed (and is in planning for the 2004 event) is the administrative problems that result in too long days and too variable conditions caused by qualifying rounds so long they take over a day to complete even with sun up to sun down duty for the judges and administrators.

It is paramount that a World Class Event should reflect World Class conditions so that individual fliers aren't militated against by fatigue and/or the whims of Mother Nature.

The bottom line is that the top International fliers will do just fine at the US Nats...and the US Team will do just fine at the World Champs. There are "great" fliers both within and outside our borders and the event is richer because of it.

I believe you have had the last word. Your influence (I hope that you will have influence) on the organisation of F2B in 2004 will be truly appreciated by the worldwide stunt community. i'm confident that the US world champs will be one of the best - Bill (lee) is already doing a great job!

Drive that 747 downunder some more!

Tight lines,
Dave

Thanks, Dave. I think progress is being made and that Peter Germann's committee is doing yeoman service in reviewing and debating the merits of much of the event's meatier points of conflict. I give him great credit for undertaking the task.

>It is true that the style
>of his flying is not
>what we in the states
>are confident reflects the pattern
>as written. He may
>find it necessary to modify
>his priorities to do as
>well at the US Nats
>as he has done repeatedly
>at WCs.

He flies
>exceptionally consistent bottoms and intersections
>and will even fudge sizes
>and sometimes shapes in order
>to present these to his
>greatest advantage. Corners are
>much less aggressive especially in
>the corner which terminates in
>the all important five foot
>bottom parallel to the ground.

All of those comments, except maybe the "last corner" softening, really defined the flying style of another great pilot that I was watching at Muncie this year. Despite the fact that he was not flying the American style pattern "as written" he still managed to do very well. I think he won.

So I guess the Chinese would do very well at our Nats wouldn't they? (scratching head) You think?

In regards to the entire thread, I have never seen so many guys react to "Pro-American" sentiment with so much hostility. Ion said nothing differenct than most of the guys who say we don't get a fair shake at the WC anyway. Why hammer him?

I work for a Japanese company, I spout pro-American stuff all the time. I definately "buy American".

Thanks, godzilla...

What really motivated the posting that made such a big wave is that I get bugged with the fact that a sport thas was invented in the US becomes regulated outside the US, and somehow limiting American pilots.

Soccer was inented in England, and even though Brazilians are the penta champions the rules remain the English ones.

Who invented the pattern?

Nowadays FAI forces US pilots to maneuver higher than the 45 degrees (or is it not true that at FAI competitions the standard is higher than that?) and fly smoother.

Guys have to adjust their flying in order to have a chance. True or false?

I'm not against any person, of any race. ethnic group or whatever.

I just think that FAI has been affecting a sport that is as American as apple pie or baseball...

I wasnt to impressed with your first post.

But now you are talking. I feel the very same way. I remember at the 96 nats pilots meeting there was some flap about the FAI rules and I said "Just make them do it our way and move on." I got so many looks and little comments. I was like "What the H%## we invented the darn thing so if they dont like it our way tough." I didnt really understand how it worked then.

But now I know that can never happen. If we as a country want to continue to participate at the WC we have to alter an event which we started and fly it "Their Way" instead of our way. Which we perceive as the right way. Pretty Bogus if you as me.

I have heard other TOP pilots say before that the Chinese will be hard pressed to score well in our Advanced class. This would not be because he cant fly well but because the styles are very different. I choose not to say who told me this but he is high on the list of many who frequent this forum.

There is no doubt Xing can fly and fly really well. I have seen it on video. His bottoms are untouchable but here in the US his corner wouldnt be considered. But hey, he flies what is needed to win. That's the name of the game! He seems to have it wired too!!!

Having them(an FAI pattern vs AMA pattern) seperated seems a bit too much to me any way.

They didnt like BOM so they took it out and some other stuff.

I would say that KILLED THE ORIGINAL EVENT. No BOM. I guess there can be no true spirit of the event. I guess all their winners buy their models? Is it a buy and fly? I think not.

Hey, people like to write rules. Just look all the stuff about motors. I cant believe there is even a restriction in the first place. Why, I have no idea. Just more limitations. They looked at our rules and said we want to do a WC but dont like your rules. So we(FAI) will write our own and I guess we(AMA) just went along with it.

As for the WC taking all day long and into the night and all that just for one round. When they come here there is going to be 4 good circles to use. They got until 2004 to figure out a way and pass an exemption to use all the space avaiable and make the contest go as smooth as possible. If they decide not to utilize all the space then that is their fault if it takes all day and night. We the Americans have shown that 80 pilots can get in two official flights each in one day and be done by 3:30, with good breaks in between round and lunch break too and we use 8 minutes per flight not 7. It will be hot in June 2004 so judges if they dont setup some way to use all the available space bring your Sun Screen cause you are going to need it.

DMoon

You dont seem to have understood my point, or why people got upset with your comments.

Why is it you or others think the US doesnt get a fair shake in world competition? Is it because you're unwilling to adapt to a world style that doesnt match your own ?? Are you so fixated on being right that you would shoot your competitive potential in the foot by choosing not to play the game??

I understand that the 'worlds' system may not be perfect, in organization or consistency and even interpretation. If you find systemic issues, go out and do something to fix them, dont cry 'poor me', claim you invented the rules, expect that that gives you the right to win, and complain bitterly when you dont.

To use your own analogy, the English soccer team plays to the same rule as the Brazilians but they always get beat. Its an issue of the style of play that brings success, not the rules. The english team doesnt blame the rules or try to change them just because they lost. But they have not changed their style and so continue to lose. Insanity. You would emulate this admirable behaviour?

When it comes to an interpretive hobby like stunt, (or ice skating etc for that matter)your job is to fly, the judges
job is to judge, and its your responsibility to know what is expected in order to succeed. If you dont know first time around you'll soon learn. If the style is different between the Walker cup and the Worlds, then by all means have a different judging style for the team trials if thats what will bring success at the worlds. Or just adopt the worlds style and scoring across the US (heresy??) and have done with it. It will certainly make the problem go away.

What you may regard as right or wrong in pattern interpretation is essentially irrelevant. Just make sure you know what passes as the standard for excellence. You already know, you're just complaining about it, and dont want to change. So my point is, that's fine, but just dont expect to win in a worlds if thats what you feel is holding things back.

Why should you be bugged that the US is not automatically the
top of a sport invented here? What notion of sportsmanship
exists in that understandable but unhelpful emotion? Why not be proud that a hobby invented here is adopted world wide? and change with it.

I contend that the best way to be pro-American is to focus on
sportsmanship and adapt to what brings success to the US team, not get into a silly right versus wrong slanging match and point a jealous finger at those who have been smart enough to play the game and win at it.

The option of changing the judging standards also exists, but that needs everyones input, not just the 800lb gorilla in the corner.

I guess its all just a matter of perspective.

Sincerely

Peter

>In regards to the entire thread,
>I have never seen so
>many guys react to "Pro-American"
>sentiment with so much hostility.
>Ion said nothing differenct than
>most of the guys who
>say we don't get a
>fair shake at the WC
>anyway. Why hammer him?
>
>Thanks, godzilla...
>
>What really motivated the posting that
>made such a big wave
>is that I get bugged
>with the fact that a
>sport thas was invented in
>the US becomes regulated outside
>the US, and somehow limiting
>American pilots.
>
>Soccer was inented in England, and
>even though Brazilians are the
>penta champions the rules remain
>the English ones.
>
>Who invented the pattern?
>
>Nowadays FAI forces US pilots to
>maneuver higher than the 45
>degrees (or is it not
>true that at FAI competitions
>the standard is higher than
>that?) and fly smoother.
>
>Guys have to adjust their flying
>in order to have a
>chance. True or false?
>
>I'm not against any person, of
>any race. ethnic group or
>whatever.
>
>I just think that FAI has
>been affecting a sport that
>is as American as apple
>pie or baseball...
>
>
>Ion

>
>I work for a Japanese company,
>I spout pro-American stuff all
>the time. I definately
>"buy American".

I am going dig on you a little here...Saito American???(grin)

DMoon

The number of 4 cycle engine made in the United States are

(drumroll)

ZERO!

My TV is Japanese, we don't make those either. My VCR is a Sony, probably made in Taiwan, and we invented the VCR! I am in manufacturing, I have spent 10 years in the auto building business, this hurts me where I live, believe me.

Probably because this "pro-American" sentiment is highly offensive, and the LAST thing in the world America needs right now.

Pro-American sentiment is offensive? Offensive to who? I am not offended. Isky pointed out the obvious, that Ion has said similar stuff before and no one said a word. Whay are you so offended?

If I had a dime for everyone who ever said "our flyers are better, but we are just getting screwed at the WC's". Or "those guys wouldn't stand a chance at our Nats".

Nothing new said here.

The FAI has really done very little to try to appeal to the mainstream here in the US. I don't see anything wrong with the FAI, but I don't see anything wrong with taking a pro-American stance over a pro-FAI stance. I vacillate back and forth. I like some of the FAI approach to the rules, for example.

As far as Ions use of the word "trash", I don't think that was the right word. I don't think English is his first language though. I think jumping on the guy in huff is, welllll... huffy.

Where did I say pro-American sentiment is offensive? I said this particular piece and the way it is written is. Try reading some of the above posts, you will find few complementary of it, hardly a surprise.
I live in Texas, and even I found it offensive and embarassing because this board goes out on the 'net all over the world, and America has enough ill sentiment built up towards it in other lands without adding to it (even on a minor level).
Fair enough?

What did the guy say that was so offensive?

PA's rule and Retro's suck?

Werwage can outfly Xang?

There are more AMA flyers than FAI flyers?

Half truths or simple opinion, but nothing offensive. As far as how the US is perceived in other lands. Mostly jealousy.

I wouldn"t say Retro's suck, but I'd rather have a PA...

Yes, Billy can outfly Xang, anyday, anytime. You can bet your boots on that...

And another thing, alot of countries out there are offeneded by Pro-American stance and then turn around and ask for our help or money or both. Nothing Ticks me off worse. UN is one of the worst. They are all against us or our stance on things but when they need something done or paid for where do they turn? Why can they come to us? Becuase this Great country where you can offend as you like, think as you like, worship as you like, flourishes. Even with all its short comings and all it crooks it still flourishes. Simply because people are free. Their not trapped by heir government. However some think they are. You can do anything you want in this country.

I been saying it years. People of other countries dont like us well fine then lets come home and leave them to fend for themselves. Then we will see who really offends someone else.

Sorry to rant so but I am just so beaten down by it.

DMoon

I'd be willing to bet that if you got all the FAI and AMA flyers together in the same room with their stuff we'd all be talking and looking and gabbin about it. In the end, we're all just a bunch of modelers with opinions and likes and dislikes and all that stuff. We'd probably have a really good time. We all like airplanes, we all have parts of building em and finishing em that we like and dislike. And all of us in competition, both AMA and FAI, fly a pattern.

Course theirs doesn't look anything like ours, but what the heck.

Look, step away from the keyboard, go down to the shop and pick up the sanding block. You know there is something that needs sanded down there. YES YOU DO!! There's always SOMETHING that needs sanding.

From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733
aka Mr. Clean

Do I have to. I am sick of sanding and I always have so much to do. I can only cough so many times before, I realize I dont have my mask on. Huh...now what does a mask do?

DMoon

You are perfectly entitled to beat the drum, and should be proud to do so.

I dont detect any anti-American thread here, or really any anti-pro-American, if you see what I mean. But being admirably proud of your homeland is different from belittling others efforts.

I believe the reason for the strong responses to Ions postings were not that he is clearly anti-FAI or pro-American, no one really cares, but that he trashed the multiple world champion, their team and by implication the rest of the world.

That gets up peoples noses, particularly when it is transparent rubbish!

None of the response posts that I could see were directed at anything other than Ions outrageous claims - maybe you guys are reading a little too much into it.

I'll bet that if a European had made the same assertion, the same responses would have been aired.

I understand that one of the rules on this forum was that trashing personalities was a no-no.

Please, no more "we wuz robbed", can we get back to models & flying?

This is Leonards board, and out of respect for that I won't go much deeper into this, except to say except your last sentence is utter nonsense. Have you looked at the figures on U.S. education standards recently? over 30% of high school "graduates" are functionally illiterate, one of the lowest performance rates for any industialized nation in the world.
It isn't jealousy, it's our arrogance and the way we BLEEP around in the internal affairs of other people's countries that has created these feelings.
As for ending foreign aid; I'm all for it, starting with a certain country in the Middle East I won't name, which we have propped up with handouts to the tune of some four times the cost of the entire Apollo Moon program.

No, it is not. Most every country in the world wants to have our culture. From the entire Eastern block to the Japanese. Everybody wants McDonald's, MTV, Playboy, Britney Spears, gas guzzling cars, Coca Cola, and fat kids with high cholestorol. The Chinese and all the other ex-communists want our economy and our money, and now busily taking that very economy from us. The Middle Easterners are jealous of our personal freedoms.

Have you looked at
>the figures on U.S. education
>standards recently? over 30% of
>high school "graduates" are functionally
>illiterate, one of the lowest
>performance rates for any industialized
>nation in the world.
>It isn't jealousy, it's our arrogance
>and the way we BLEEP
>around in the internal affairs
>of other people's countries that
>has created these feelings.

That sounds like a lot of self loathing. I'm sorry somebody made you feel that way.

Our country screws up all the time, we have had our government sticking its nose where it should not have been for a long time, (especially to destroy the "red menace") but you seem to be mistaking PRIDE for ARROGANCE.

Pick a better country, brother. Can't be done.

Nobody will make me feel ashamed for RAH RAH'ing my country too much. I got enough of that in college, where leftist socialism is considered normal. I am a great target for the hate fringe groups since I am a white, heterosexual, educated, employed, non criminal, pro-gun advocate AMERICAN.

>As for ending foreign aid; I'm
>all for it, starting with
>a certain country in the
>Middle East I won't name,
>which we have propped up
>with handouts to the tune
>of some four times the
>cost of the entire Apollo
>Moon program.

Who brought up foreign aid? We were talking about the FAI remember?

This is my final post on this.

I'm sorry, but yes it is, unfortunately...
You might take a look at History sometime, the citizens of the Roman Empire had exactly this same attitude, and eventually it was one of the main factors that led to their decline and collapse.

>
>Have you looked at
>>the figures on U.S. education
>>standards recently? over 30% of
>>high school "graduates" are functionally
>>illiterate, one of the lowest
>>performance rates for any industialized
>>nation in the world.
>>It isn't jealousy, it's our arrogance
>>and the way we BLEEP
>>around in the internal affairs
>>of other people's countries that
>>has created these feelings.
>
"That sounds like a lot of
>self loathing. I'm sorry
>somebody made you feel that
>way."

I don't, the statement happens to be accurate though.

"Our country screws up all the
>time, we have had our
>government sticking its nose where
>it should not have been
>for a long time, (especially
>to destroy the "red menace")
>but you seem to be
>mistaking PRIDE for ARROGANCE.
>
>Pick a better country, brother.
>Can't be done.
>

Ever been to Switzerland?
>
Nobody will make me feel ashamed
>for RAH RAH'ing my country
>too much. I got enough
>of that in college, where
>leftist socialism is considered normal.
> I am a great
>target for the hate fringe
>groups since I am a
>white, heterosexual, educated, employed, non
>criminal, pro-gun advocate AMERICAN."

There is a difference between boosting and boasting.

>>As for ending foreign aid; I'm
>>all for it, starting with
>>a certain country in the
>>Middle East I won't name,
>>which we have propped up
>>with handouts to the tune
>>of some four times the
>>cost of the entire Apollo
>>Moon program.
>
>Who brought up foreign aid?
>We were talking about the
>FAI remember?
>
>This is my final post on
>this."

I think DMoon mentioned foreign aid.

Yes I did mention it.

I like this country and no I havent been to Switzerland but I here it sucks to pay 50% in Taxes each year or more just to get community service type health care. Going there and living there are two different things of course.

Compairing Apples to Oranges though. The vast size of our Pop would make a situation like Switz impossible even if we did want it which we dont. Or at least I dont.

I like the USA and all our faults. I dont care to cram it down other countries throats though.

Also the illiteracy(cant spell to well myself) rate you quoted. Well I think the real problem is having parents who sit you down and make you be resposible for your work and get it done. The schools just give it to the kids and teach as best they can. There has to be work on the childs part to and that aint coming unless the parents get involved, about 99% of the time anyway.

I went to public school graduated college and attened SMU for extended studies. None of it english as you can tell. My parents helped me to learn when I was young about what it takes to get it done.

Here in the states that is just not there like it used to be. You can throw all the money there is at schools but it wont raise the education level. It just wont. You can give kids free rides into private schools if they dont work the fail out. Then they cry and say they didnt get a fair chance and some liberal makes them lower their standard so the kid who doesnt work hard and has no money gets a free ride. How do you expect the kid to produce if the system tailors around the kid and doesnt make him produce?

DMoon

I agree with some of this. I think you are thinking of Sweden, on the tax bit though. The Swiss have a cantonal system similar to the union states we are supposed to have. The Founding Fathers greatly admired the Swiss and their freedoms and devotion to them. Our original Militia system is based upon the Swiss model. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and as for guns they keep assault rifles (the REAL select-fire stuff) at home, like we were supposed to be able to do. They are the world's bankers, and no one (not even Hitler in WW-2) messes with them. They are still, in the modern age what the Founding Fathers wanted us to be.
I spend a lot of time in the three or four local school systems I do work in. I see the teachers and students and admin folks up close and personal, eight hours a day, sometimes weeks on end. A LOT of it is very depressing...

Yep my wife worked in the public school system for some years at grades 1-6. It was very depressing. The teachers dont stand a chance. Their hands are tied. Yet the parents of today expect the teachers to raise their children for them. But when they(kids) get in trouble the parent backs the kid and not the authority figure. Seen it time and time again. All the kid has to do is say "No I didn't" And the parent will side with kid and get huffed at the school. What a bunch of crap.

DMoon

Bingo.
Your wife must be a tough lady. It drives me up a wall, and I don't have to spend all day in a classroom. I was working on some cabling in the ceiling at one (middle school), and one black gentleman (teacher) said to me "Please drop something on my head so I don't have to come in here for a few days, make it heavy please."

I'd still choose to live hear in the U.S.

Doug certainly some of the things you say about our education system are true and you have a credible source (your wife)
Does she still teach? It sounds like she got frustrated and quit.
That is what I've noticed over the past 20 years of my dealings with school systems. Good Teachers have QUIT in droves for all of the reasons you mention along with one other. "They don't pay me enough to deal with this crap!"

catdaddy

I live here in the USA because I was born here, and unless any of you have American "Indian" blood, part of my ancestors (Choctaw) walked this soil long before any of the rest arrived.
It's not the prettiest, bestest place in the whole world, but it is my place right now.
I stay here because I espouse the doctrine of the Founding Fathers and Freedom: That all men (and women) deserve Freedom, and that that is the most precious of all gifts mankind has. I want to see this spread over the entire planet that the current junta in Washington D.C. is NOT doing a real swift job of making this happen I would like to see change.

Peace,

While I bow to no-one in my admiration for Paul's remarkable record I think it is important to always remember that he *is* Paul Walker and--like giants of the event before him--what he chooses to fly and the manner in which he flies it brings with it that cache of excellence. Don't think Paul doesn't know that and don't think that the fact didn't enter into his head when he developed his four stroke, Mustang, comparatively soft pattern for display in the USA.

The Paul Walkers of the world (like the Bob Giesekes and Bob Palmers of their day) are the Rudolph to stunt's reindeers (pardon the seasonal metaphore ) Beacons light the way for the rest to follow and that...I think...is more than a little bit of the reason for Paul's entire 2002 program. PLEASE NOTE THAT HIS IS A PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND OPINION AND IS IN NO WAY INTENDED TO SPEAK FOR PAUL.

Had Joe Bellcrank (sorry John, you picked it) decided to put the US Stunt world on notice about what needs to be done to get the attention of the rest of the world, his efforts would have been met with grande ennui (a big yawn)...and a down the list finish. When a Walker or a McDonald or a Palmer or an Aldrich (perhaps the ultimate example of molding stunt opinion) does so there will always be an assumption of correctness to the display because he is, after all...etc.

This isn't sour grapes. It is a reality of subjective competition that anyone who succeeds accepts. Winners are leaders by definition. Leaders are precedent setters by definition and set precedent by example. Precedents, by definition, alter the entire perspective upon which a subjective analysis is based.

Ergo, there's a bit more to it than Paul simply flying like the Chinese and the judges serindipitously (SP??) fallling in line.

>In regards to the entire thread,
>I have never seen so
>many guys react to "Pro-American"
>sentiment with so much hostility.
> Ion said nothing differenct
>than most of the guys
>who say we don't get
>a fair shake at the
>WC anyway. Why hammer
>him?
>
>I work for a Japanese company,
>I spout pro-American stuff all
>the time. I definately
>"buy American".

My only comment on this aspect of the discussion is that I take as much pride in my country and its accomplishments as anyone. That doesn't mean I don't respect and recognize that that pride shouldn't be used as blinders to reality. I find the *militantly* pro and anti nationality comments pretty much equally distasteful. It isn't a zero sum game. i.e. The fact that Billy is an exceptional pilot doesn't ipso facto mean HXP isn't.

That whole response was great. Very well said.

Brad

I've watched this thread develop, and there's a lot of sentiments expressed, some, no, most of them, on both sides have merit.

When it comes to our sport, I truely believe that we are all, with no regard to nationalism, pretty much the same, world over. As much as I would like to, I've never been to Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, South America, or the Middle East, I do hope to some day have the chance to visit some of these areas, but I dont expect this will alter my previous statement.

I have met Stunt pilots from Europe at the VSC, and the experience has only stregnthened my belief. I have been to Japan and a small part of China, and I know they are very much like us when it comes to this sport. I have had the experience of sitting for an entire afternoon with a fine bunch of Japanese modelors. Our language problems didn't interfere with the fun and enjoyment we had talking about our models.

FAI is what it is, Those involved know what the problems are, and they are trying to make it better, just as we in the US know what the problems here are, and we're trying to fix some of those. For many reasons, there will most likely always be areas of minor discord between the FAI and AMA rules. We can live with it. As they say, when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's only courtesy and respect for their way. I am willing to speculate that given time, both systems will move closer, rather than farther apart.

I appreciate Ion's clarification post. It confirms my suspicion. I believe I understand the motivation for the first post, politically incorrect as it was, far better now. Especially since I feel I know Ion well from our off-line posts and conversations. Ion is one of those individuals who is fearless in what he percieves as defending the rightous. He's not afraid to stand up and be counted when the chips are down. He won't facilate when the consequences are less than favorable to him.

This kind of person will speak out agianst what he percieves as an injustice. This type of person will stand with his friends forever no matter the outcome. I would prefer to have a friend like this than one I can't be sure of.

It is unfortunate that Ion expressed his opinion in the way he did, but, with his clarification post shedding further light on his motivation, I think my fellow forum posters should try and mend fences. Everone has a right to his opinions, but it should indeed be taboo to trash an individule. This whole thing has been a good learning experience for me.

I'm wondering why everything is spinning around?

Ah...

Reminds me of Torvill and Dean. Remember them?

I had an interesting conversation with someone who turned out to be a world class ice dancer (came in fourth at the US team trials, so he didn't go to the Olympics). I mentioned Torvill and Dean, and how their "Bolero" routine just blew me away when I watched it on TV. You know what he said? "They cheated!"

According to him, they could get away with stuff other pairs couldn't, because they were undisputedly the leaders of the sport at the time. During one of the Compulsory dances, they did a move that would have earned anyone a duck egg.

But then again, to the incognoscenti like me, I couldn't tell. To me, they were just amazing.

So what does this have to do with what we were discussing? Nothing, really. I just like going off on tangents.

Once you make your mark and then you just keep marking and marking and marking it really works for you. You show up and they already know you can kick butt at a moments notice. They expect it. You get yourself into a situation that already has you pretty high up on the charts before you even start. You dont get that easily though. Anyone who carries that kind of clout in their sport no matter what it is has it(clout) because of years of hard work determination and the winning record.

Paul's ability to kick butt on the circle is diffenently noticable. I have been on the receiving end as have many of you.

DMoon

>Soccer was inented in England, and even though Brazilians are
>the penta champions the rules remain the English ones.

I think this is a pretty bad analogy. Aside from the rescinding of the BOM rule, and the institution of K factors, there really is no difference between F2B and "AMA" CLPA rules. The descriptions of the maneuvers are the same, the supposed geometries described in the rules are the same. For the most part, the rest of the world is still, for better or for for worse, still using American rules.

The rules aren't ehat makes the difference. The difference is the judging. Unlike Soccer, Stunt scores are subjective. The ONLY way you're going to have convergence between the aesthetics of two sets of judges that live thousands of miles apart would be an extensive (not to mention expensive) exchange program.

(The only really subjective things in soccer, I think, are the Offside rule and the Diving Rule, and I don't think the latter is English. Is it important? Ask the Italians!)

As for the Americans giving in to "outside rule-making", you might take comfort from the fact that Americans still buy milk in US gallons, and measure wingspans in inches. Hell will freeze over before the BOM rule goes away.

It won't take that long. I predict 15 years.

By the that time, there won't be enough guys left flying in Open at the Nats who will care.

DMoon

In my opinion, the Internet will be or is the Genesis of a resurgence of even greater strength in CL Precision Stunt. ARFs will be there finally in force, but the traditional skills will still be the best way to learn, participate and compete. Look at the cottage industries such as Randy Smith, Tom Dixon, Windy Urtnowski and even our local hobby shop, Virginia HobbySport, which have experienced much interest and business just from the World Wide Web. No longer are the suppliers slaves to word of mouth and local business.

Tom,
That is an excellent observation!
So glad that you and I can occasionally agree on something.

regards,
catdaddy

Zilla, the BOM may be gone by then but top competitors that build the best for themselves only will not! I seriously doubt that when that day comes that models built by others will rule the day as a matter of course! Sure they may be good, but it just isnt anybody that can fly one well, and I doubt that some newbie that bought his way in will know how to get one in trim without first knowing some of the fundamentals of proper construction, aerodynamics and powertrain. Cost alone may be prohibitive and thousand dollar crashes in training will be certainly slow up the ready built processes to competition flying even if the BOM were gone. I might buy one but will always sport my own works proudly at the Nats.

Well, me too. I just wouldn't stop someone else from buying an airplane. In 15 years we will need all the turnout we can get, right?

Brad

So do not necessarily look for any ryhme or reason for the modified pattern rules. They may not have any basis in reality. At times it just may be the result of the whim of some loacl expert.

I remember the agony it was configuring telecom networks to work properly in France, because of the oddball standards that they chose to use.

I mean you do not have to dig too deep to find examples of this flaky mentality. I believe it was the french judge that was the center of attention during the last winter olympics.

However, the FAI is NOT French, as the "F" suggests it is a federation, the French get no more votes than anyone else - if it has a fault, it is due to the management by committee approach. We all know that is how camels got designed!

The current proposed revisions to the F2B rules are being chaired by a vastly repected Swiss, who is doing a superb job of sorting out all the various national interests.

If you want to influence this process, lobby your FAI delegate - my experience is that the opinion of the US delegates is greatly respected - on that, my experience is as a CD at a world champs.

On telecommunications, how many countries use NTSC, how many use PAL - I dont know, I'm asking!
Cheers, Dave

>Not to offend anyone here, but
>I also have quite a
>bit of international experience. And
>the FAI is headquartered in
>France, and well that should
>explain everything. Seems that for
>some peculiar reason when it
>comes to standards the French
>almost enjoy making what ever
>is created elsewhere different.
....

>It is easy to see how the
>AMerican pattern became bastardised. The
>truely bizarre thing that it
>does not have to work
>as well or better than
>the established standards (because many
>time it just dos'nt) Just
>so that it is different.
>
>
>So do not necessarily look for
>any ryhme or reason for
>the modified pattern rules. They
>may not have any basis
>in reality. At times it
>just may be the result
>of the whim of some
>loacl expert.

Peter,

In previous posts, you have demonstrated that you really do not understand the FAI CL Aerobatics event in international competition or anything about the FAI F2B rules. Your "telecom experience" has absolutely no relevance to how the FAI is structured, how rules are generated and changed, or how international contests are run. The French have had no more influence on the F2B rules than any other representatives from any other nation. There is basically no difference between the AMA pattern and the FAI pattern regarding its description in terms of sizes, shapes, altitudes, bottoms, intesections, corners or any other parameters that define the Aerobatics Pattern. If anything, the FAI pattern description and the judge's guide is superior to our AMA rulebook. To make a comment that the FAI pattern is somehow materially different than our AMA pattern is just plain wrong. And to suggest, even by innuendo, the the French have resorted to chicanery to somehow skew the F2B rules is just plain wrong.

I wonder if you even know that the primary language used in international competition and for the rules is English.

Keith