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Why no Stabilators in PA? (Pics attached!)

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 19 of 19 known posts recovered

pauleyp · Dec 21, 2002 05:29 PM

#0 source
Why does today-think remain with the stabilizer/elevator setup?

Why have stabilators ("all-flying tail") not succeeded in stunt?

Attached a pic of Fred Bachl's "Queens Pawn" of 1966 (Classic legal!) which is the only stabilator-equipped stunter I know of. As I'm sure there were others, lets get some pictures up!

The stunter...

[photo not recovered: 3e04f7a32b54946d.jpg]

and a close-up of the stabilator...

[photo not recovered: 3e04f8072bb5a75d.jpg]

This was pretty advanced stuff for 1966! Fred's more recent stunters also have stabilators.

OK, let the fray begin!

Paul P.

Brett Buck · Dec 21, 2002 07:05 PM

#1 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-02 AT 07:07 PM (CDT)

>Why does today-think remain with the
>stabilizer/elevator setup?
>
>Why have stabilators ("all-flying tail") not
>succeeded in stunt?
>This was pretty advanced stuff for
>1966! Fred's more recent stunters
>also have stabilators.
>
>OK, let the fray begin!


Might want to check:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID1/1662.html

Brett

Steve Helmick · Dec 21, 2002 07:13 PM

#2 source
I came across a picture in an old M.A.N. of a model that looked a lot like an Ares or Cobra, but had a stabilator. The guy holding it was Paul Walker. I took the issue to the club meeting, asked Paul about this, but don't recall the answer. There are some serious issues about control ratios to consider, and eliminating the "humps" after the sharp corners may be impaired. Steve

grzly23 · Dec 21, 2002 07:36 PM

#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Dec-24-02 AT 02:16 PM (CDT)

Back in the early 50s, Bob Dailey, the inventor of the I-beam Stunt ship, built some ships with stabilators. He said that his stabilator controlled ships were his best ones. You can read more about this in the I-beam series by Fred Carnes in the December 1995 through July 1996 issues of Flying Models Magazine. Rod Pharis built a CL I-Beam Stunter named the Jupiter and it had a full flying horizontal tail. After much experimentation, he got it working and flew it in competition. He said it would turn on a dime. I talked to Rod Pharis, he lives in southern California now and he helped me design my own stabilator controlled stunt ship. I got it to work and work well, but I made the horizontal tail removable and went back to a conventional elevator arrangement. For me the conventional tail gave me crisper turns and better directional control than the stabilator did.

([photo not recovered: 3e08c0593ff067aa.jpg])

Tom McClain

pauleyp · Dec 21, 2002 08:04 PM

Stabilator pivot-point...#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-03 AT 11:06 AM (CDT)
 
x

JMS · Dec 23, 2002 11:46 AM

#5 source
If I can correctly remember history (and aerodynamics), the flying tail (stabilator) is needed for supersonic flight. (Aerodynamics majors out there care to comment?) The conventional elevator hinged to a fixed stabilizer was shown to be ineffective when approaching Mach 1. The one-piece stabilator solved this problem.

Because I have never flown any control line aircraft with stabilators, I cannot comment on their effectiveness. However, since they appear to be a development to deal with control for high speed flight, I see no apparent advantage to our application. Has anybody actually flown a control line plane with a stabilator? If so, how did its performance differ from a stunter with a conventional elevator?

By the way, I believe the Cox PT-19 (the plastic trainer) has a stabilator. It has been over 30 years since I have seen one of these, so correct me if I am wrong. And, with the performance of Cox planes being somewhat poor, this is not going to be a very good example of a CL plane with stabilator.

grzly23 · Dec 23, 2002 01:46 PM

#6 source

Has anybody actually
>flown a control line plane
>with a stabilator? If
>so, how did its performance
>differ from a stunter with
>a conventional elevator?
>
>And, with the performance of
>Cox planes being somewhat poor,
>this is not going to
>be a very good example
>of a CL plane with
>stabilator.

Look at my earlier post on this subject, #3. Stabilators do work well on all types of aircraft, be they supersonic or conventional. Late model competitive gliders and Piper General Aviation aircraft such as the PA-28 series, Warrior, Archer and Arrow come to mind.
Tom McClain

Tom McClain

kdheath · Dec 23, 2002 02:40 PM

#7 source
I have built and flown stabilator equipped sailplanes with great success, and spent a number of happy hours in Piper Cherokees (very nice airplane). But I am deterred by the thought of making a mount/hinge/horn system that will hold up to the flight loads imposed by PA. The gliders had simple brass tube and wire pivots set into a FG fuselage. They were fairly flimsy. Maybe this is a job for Windy and his autoclave?

JMS · Dec 23, 2002 04:13 PM

#8 source
I agree regarding the structural problems. All of the shear and bending loads would have to be reacted by the pivot mechanism. And, wouldn't you need a low friction bearing here in order to prevent binding and allow free movement under load? I would never say that the stabilator is unworkable for CL stunt. Someday, someone may come up with something. However, unless such a system proves to produce a substantial improvement in performance, I see no reason to complicate things. The conventional hinged elevator works just fine for our purposes.

grzly23 · Dec 23, 2002 05:58 PM

#9 source
There is one guy who recently has made this work. That being Bob Zambelli of the Philly Phylers when he made a 4 stroke powered semi-scale stunt ship of his PA-28 Archer. I have seen this 40 size ship fly at the Brodak and Philly Phylers contests and it does quite well. Bob Dailey made it work in the 50s and Rod Pharis in the late 50s to early 60s. I will call Bob and Rod and ask them to elaborate on their solution to this problem. It should be interesting to hear how they solved it.


Merry Christmas,

Tom McClain

Iskandar Taib · Dec 25, 2002 06:10 AM

#10 source
For Howard Rush's quest for reducing hinge moments: won't elevator area balances do?

About why (American) Combat planes usually have stabilators: they're more convenient to build, and easier to repair, given our fondness for booms.

I'd guess the biggest reason to use a stabilator would be a possible reduction in drag. Perhaps why the sailplane people like them.

Trostle · Dec 25, 2002 02:04 PM

#11 source
I would like to summarize what I have read and what I have experienced. As suggested by Brett early on in this thread, this subject comes up every several months or so. Brett also gave how to access the long thread that started last April. There is some good information in that.

Also in this thread have been the statements that all-flying stabilators are being used in full scale aviation, including lights planes (some Pipers for example), gliders and supersonic aircraft.

In the case of the light planes and gliders, an all-flying stabilator allows the use of a smaller horizontal tail surface, thereby reducing drag. Those aircraft are not looking for extreme maneuverability and recovery stability after completing a hard inside or outside maneuver. In the case of the sailplane, the reduced drag is probably a paramount consideration and the likely increased structural weight to accommodate the stabilator is not a major problem.

In the case of supersonic aircraft, the stabilator is used for an entirely different reason. Primarily, the stabilator provides positive longitudinal control in the high sub-sonic and supersonic regimes where compressibility and the formation of shock waves seriously impact the effectiveness of a conventional horizontal stabelizer/elevator configuration.

It is interesting to note that full scale aerobatics designs typically do not use the all-flying stabilator.

I played around with an all-flying stabilator in the late 50's when I was in college.. (Though I will have to admit that I did not know much about flying a competition pattern - some will say that I still don't - but I knew a lot less then.) I had two models, basicly the same design, one with a stabilator and the other with a conventional tail. There were structural problems, added weight, and I felt the model with the conventional tail flew better. Enough so that I have not ever felt it necessary to try it again.

In the same thread that Brett referenced above, "Bare" explains quite well the differences between combat and stunt models and what is expected of a stunt model. (These combat guys sometimes come up with some pretty good stuff.) Anyway, "Bare" states:

"tails are longer and larger to overcome the flaps opposite pitching moment and to stop the model from rotating at the precise moment. Part of the tail function in stopping the maneuver is supplied by the stabilizer acting as arrow tail feathers to maintain that straight line for which you are searching. A stabilator does not have this built in stabilizing effect. A stabilator would not be particularly worthwhile to experiment with on a precision aerobatic ship, because you would never find the necessary recovery stability to match the current stab/elevator combination."

I think another way to explain this is that the general consensus of some who have tried all-flying stabilators on a stunt ship is that they do not allow the model to precisely track through a maneuver nor to recover "flat" when completing a maneuver, particularly from the square turns.

As Ted suggested ealier in this thread and has been discussed in other threads, there are structural problems to overcome with attendant weight increases in a location that normally needs to be as light as possible. Then Tom McClain comes along with his "F-104" with the all-flying high T-tail stabilator. Maybe he is on to something that nobody has yet found about how to get a stabilator to work better on a stunt ship than a normal stab/elevator configuration. There may be solutions out there not yet refined that could pave the way to a "major revolution" in the pondorously slow evolution of CL stunt design.

Keith

Keith

grzly23 · Dec 25, 2002 05:50 PM

#12 source
I made two removable horizontal tails for the NF-104, a normal elevator hinged at 50% of the chord and a stabilator of the same size and shape hinged at 18% of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC) on surface that is 24 inches long, Average Chord 5.25 inches and total area of 126 sq in. The tail area is 22% of the wing area of 583 sq in.

My experience with a stabilator on my take apart NF-104 Starfighter, both wing and horizontal tail, yielded the following:

The first six flights of the Starfighter were with the normal elevator to get the ship trimmed for tip weight, leadout rake as well as elevator to flap ratio. I had to change the original 1 to 1 flap to elevator ratio to approximately 2 to 3 with the elevator having more movement. Once trimmed the Starfighter showed itself to just as competitive as my other ships. Outsides were just as crisp as insides with equal movement.

The seventh flight was with the 18% hinged stabilator and it flew stable and straight from takeoff. But, the control pressures were extremely heavy. It took a very heavy hand to get the ship to maneuver as the stabilator restoration loads were quite large. Outside maneuvers were challenging as the ship would only make very large radius turns. I took the ship home after 3 flights with the 18% stabilator. I spent the next several days and rehinged the stab at 26% MAC and then on the following weekend went out and tested it again.

The NF-104 flew well from takeoff to level flight again with no discernable hunting or abnormal flight characteristics. I tried inside loops and was pleased at the low control loads and quick response of the plane to control commands. I then did inside squares, triangles, outside loops and retrimmed the flight controls for the stabilator. I reasoned that a stabilator of the same dimensions of a conventional elevator tail would only take half of the movement of the elevator. My thesis was confirmed. I then tried inside and outside loops, inverted flight, horizontal eights and square eights and then vertical eights, hour glass, overhead eight and finished up with the cloverleaf. I found some pitch sensitivity in landing after the engine quit. I fixed that later by adding a Prather 1 ounce spinner weight on the engine propeller shaft.

I then flew the Starfighter with the stabilator for over 10 flights and found it to be manageable with no quirks. The only anomaly I have observed is some stabilator flutter during inverted flight. I plan on balancing the stab dynamically to see if this will reduce or eliminate the flutter. But, in the interim I am using the elevator exclusively because it is crisper in maneuvers and hold a point better coming out of the turn.

This has been quite and experience and I am glad I did it. It has been fun and I have for the first time designed my own CL Precision Stunt ship which is quite competitive. It presents itself very well in flight and stands out as a very different aircraft than the rest. It is take apart, has anhedral in the wing, has a very high T-tail and yet stays up with the rest.

Merry Christmas and Tight Lines,

Tom McClain

Tom McClain

Bob Zambelli · Dec 27, 2002 07:26 AM

#13 source
I patterned my Little Cherokee after my 1977 Cherokee Warrior and decided to stay as close to "real" as possible, including quadruple taper wing, trike gear and full flying tail. To the best of my knowledge, every Cherokee ever made features a full flying (stabilator) tail.
The model was a challenge in that I wanted all linkage to remain internal. The tail pivots on two precision ball bearings, pressed into a molded carbon fiber tube which is in turn epoxied into the fuselage. A smaller .250 OD carbon rod passes through the bearings and half of each stabilator is mounted to this rod with 4-40 bolts. I machined the horn from 6061-T6 aluminum and it clamps to the center of the rod - passing down through a machined slot.
Since I'm not familiar with the priciples that would apply to the stabilator, I consulted with Bill Netzeband and used his suggestions regarding the for-and-aft ratio for pivot placement.
He was right on and it is absolutlely the tightest turning plane I've ever flown - unfortunately, not the smoothest. I used the limits of the suggested ratio - 25% of TOTAL chord from the lead edge and is is just a bit jumpy. Narrowing the handle line spacing had cured virtually all of that tendancy. I will eventually modify the ratio to around 20%. Easy to do as the tail is removeable.
The plane is around 550 square inches and weighs 36 ounces complete with throttle and brakes. Power is a SAITO .30 which flys for around 6 minutes on 1 1/2 ounces of fuel. The throttle alllows touch-and-go as well as full stop landings with the brakes. Once when my neddle valve setting was off, I just landed at idle, walked out to it and made an adjustment, took off and finished the flight. Windy has a lot of it on tape.
It was concieved, designed and built as a sport/fun plane - nothing more. The performance, however, surprised me and I would not hesitate to enter it in any P.A. event. It as also the most fun-to-fly of any plane I've ever had and definitely a crowd pleaser.
It was not an easy project but I would gladly share all the building details with anyone interested.
Bob Z

Bob Zambelli · Dec 28, 2002 07:55 AM

#14 source
I forgot to add - I also put cathedral in the wing - not to scale but there nevertheless. And, there is absolutely no difference in stability upright-to-inverted.
Bob

Iskandar Taib · Dec 28, 2002 08:21 AM

#15 source
Cathedral? ^_-

Ty M> · Dec 29, 2002 09:05 AM

#16 source
The real nice thing about old model plane magazines is the sketch sections. In an Air Trails I recieved yesterday, Oct 1950, there is a sketch of Bob Dailey's "Pivoting stab connected tostunt flaps". It pivots forward of the center of the chord at about the 40% position on 1/4" ID brass tube. The aprt that really got me was the control horn is connected to the stab by two long wires, about 3 inches long, in front of the stab. From looking at the drawing and the geometry involved, that stab did not move a lot!! If the drawing is accurate and not just a quciky sketch, I would say the stab could only move up and down 10 degrees each way. By the way, it says Bob Dailey was from Ferndale, Michigan. Ferndale??.
-

Currell · Dec 29, 2002 09:22 AM

#17 source
By the way,
>it says Bob Dailey was
>from Ferndale, Michigan. Ferndale??.
>-

Want to make something of it?

Just above 8 Mile Road, which your fave rapper, Eminem, is making infamous.

Currell

Ty M. · Dec 29, 2002 09:27 AM

#18 source
Gotta laugh. I first heard of Ferndale in a TV sitcom that took place in a town called Ferndale.(Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, a satire on soap opras). Never occured to me there was such a place. And here I thought he was from "Detroit". I love the way it is laid out, each main road is one mile from the next. I or rather my wife has a friend that lives in Royal Oak. Her ex refered to "it" as La Belle, Da twaa.